Episode 119 - Ivana Damnjanović, Singidunum University
Those that walk with one foot in the education world and one foot in the travel industry know: Transformational Travel is here, it’s accessible and available, and it’s intertwined in the way people learn and experience the world.
Feeling the Magic of the Moment
This week’s Soul of Travel Podcast guest is Ivana Damnjanović, associate professor of sustainable tourism at Singidunum University in Serbia. She focuses her professional interests on sustainable tourism, specifically in protected areas, as well as community wellbeing, amplifying the regenerative and transformational potential of tourist experiences through storytelling, wellness through recreation and adventure, and nature-based tourism.
In the episode, Christine shares a story of listening to a podcast with her girls and hearing about cultivating awe by making sure you see a sunrise or a sunset each day. Christine was thrilled to recognize the approach as transformational travel.
Ivana agrees: Creating language about transformational, sustainable, and regenerative travel is essential to reaching travelers and tourists where they are. Getting to know the needs of travelers is similar to getting to know her students; as a professor, Ivana ensures she is teaching the person, rather than the idea, to facilitate their learning rather than give them information.
As tourism professionals, identifying your goals for your clients, tour guests, or colleagues is crucial to designing experiences and conversations to guide them toward powerful experiences.
Connections between Education and Travel
Education and travel both challenge you to put yourself in someone’s shoes, understand different perspectives, and take in new information intellectually and physically.
Educational and travel experiences can help you get from one point to another within yourself. Often, travelers want to get to something new, or “the new you,” but don’t always know where or who they want to be.
As travel professionals, our role is to get better at what we do so we can begin perceiving something hidden in others and try to imagine – and help them imagine – how to realize the hidden potential, talents, or access to joy that may be waiting to be discovered.
When it comes to experiences, we’re wired to “buy products,” not experiences, or to seek an answer we already know. Ivana and Christine share that we most often know what we don’t want, and unless we experience it, we don’t know what it is we do want to repeat. Ivana encourages us to care and find compassion, which opens the door to curiosity and connection.
Travel Professionals: How do you use language around transformational travel?
Leaders in transformational travel and travel education often rely on academic or abstract language to describe the series of events and shifts that occur when travelers adopt a transformation mindset. But Ivana encourages the movement toward using words that…
Align with what people want to achieve
Speak to the gap between where people are and where they want to be
Describe the gap they want to jump over
Find what people are truly looking for
Discover how to connect those desires with sustainable and transformational travel
Much like journalists tailor their language to different audiences of potential travelers, Ivana suggests that leaders in sustainable and transformational travel shift their language to be used by tourism professionals and travelers.
As Head of Research with the Transformational Travel Council, Ivana is leading current research into translating the academic language of transformational travel into language that can be utilized by people who deliver experiences in the tourism industry – and for travelers themselves. The TTC research team is compiling this information in a white paper due to be published in 2023. Ivana and her team look to bridge the gap between what researchers have already discovered about experiential learning and transformation – and what has been scientifically proven – and the do-ers of transformational travel to be equipped and supported to improve upon their practices. The ultimate goal is to support travelers to maximize their experiences and go into the rest of their lives ready to make an even bigger positive impact on the global community.
Tourism is a tool – or a pathway – to create a better world. Transformational travel is not a type of travel but rather a philosophy and approach to travel in which people look for opportunities to make positive and lasting impacts on themselves and on the world.
““Travel and education are about relationships. And relationships are born where people care about each other.””
Soul of Travel Episode 119 At a Glance
In this conversation, Christine and Ivana discuss:
The language of transformational travel
How we share transformational travel experiences
Ways to bring students and industry professionals into the conversation of transformational travel
The role of education in creating a positive ripple effect
How both travel and education are most rewarding as co-created experiences
Passport equity and other barriers keeping folks from physical and academic equity
Join Christine now for this soulful conversation with Ivana Damnjanović.
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Related UN Sustainable Development Goals
Sustainable Development Goal #3: Ensure healthy lives and promote well-being for all at all ages.
Sustainable Development Goal #4: Ensure inclusive and equitable quality education and promote lifelong learning opportunities for all.
Sustainable Development Goal #8: Promote sustained, inclusive and sustainable economic growth, full and productive employment and decent work for all.
Sustainable Development Goal #11 Make cities and human settlements inclusive, safe, resilient and sustainable.
Sustainable Development Goal #12: Ensure sustainable consumption and production patterns.
Sustainable Development Goal #13: Take urgent action to combat climate change and its impacts.
Sustainable Development Goal #15: Protect, restore and promote sustainable use of terrestrial ecosystems, sustainably manage forests, combat desertification, and halt and reverse land degradation and halt biodiversity loss.
Sustainable Development Goal #17: Strengthen the means of implementation and revitalize the Global Partnership for Sustainable Development.
Resources & Links Mentioned in the Episode
To learn more about The Transformational Travel Council, visit the website at https://www.transformational.travel/.
Follow Ivana on your favorite social media network!
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ivana-damnjanovic-168b482b/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ivana.gracey/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ivana.damnjanovic.07/
About the Soul Of Travel Podcast
Soul of Travel honors the passion and dedication of people making a positive impact in the tourism industry. In each episode, you’ll hear the stories of women who are industry professionals, seasoned travelers, and community leaders. Our expert guests represent social impact organizations, adventure-based community organizations, travel photography and videography, and entrepreneurs who know that travel is an opportunity for personal awareness and a vehicle for global change.
Join us to become a more educated and intentional traveler as you learn about new destinations, sustainable and regenerative travel, and community-based tourism. Industry professionals and those curious about a career in travel will also find value and purpose in our conversations.
We are thought leaders, action-takers, and heart-centered change-makers who inspire and create community. Join host Christine Winebrenner Irick for these soulful conversations with our global community of travelers exploring the heart, the mind, and the globe.
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Credits. Christine Winebrenner Irick (Host, creator, editor). Ivana Damnjanović (Guest). Original music by Clark Adams. Editing, production, and content writing by Carly Oduardo.
Join me for my Women’s Wilderness and Yoga Retreat in Alaska in March 2023!
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We’ll explore the wilderness with Molly and her dogs by snowshoeing and dogsled, connect with members of the local community to learn about living in this remote environment, and enjoy a serene daily yoga practice and vegan meals – all while keeping our eye out for the beautiful Northern Lights that like to show off their magic this time of year.
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Soul of Travel Episode 119 Transcript
Women’s travel, transformational travel, sustainable travel, social entrepreneurship, transformation education, regenerative travel
Christine:
Ivana Damnjanovic is an educator, a scientist, and a writer, a doctor of philosophy. She is an associate professor living in Serbia, who focuses her professional interests on sustainable tourism, specifically in protected areas, community wellbeing, regenerative and transformational potential of tourist experience through storytelling, wellness, through recreation, adventure, and nature-based tourism. As a lecturer, she's devoted to equipping future tourism professionals to be knowledgeable and creative, intentional and dedicated, mindful and empathetic, and recognize tourism as a milieu of stories to collect and guard, create and pass on. In our conversation, Ivana and I speak about the language of transformational travel, how we share these experiences and ways to bring students and industry professionals into the conversation. She also talks about the importance of education to create a ripple effect and how both travel and education are most rewarding as co-created experiences and the exciting research she's a part of. At the Transformational Travel Council, we also touch on the important topic of passport equity and other barriers that keep people from being in the same place physically as well as academically. Love these soulful conversations? We rely on listener support to produce our podcast. You can now support me in amplifying the voices of women by making a donation on PayPal. The link is in the show notes. Join me now for my soulful conversation with ov.
Christine:
Welcome to Soul of Travel podcast. I am so excited today to be joined by Ivana Damnjanovic, which we sat here and practiced, and I knew I would do wrong anyway, but wasn't really purposely trying, and I think we'll talk later about why. Um, either way, I'm so happy that you're here. We've had some great conversations in preparation for this interview, both here on Zoom, but also we're so lucky to get to spend a little time together in Slovenia, uh, late last year. And I cannot wait to share, uh, all of your wisdom with my listeners. So welcome to the podcast.
Ivana:
Thank you very much. I'm really, really happy to be here. I mean, we can talk about so many, you know, different things and we feel passionate to lot, so yeah. Yeah. I'm really fortunate to be here with you.
Christine:
Thank you so much. Yeah, I think our only problem will be trying to stay within one hour and not get too excited and off on many tangents, but I do feel like all of the ones that we've landed on before have always had a lot of value for me anyway. So wherever we go, I think we can let the conversation take us. Um, perfect. As we get started, I would love for you to just introduce yourself, tell my listeners a little bit about who you are, and then we'll learn a little more about your journey.
Ivana:
Yeah. Great. Well, um, you know, a lot of times people tell me like words to describe yourself, so, um, if that's the case, then I would say that I'm a sustainable tourism specialist, an educator, author, project manager. But, um, more specifically, I've been, um, a professor, tourism professor at, um, uh, Singidunum University in Serbia, where I come from over leave. Um, and, um, yeah, that's a long time, but I've been doing a lot of things, um, uh, parallel to that, of course, for, uh, the pa past almost two decades. And one of the recent, um, roles that I have is, um, being, um, head of the research in the Transformation Travel Council. And, um, I'm sure we'll talk about, uh, what we do there, uh, because it's, um, what, what I spend most of my energy and time now. Um, but beside that, I mean, I'm probably the most prominent thing that I am is an educator.
Ivana:
Um, so a higher, higher education level. Um, and, um, trying, you know, just to equip future, future tourism specialists, uh, for the new way that we look at tourism, um, because today, you know, we, we say sustainable tourism, but what other kind of tourism can we hope for than sustainable? So, um, basically that, that, and then I also, I have been a vice dean for international corporation for quite to quite a while, <laugh> over a dec over a decade and a half. Um, and that means that I, uh, work on project for students to, uh, you know, spend a semester at Foreign Partner University, um, mostly in Europe and welcoming, um, foreign students to our university and spending time with us. So I think it actually, um, you know, improves and enhances and even transforms people in their education experience. So, and that, that's, that's where my passion is.
Christine:
<laugh>. Thank you. Uh, well, to start, uh, to kind of see your journey, I know that you and I talked about some moments of serendipity and mentorship that guided you toward sustainable tourism. And I think I love that so much because I had similar experiences where I kind of knew things I loved, and I knew things that I'd get really excited about in learning about and having conversations about, but I didn't really know, I didn't see the through line. And somebody, at one point I was taking pictures of their children while I was in college. That's how I was paying for college. And they mentioned a woman that had this company focused on educational travel and that, you know, the way she talked about travel is the way I was talking about travel, and we definitely should meet. And that ended up taking me into my master's degree and kind of down this path. Uh, but I would love for you to share a little bit about what that was like for you. How did you kind of uncover that this is the direction that you wanted to go?
Ivana:
Yeah, well, uh, uh, probably very, very similar to your way, but my story goes like, yes, <laugh>. Well, you know, like, um, when I was even a child, you know, I was always, me and my brother were, were always spending time in nature and, um, you know, gathering, um, stray animals and my, our moms support with that. So it was always about the nature and some kind of childlike ex, um, you know, explorations if you can. But she never was professional, and I was always thinking about her books and everything. I was always, you know, looking at it like a fairytale profession, even though I didn't know what it actually means. And, uh, I, the program was canceled back then.
Ivana:
Right. So, um, you know, ever since I was a child, me and my brother spent time in, in, in nature and, you know, um, gathering and helping stray animals, and we had, uh, support from our mom. And, um, you know, uh, at the same time, my mom, um, uh, she, she graduated from tourism, but was never professionally involved in that. But it kind of opened up a, a door for me because it always looked like a fairytale profession for me. Uh, and I wanted to go down that path, but I couldn't because the, the program in my town was canceled at the time. So I went on to study English language and literature. And, um, after that, when I wanted to go to master's degree, um, you know, I couldn't go on to English language and literature, but the tourism course was open. I was like, okay, that's it.
Ivana:
So that now is the time. Go for it. And that's what I did. But, you know, I never knew anything about what kind of tourism or what aspect of tourism I, I liked cause I didn't know much. Right. And, um, I had a, a great professor, my mentor, how he, um, you know, streamlined me into, into what I do today, is he asked me, what do you like doing? What do you do in your free time? And, uh, back at that time, I was, um, uh, full-time and very dedicated member of a young researchers society here, which is by the way, the, the oldest in the country. And I was a, a cave explorer. And, um, as cardiologist, I was like, that's what I like to do. And he said, how about, you know, sustainable tourism and protected areas and national parts? And I said, no more.
Ivana:
That's it. I found it. And, you know, the more I learned and the more I read, I could actually see, um, you know, the, the way I imagined travel and the way I spent my time gonna travel. That was it. And, and it, it's like, this is the perfect, perfect thing for me. And then when I fell in love with that, I just went on from my master's degree to my PhD degree in the same area. So that's that. That's kind of it. And then, you know, you never planned for a PhD. You never planned, sorry, that's, that's my daughter. So, um, uh, you never planned for that. My friends, they all think that I had this grand master plan to go and do a PhD and, uh, become a professor and so on. No, and I think that's a beautiful thing about life, because when you look at the hindsight, you, you kind of see the story, but while you're in it, you, you can't actually, but it, it was, for me, it was important just to follow, um, your, you know, your passion and what you like doing, and can you make your professional outta it.
Ivana:
Yeah. So I guess, I guess serendipitous to, to get me here.
Christine:
<laugh>. Yeah. I, I think it seems like such an easy question, but I don't think a lot of us have someone who asks us what we love <laugh>, and then what you can do from there. I think a lot of times we just, you know, hear about a certain thing, or our parents had a profession or a, a mentor along the way, and we just think, well, that seems like that would be good <laugh>. But it, it's never, uh, not never, but it's often not from that curiosity of what you love, what you're passionate about, what you wanna spend all your time thinking about and talking about. And, um, I think that if, if someone asks you that and sends you along the right path, that's such a beautiful gift, um, for you and for everyone else who gets to be around you. I know we were talking a little bit about your teaching style and how your, your students really feel like you spend time getting to know them. And I, I think that's a part of this, right? Because you really love what you're doing and you also value who they are and the opportunity to shape them and teach to them. Not just teach, but really to teach to your students.
Ivana:
Yeah, I mean, for me, it's, um, really important for my own development, um, professional and personal, is the fact that I, that I teach. I mean, and I don't really like the word teach. I mean, I'm, I imagine myself being, um, a facilitator, uh, of an educational process or educational experience because, you know, um, many times my students and I, and I beg them to do that, um, to disagree with me or challenge, challenge my viewpoint because, you know, younger generations, they do have different, um, insights into our world and, um, that, that's really important for you to think about who you are and where you are and where everything is going and what your role in it is. So yeah, I think that that's a blessing kind of. Yeah. <laugh>.
Christine:
Yeah. And how amazing for, for students in that space, because I know a lot of, I spent a lot of time just feeling like I was memorizing things or just like moving, going through the motions of education, but not really finding myself. And you're allowing your students to do both things at the same time. And then I think the other thing that's so valuable is then you still get to learn and grow because you're not just sharing the same thing over and over with students, you know, just like going through the motions. Either you are getting a, an exchange. And I love that you said that, like facilitating this experience, not just teaching, like it's a, a co-created educational opportunity, <laugh>.
Ivana:
Exactly. Exactly. I mean, um, you know, I, I try to give them an opportunity to see something that they, they never seen before, uh, especially when it comes to sustainable tourism. And then of course, I drop in a little bit, um, at least of regenerative approach and transformational approach and so on. It's totally new for them. And they, you know, may not even grasp it, but if I get them exposed to just thinking about it, um, then they might find themselves and might not mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But I think that's the point of education, giving people opportunities to find themselves and find their passion and try to do what my mentor and my professors did for me. Of course, I don't know the best way to do it, but I, what I do know is how not to do it mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So yeah, we're just, you know, making the new path. And, you know, I'm, I'm not alone in this. There are a lot of my colleagues, not only my university, but universities all over the world who I cooperated with. They, they're, we agree. And that, that's good because you're not the only one there and it's good.
Christine:
Yeah. Um, I love that you were talking about the ways that you can kind of bring different components into the conversation too, and just see where they land. And we talked a lot about how we can really convey some of the language of both transformational travel and sustainable travel, and how we can have those conversations in different circles. And also how important it is to have conversations outside of your peer circles. Like, obviously you and I could have this conversation all day long and it would look one way, but I think it's also important for us to, to have conversations in different areas because it, it allows us to kind of hone the language we use, but also to kind of see how it resonates with different people. Um, and one story that I wanted to share, and I, I think I shared this with you, but would love to share here, is kind of the awareness for me that cultivating awe, while that isn't something people understand, what it feels like, they understand.
Christine:
And I was listening to a news story, and they were talking about how one way that people can feel a real passion for life is to cultivate awe in their life. And a way to do that is to see either the sunrise or the sunset each day. And I was listening to that with my girls, and I, I was so excited, and they were like, what are you excited? They just told us to watch the sunset, you know? And I said, this is transformational travel. What they're talking about is like how you feel and the way the world opens up and the way you see yourself in it. And like, they kind of got it, but they definitely knew how cool it is to see the sunrise and like the magic of that moment. So I would love to kind of talk about what language we can use to share these powerful experiences as travelers and as travel designers to really share this story.
Ivana:
Yeah. It's, um, actually really important because, um, it doesn't matter how important your story is unless you're able to convey it the right way to the right audience. So if you use the same language all the time, so some people might understand you, but other people like not at, you know, the least that can happen is like, this is boring <laugh>. And that, that then you, you lose, um, you lose the purpose of whatever you do. Um, so, um, of course, I mean, um, the basics and the challenges and everything in sustainable tourism, and when you talk about transformational even further than that, um, well, you know, uh, one language I, we use when you speak with peers, of course, and when I write my research papers or, um, uh, you know, um, there, there is one kind of language and we don't have to explain a lot because we all know and use the same words and opinions and backgrounds and so on.
Ivana:
But, you know, using the same, um, aspect and the same insights. When I talk to my students, that's totally different. And when I was, um, writing my book, I dedicated my book to my students. It, it's, you know, if you wanna use it in science, sure, I'm happy, uh, that you do. But it's, it's more for, um, industry professionals and for future industry professionals. That's my students. And I use totally different language. I mean, I even asked my ex students like, what's the book like, because they read a few chapters and it's like, it's like being in your class. And I was happy because the language is totally different flow. You, you, you really need to be careful with the big words, um, with big concept and so on. So if you want people to support you, or at least to understand you, you've got to speak their own language.
Ivana:
So if in the industry we're, you know, addressing our potential, uh, or our current, um, um, travelers and tourists, well, we need to see, and that's where needs analysis is the the most important thing for me. You need to fill out their needs and what they want, and then try to fit what you're trying to kind of teach, uh, to them. It's not teach, but, um, to fit into what they need and kind of, uh, you know, enhance their, um, travel experience and being able to learn or even better see something with kind of a different eyes. Um, and that, that the sunrise moment and the sunset moment that we need to be careful about what, what you're, what, um, words we're using. Because I think the, the main, um, question there that we need to ask is, why, why are you doing this?
Ivana:
I mean, what is the purpose of your presentation to walk course a program? Um, and if, if the answer is, I, I would really like this group of people to understand more about the destination, understand more about the concept of, uh, sustainable, regenerative, transformational, then you need to know more about them to be careful and choose the words that they want to hear. They're ready to hear. Even not all tourists are the same, right? So we have people who are more open, like you, you said, like you saw the, you, you felt the awe of seeing the sunrise in the sunset. Other people, not yet, but they will. But you need to help them to be there to guide them. And that, that's what I think. And basically, our colleagues think that the main point of transformational travel, transformational education, is all about to help people, to guide them, to facilitate them, to get from where they are to where they wanna be.
Christine:
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. And I, I think one of the biggest challenges there is often that we, we don't know where we are and we don't know where we wanna be, right? <laugh>, I mean, I, I really, it starts as simple as that sometimes when you're guiding those discussions. I think that that can be really powerful. Um, it, it's one of the first things that I ask travelers when they're traveling with me is to just try to get a, a footing of where they're starting, because we don't spend a lot of time reflecting upon that. Um, and it gives you a good space to then understand where they are and what language is going to connect with them.
Ivana:
Exactly. And very often, I mean, I, um, I've never seen anything that's more transformational. And that's more similar is the travel and education. So, I mean, education is kind of trouble. It's not necessarily that you're, uh, displacing yourself as you would need to fit into trouble bucket, but, um, it's, it's the path that, that you're following to get somewhere. And very often that you don't know when you started that trial, you don't know where you're gonna get, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So like my students, I mean, they start the university probably with one idea, and they graduate with a totally different idea in their head. And only with the hindsight they could see how they transformed. But if you ask them in the year one, what do you want to become? Who do you want to become? What's the new you in four years, probably they will not be able to tell you, or what they say becomes funny when they, you know, kind of try to repeat or reread it four years later.
Ivana:
Uh, so yeah, I mean, transformational travel does have that component of being willing to get from one point to the other point within yourself, and then, uh, to the outer world. That's, that's true. But very often people don't know where they wanna get. They want to get to something new to the new “you,” right? But, um, not necessarily how, and I think our job, or even better set our role is to help them and guide them towards that goal. And even, I mean, I think we're going to get better at what we do in time, not, not you and me, but everybody right in this industry, to be able to see we or perceive something hidden in our clients or students, um, and try to imagine for them where realize everything else is kind of, again, serendipitous. On the other hand, you can't promise anything. That's the other thing. Um, there's no promise of becoming different because of the co-creation element, right? Because it's not me giving you the transformation. It's us creating transformation for you and for me. Cause change your…
Christine:
Yeah. Um, I think one of the things I was going back to what you said in the beginning is about teaching, is that you didn't, you know, you, you don't necessarily know what it is the right way, but you know, what is not the right way? That's maybe a similar conversation for people when they're, when they're thinking about what they would wish a travel experience might help them to achieve, is to like, they know what they don't want anymore. And sometimes that's a, a lot easier way to figure out what you do want. I know I do this often because the feeling I receive is much more clear for me when it's a no. So I can, I can like move through a situation and say, is this a thing I want? And if it's like, wasy, I'm like, well, I'm not sure. I'm like, is this the thing I don't want?
Christine:
Like, I know that feeling <laugh>. And so it's, um, I think it's just also really interesting to see how people make those decisions and where their clarity comes from and how to, to guide, like you said, this is becomes a process where you're le learning on both sides and moving it through. And it just requires a lot of, um, like curiosity and courage and trust and, and realizing, I think a lot of times we go to people for answers expecting that they have them, right? <laugh>, but we don't go to people expecting that you have to work together to find an answer. I think we've just been really conditioned that certain people have certain answers and there's not gray area. But I don't think that is a true way of perceiving the way things are <laugh>.
Ivana:
Yeah. I think that's amazing what you said, because, you know, when it comes to experiences, which we do in education and in travel, um, but we're a lot, I think, uh, wired to, uh, you know, buying products, not experience, we're just translating that feeling. So if you go to a supermarket, you kind of really do know the answer. Like, you know, where the stuff you wanna buy even sits. So you just go there and pick it up. Whereas with experienced it, you, as you said, you most often know what you do not want. But unless you've experienced it, you don't know what it is, what that you want to kinda repeat. So, um, you know, um, we really need to, um, as there and education professionals, we need to think about. And, uh, I think that the main thing there is, um, the care caring moment.
Ivana:
Because if you care about somebody, then you will probably be very much, um, curious enough to learn about that person and to, you know, think and give your best from that point to, to help them reach whatever that we decided we, we are gonna reach together. So, yeah. And that, that's it. But I think caring, I wouldn't go as far as as, um, bringing up the word love, but at least care for the, for the other person. And I know the, the remnants of the, um, you know, product and being, um, uh, focused on product, you know, pro production and buying, um, it's what we need to step away from as much as we can because the real, the travel and education is about relationships. And relationships are born where people care about each other, even if they d don't know about, um, each other very well yet. <laugh>.
Christine:
Yeah. Uh, that's so interesting cuz I was just speaking with someone about where, so, uh, Soul of Travel and where Lotus Sojourns, which is my adventure travel company came from. And I, I was telling her like, what I really wanted to create were these moments of connection. And what I wanted to replicate were these feelings that I had while I was traveling, and I wanted as many travelers to have that same feeling. And for me it was less about the travel and more about the connection, the feeling, the emotion, and the, like, personal awareness and growth. And so when I first started, I thought, should I even call this a travel company? Because that felt like an exchange and a transaction. And what I really wanted to do was invite people into community and conversation and growth. But there wasn't really a name for that.
Christine:
So yeah, I, I was trying to figure out how do I, because people do know how to buy a product, like you said mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so this is where that language of transformational travel becomes really important because we are trying as people who are operators or guides or coaches, we are selling something, but in such a different way. Because I think for most of us, while like the current system tells us we have to sell something to someone for this transaction to happen, what we really wanna do is invite people into this experience. And so we're really muddled up in the between of two paradigms, I think is what happens. I don't know the, what are your thoughts about some of that way of thinking and con like, trying to communicate this with clients and students and travelers?
Ivana:
Yes. Well, uh, it's, it's, it's an amazing moment that we live in and, and, you know, to, to be, uh, in educational and travel industry. Um, because, you know, I never, like 10 years ago, I never thought that sustainable tourism would be something that we can even call mainstream now, right? So, um, what I want to say is that things are moving so fast and it's, um, you know, amazing to see and to participate in that, to, to create a bit of that, to have a role in that. Um, and, um, so what I want to say is that in using that language to help somebody, um, have a transformative experience while traveling or education, um, is not necessary that we use the word sustainable or regenerative <laugh>, they, they don't want to hear the word because there's a lot of green washing and so on and so far.
Ivana:
But, um, and especially when we talk about, uh, transformational travel, I mean, it's getting pace, the word and the concept within the industry within the science, and that's what we do in, in, uh, transformational travel council with our research and so on, that still we're, we're talking about, but it's not, I mean, I don't see using the word transformational travel when we talk to our clients and our travelers, um, makes any difference to them. So you use any, any words that are close to them, close to what, what they want to achieve or the gap they want to jump over in their life, or, you know, uh, whatever, uh, resonates with them and everybody is, is special in that way. So our, our task or our roles to find out, that's it. So, um, no, um, it's very difficult though, to restrain from using the words that we use on a daily level when we talk to our peers, um, and, um, colleagues, partners from the industry, from education.
Ivana:
But we need to do that if we want to get where we want to get that. That's it. It's not easy, you know? Um, and I see a special, um, role in that in, in, uh, travel journalism and media in general, and how they talk to, um, uh, their readers who are, you know, future or, um, future, uh, potential, um, uh, travelers to a certain destination. So, you know, it's a tricky business. Um, we still don't have, you know, this is the way to do it, but there are, again, there are don'ts. So we agree on many of the don'ts, but what are the dos? Well, we, we need to work on that. And what I have been, um, you know, have, have to, uh, um, accept it, is that many things for us who, who are involved in, in these, um, different paradigms on a daily level to us, those, those aspects and paradigms are clear, right?
Ivana:
And so we're like, I don't even know how many times that I, that I think think, but not pronounced, how, how don't you see? How don't you understand, right? Um, but then I then I ask myself, did you provide, you know, enough space and opportunities for the person to be able to see what you see? Um, and I think that's, that's really, um, really important. And then even in the travel, travel media, um, and, and journalism, we need to be <laugh>, uh, you know, careful about it. I don't know why, uh, how yet, but what we're getting there, I'm sure. And then what, what I wanted to say is things are changing, but we need to be patient. So will we get what we want to get even within our lifetimes? I don't know. But I don't want to put the pressure of that timeline to ourselves, the most important thing that we're doing our part <laugh>
Christine:
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. Uh, that's such a, such a powerful point because I think especially when you're so passionate about something, man, you wanna see the end. But with a lot of the things that we're tackling right now, it, we know that it, it can't be possible, but it, it's still, I think, a part of the human nature to want to, to be a part of that finality of a solution to something. Um, so that I think is an interesting space to be in. Um, you mentioned, uh, both your research at TTC and, uh, also working with media and supporting, you know, the, the conversations that are happening in that realm. I would love to kind of go to that part of your expertise here, and if you could share a little bit about the research that you are doing with T T C and, and how that's supporting conversations there.
Ivana:
Right. Uh, well, that's, that's like one of my, um, latest passions, <laugh> and, um, you know, um, I invest a lot of my time in energy there, but it's not like missing weekends, but, uh, spending them, I think, um, uh, wisely and nicely and in one way as well. So, um, what we're, uh, working on, uh, at the TTC research wise currently is producing a white paper on transformational travel. So, uh, this, this, uh, white paper should talk, and we'll talk probably in, hopefully, to different audiences, so it's not, um, um, intended only for tourists or the industry. So we're going to try and explain people, uh, that transformational travel, number one, it exists and it's still there, and then it's going to develop even more. There are more and more people who be, you know, um, ask for that kinds of, um, experiences. And then on the other hand, there are a lot of people in the industry who see the need for that and see the role, how they can contribute.
Ivana:
So, um, but they, um, a lot of people can that kind lack support, um, because it does not exist for, for the reason that the transformational travel as a concept is not widely, um, accepted, right? Uh, but we're, we're at the perfect moment now to be working on that, uh, because it's gained, uh, uh, an immense momentum, um, in, uh, academia and research papers. And like even three or four or five years ago, there's really just a few papers that you could find and read about that. Now there's like, we have our own internal library of over a hundred papers in that topic, and there are more, of course, so we haven't got to all of them. Um, and, uh, of course, what people in the industry needs. And that's really, um, something that I'm passionate to, to very kind is to translate the academic language and the, the, you know, so much important and usable, um, results of our research, uh, to the people who actually deliver that in the industry.
Ivana:
Uh, so I mean, I can't imagine, uh, you know, um, um, anybody working in tourism industry and creating experiences that, um, they go and read scientific paper and they say, aha, I can apply this in my business. Um, I mean, I don't see it happening. And, uh, it would be kind of odd to see that. I mean, if I own the business, I wouldn't be doing that. I'm just reading the papers because that's what I do. Um, there, there is, I think, a missing, uh, link or a bridge between what we have, uh, as a civilization we have already found out. So it's scientifically proven, but we want the industry as the first people on the line. I mean, like the ambassadors or, uh, the real doers of transformational travel to be, um, you know, supported and equipped to improve what they're doing. So, uh, the travelers can actually get what they want, or they don't even know, know yet what they want to get.
Ivana:
And I think, you know, just, just providing this as a platform, uh, should, and we at least see it as, as, um, a breaking point, uh, for the future, because it could serve as something that could propel a lot of the things that are going on, um, and just multiply them and, and create that snowball effect. That's, that's, um, you know, so the, the first thing we're working on, we have been working on, there is big team of people from TTC and out of the TTC working on that. And we have, uh, um, deadline, but, uh, let's not, um, you know, um, I, I'll just say this year, 2023, it's much earlier than end of the year, but we'll, we'll come out and publish it, um, at some point and during this year. So, yeah. And then the other thing that you asked me about is, um, about the Media Heralds, which is one of the programs within the Transformational Travel Council, which is basically intended for travel journalists, uh, but the ones, uh, who actually are on the same frequency as all, all of us, um, different people gathered around the, the council.
Ivana:
Um, and we, um, this pro program has existed for quite a while, um, even before I came to the TTC, um, a couple years ago, three years ago, I can't remember. That's how I got in. Um, and their colleagues, colleagues who were, um, leading it even before I came there. And I was very fortunate, um, as, as I've been fortunate enough to, um, you know, get the role of the head of research in in January this year. Um, and, um, uh, I was asked by, by colleagues, um, Alex Grava and, and, and Tim Banger, who, who leads, um, this new Herald ship program to help them, uh, there. And we just had our first salon, um, which is a meetup or, um, online event that we have for our travel journalists. Uh, and we do talk about a lot of different aspects, but that, that, you know, touch on the tr uh, transformational travel.
Ivana:
But from their point of view, I say theirs because my role is a little bit different. Uh, I'm not a travel journalist, um, not even an aspiring one, <laugh>, but, uh, I am a travel writer. Uh, so, um, you know, the, the audience and the language that we use, and being mindful of what kind of audience and language you use, what, what you and I just talked about is the main point. And, um, so we, we talked about diversity in, in tourism and how that incorporates in our first salon. Uh, it was the 31st of January, and then we'll have three more this year with really interesting topics. And I think we're, again, trying to produce something, something that we can leave to other people to work on later or, or disprove us, um, because things, things change so fast, so we didn't know maybe what we come up. Um, and all the ideas that we have this year might not be valid next year, but it doesn't matter because it's a step, step forward. So yeah,
Christine:
<laugh>. Yeah. That's so amazing. And I think, you know, the, the resource or the, the idea of taking research and using it, being able to use it in your business in a real actionable way is really important. I know for me, because I do have an academic background as well, like, I always feel like I want that, I want that thing that I can hang my hat on and say like, this says this, so I know. Yeah. You know, there's something, a foundation there that has been proven, but also then taking that and the way that you can convey that outward is such a, it's, you know, it, it's such an interesting process to try to figure out how to do that. And like you said, most people, one, aren't even trying, and two, if they are trying, they're probably like me, and they're not succeeding in it.
Christine:
So it, I think it will be really valuable to have something like that shows us a little more clearly how to be able to, to one, have a strong foundation in it, but two, then how to portray that. And I also think when it comes to the responsibility of travel writers, I think that's such a huge topic. I've talked to a few different guests about that on this program, and mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, they have the hugest reach and they're influencing travelers. And the way they share stories is how people begin to understand the truth of things. And so it, it really is huge. And I, I think many travel writers maybe when they set out they're setting, setting out with this romantic notion of what it might be and what it might offer them, which I think is really important, that's a, also a part of it. But you, as you grow into that space, you realize that you are shaping people's perceptions of destinations and of people and of place and of purpose. And so it really is probably a much greater responsibility than most people understand. So I think it's, it's so important to have a space like that. And I love that, that TTC is kind of stepping into that and, and restarting that program with a really strong focus on that.
Ivana:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I love the word that you use to describe all of this. I mean, it, it is the, the essence of, of transformational travel. But, um, you know, transformational travel, it's not first thing, it's not a type of travel. It's not a kind of travel. Um, it's, it's an approach to how we organize and let, let us say consume travel. I mean, just the way to, to, to oppose that word actually, to how we, uh, interact, um, and who we are and how, what good do we bring to the destinations to, you know, destination. The the first thing that I, you know, when I enter my classroom, any, any course that I teach, it's like destination. What is it? It's somebody's home. It's maybe a community's home. It may be a squirrel community home, but it doesn't matter if they're home. So what I try to give my students the, uh, the, the first thing to do is take off their shoes and take somebody else's shoes, <laugh>.
Ivana:
And now you are a squirrel, or you're a home, um, um, um, um, a community. And then, you know, imagine now you're at your home doing what you like, whatever, and then somebody comes in and opens the door and moves you from your bed and eats from your plates. And then, you know, uh, at the end when you move out, they say, why do they move out? I came here for the experience. So <laugh>, I mean, if, if you just kind of see from different perspective, that's how we, we can become, um, better tourists, better travelers, uh, just, just that one notion, at least for me and for my students, is great so far. Just imagine it's your home and what you would, you know, how you would host people in your home, or what kind of behavior you would, um, you know, welcome or allow or prohibit.
Ivana:
So that's the same thing. Absolutely. And you don't, as we have seen during the pandemic, we don't have to travel so far to, to, to be transformed or to experience something that changes our life. And when we say transformation, that's really important. For some people, it's going to be huge transformation, huge change, of course. But for most people, it's going to be a really tiny change, but they build on and on and on. And the way you change, you change people around yourself. I mean, the, the first in, in your profession, and especially in tourism, every, every each, and, and education, every each one of us, the better we become, the better we serve the world. And I think I, I kind of, kind of really love to look at it as a snowball, in fact. So that's, yeah, that's, that's what we're trying to do.
Ivana:
And the TTC is doing that on different fronts. So the industry, the academia through and research and then, uh, the media and so on. So I think, you know, we're on the verge of something big and, um, it's not, I would like to share something that we do with the, with T T C, um, currently is not, we're not thinking only about transformational travel because, you know, travel is like life, but just not where you live <laugh>, but somewhere else. But it's life. So it's you living with other people around you and so on. And, um, but, uh, you know, in, in travel we get to, um, mix up into the, into life different aspects of, let's, let me say this word, economy, right? But how about we have a transformational economy, then you would have all the partners in creating what you are creating for your travelers who are on this exactly same page.
Ivana:
And, uh, we're currently, um, involved in a big co-creation of the research with Stoneman. And, um, people can see that, uh, more and read about that on, on the TT TTC website. And that's what we're talking about, and we're co-creating research, and then our, um, uh, allies and everybody else basically who are interested in reading the white paper once it's published, will be able to see the research about transformational travel that nobody's ever seen before. So I think we're, we're, you know, we're aiming to pro produce the best thing there is, um, uh, at this moment for everybody who is involved or would like to be involved or who doesn't know yet about this, to be able, you know, to, to see if there fits and find their role in it. Yeah. So it's, it's, you know, it's amazing. So we're going, we're preparing to start the third round of this research tomorrow, so we're spending three days together, co-creating the research and so on. So, yeah. Excellent. It's amazing, <laugh>. Yeah. It's,
Christine:
I feel like it's such an exciting time and you know, as we mentioned at the beginning of the conversation, we were able to finally, after so many years, gather together again in Slovenia and the energy Yeah. Of everybody being able to be together. And the way things have even changed from the first gathering, which I missed just by a couple of days learning about it. So I wasn't there. But to this one, I've been on the virtual community and just to see how much has grown and changed and the, the power and the passion behind this space has been amazing. Um, but I also, I really loved what you said about, um, transformational travel. Not being a style of travel, but being a way of being as we travel. I, I think this has been something I have always thought about because I grew up in a town that was a tourism destination.
Christine:
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So I, I witnessed this every summer as we went from one way of living to another way of living that was to accommodate all these people coming to our town. And, you know, watching how they interacted, watching how that impacted me and my friends and my family. Like I've, I've kind of always been observing this phenomenon. And, and then where I grew up in Montana, I also lived and worked a few summers near major national parks. So again, I was mm-hmm. <affirmative>, just constantly observing what that created in the community dynamic. And I just thought in many times it was such a, an unequal exchange mm-hmm. <affirmative> and so mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that's really where I started with thinking, how, how do we make tourism an equal exchange? How do we make it have a positive impact? And that's where I fell into sustainable travel, regenerative travel, and eventually to transformational travel, because I think that goes to how we show up as a traveler, and that really creates a huge impact in the world.
Christine:
And so I really love the way that you shared that, because I think a lot of people get hung up on the word, like you said, of transformation and knowing, like it has to be this huge experience with this grandiose outcome. And, and that's kind of where they stop in this conversation loop. And we really want to move people out of that space into thinking what transformations can be created through travel, I think not just for yourself, I think they always happen, are are always open to happening for ourselves, but, but this greater space is what we're really thinking and talking about right now.
Ivana:
Exactly. Exactly. That's the point. I mean, it's not only about tourism, but think tourism as a tool or a pathway to having a better world. I mean, it sound like you know too much and like, where are you people getting at and what are you thinking that it's, you know, if you think in the baby steps, that's, that's what you will see. I mean, you know, when I started, uh, with my, uh, master thesis is unsustainable tourist, I mean, um, uh, 2008 or nine <laugh> can't even remember. Um, and it was like, uh, you guys, and in my country, there were just few people, few people that I could actually talk to about it. And, you know, fast forward 10 or 13, 15 years later, <laugh> we're, we're, you know, far beyond that. Everybody has at least heard about it, even if they're not happy about it.
Ivana:
You know, I used to get angry with people who would not do well in tourism, and then obviously the world beyond, um, circumstantially. Right? But then today, as long as you do good, I believe I support you. <laugh>. I don't know, I don't care about your reason as far as what you're doing is, you know, good. And when I say good, it's not negotiable. I mean, good means good. Uh, it's not good for you, good for me. I mean, good is something that is universal, it's a value, and it's not negotiable, and it doesn't have gray areas. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I mean, we can put gray areas into it, but it's, you know, it's just a value and value is something that you cannot dispute. It is what it is. Um, so, um, yeah. Um, I think that people, um, and I wanna say people, I don't just think travelers, but everybody else was involved in, in travel, we're getting there step by step because things are changing.
Ivana:
I mean, voluntarily or not. And when will we see big, um, you know, changes? I don't know. But if you ask me, can we see the changes, of course, just take a look 10 years before and wow, like, I hit the target. I mean, I'm happy that I had the mentor who chose this, this topic for me, or how it happened. So yeah, baby steps be persistent, be very patient, and be prepared to listen. And that's what I may, I don't do that hundred percent every day, but I, I strive to do that. And I think people are getting there. There are more and more people that way. And not only in tourism reason, but whatever you do and tourism is perfect for that kind of growth.
Christine:
Yeah, it is, it is really perfect. Um, well, I really appreciate everything that you have shared so far in this conversation. Um, I had one thing left that wanna touch upon, and it's probably mm-hmm. <affirmative> something that will take much longer than the time that I'm gonna ask for you to talk about again. But when we were talking, we were talking about, um, what are the barriers for some people to be in the same place as me? And I think this is something we talk a lot or we don't talk enough about in travel. Um, I'm taking the Rise Tourisms flagship program right now, and one of the first things we do is kind of identify who we are on the wheel of power and what that allows for us. And you and I had talked a little bit about, um, you know, passport privilege and visas and language, and even in the context of research that most research is done in the English language, and so mm-hmm. <affirmative>, what barriers does that create? So I would love for you to just share a little bit, because I think this is something, every time I hear it, I just think, why aren't we addressing this more than we are <laugh>?
Ivana:
Yeah. Um, thank you for this question. I mean, um, it's, it's, uh, come up in my experience and, um, you know, um, we often talk about, um, less privileged people, um, like I'm trying to be, you know, correct about this, but people who do not look like me or you, and it's not always true. For example, I've worked with people from Europe and the United States all my life, just give an exa an example. And if I wanted to meet you in the states in let's say a month or two, I can't do it. I need a visa. And so there's, what I want to portray with this is that there are so many nuances to how different we are and what obstacles that creates. And I don't think that we are as people different to each other, right? But we are different in the circumstances and the systems that we, we live in.
Ivana:
So, um, the language, the, the way we pronounce each other's name, right? Uh, it depends on what culture we come from. Even we are trying to be, you know, mindful it sometimes doesn't hurt, but just being mindful for me, it works. It, it's enough, even if it does that get wrong in the end, but it doesn't matter. The, the, the purpose of it is, is, is the most important. And, um, I think, um, when we talk about people who travel, we kind of on meet those nuances. Um, not purposefully, of course, but we need to be more mindful, uh, of that. I'm not speaking for myself. I mean, I could speak that for all people living here in the s where I, where I come from, where, where I live currently. Um, and there are other parts of the world with the, their own nuances and their own obstacles.
Ivana:
Because the main language in tourism, in science, in education, it is English of course, which means that, for example, my students, when they do their own research and what they ask them to do, they actually, you know, if they don't speak English or they're not, do not feel comfortable with English that enough, they're, they're, you know, kind of secluded from everything there is to here and see. So, you know, it's, there is no solution to that, not yet because we don't have a universal language. Um, it's not, it's not that we maybe should, I mean, I love languages and differences that come with, with them, but, um, we just need to be very mindful and be thinking every time that what does their origin in every aspect, uh, can create to prevent them from travel or from transformations or from the good that travel can bring to them and the community at March.
Christine:
Yeah. Thank you so much. Uh, like I said, I know that was kind of an impossible task to wrap that up in a quick summary, but I just feel like it's so important. And the more times that we can at least bring this into this space of conversation, the more people that I hope will have that, that awareness and help to propel this conversation forward so that we can be thinking about what this means in the context of travel and of education. And, um, I, I really just appreciate that we were able to talk a about that a little before today and as well right now. So thank you. Um, well, as we end our conversation, I have just a few rapid fire questions so our Okay. People can get to know you a little bit more as a traveler and see if any other things, uh, come to the surface. So the first is, what are you reading right now?
Ivana:
Hmm, <laugh>, I just finished one thing and I, um, but I would like, I would like to say one thing that I keep, um, uh, getting back to, it's Heidi, by Johanna Spyri, Heidi. So I don't know how many times I've read it. And I have several books here on my bookshelf, uh, as birthday presents because, you know, um, people know that I love, my friends know that I love what Heidi is all about, the connection of human and the nature and connection between the people, and I've always loved it. So yeah, I read it almost, you know, weekly go back to, to a couple of pages.
Christine:
Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Um, what is always in your suitcase or backpack when you travel?
Ivana:
Always? Well, um, <laugh> my camera. I used to, I struggle to say that, um, I used to do a lot of photography, <laugh>, um, but, you know, my favorite camera broke down and it can't be fixed. And I'm kind of, uh, I'm looking at it. I, I didn't toss it away because it cannot be fixed. And I, um, you know, I, I feel very emotional about it because of all the memories and experiences that I get that I did get, um, you know, uh, from it. And the world looks more focused, uh, through, uh, looking through the lens. Um, and I'm, I'm sorry that I missed that now. Um, I haven't switched yet and <laugh> to another camera, but I will <laugh> in time. Yeah. But I, I like that focus on the world and the little things that you get when you look through the lens.
Christine:
Hmm. We should have spent a moment with that in our conversation too, but thank you for sharing that. Um, to Sojourn is to travel somewhere for a short while as if you live there. Um, much back to what we were just talking about, but where is a place that you would love to sojourn?
Ivana:
Even my students, no answer to that. <laugh>, it's, um, New Zealand <laugh>. Um, so I would, you know, I haven't been there. I wanna go there for many different reasons, professional and personal. So, yeah. Many places, but yeah. Just one
Christine:
<laugh>. Yeah, yeah. No, I know. I should take away the words one and always and <laugh> things like that because they're triggering. Um, what is something you eat that immediately connects you to a place you've been?
Ivana:
Eat?
Christine:
Yeah.
Ivana:
Tea, <laugh>. Yeah. Tea. Um, you know, I, I, um, I feel different, um, destinations by the tea that I consumed where I, when I was there. And I always, and that's literally always something that I bring back. Even, even if there is no specific tea for the area, I would bring something back and then it's <laugh>. It's a great way for reflection. I drink tea daily and, you know, some, I would sometimes say it's not this or that type of tea, but I say this is like this country, in that country, and this town and that town. And then I'm, I'm back there again when I drink that <laugh>.
Christine:
Yeah. Uh, who was a person that inspired or encouraged you to set out and explore the world?
Ivana:
Yeah. Well, um, I, I have to go back to my childhood, and that was Jane Goodall. <laugh>. Um, and you know, I, I grew up, uh, watching what she was doing and, uh, the legacy that she has been creating, and it's still amazing. And, you know, I don't see myself getting there, but, um, just following in her passion and not her footsteps, I think it would be enough for what I'm doing.
Christine:
<laugh>. Wow. Thank you. Um, if you could take an adventure with one person, fictional or real, alive or past, who would it be? <laugh>.
Ivana:
One person, always my brother.
Christine:
That's amazing.
Ivana:
It's always my brother. My brother's 10 months younger than I am, so we're kind of twins. Um, and we've grew, grown up. We grew up together and the things that the two of us were always, you know, getting into <laugh>, um, forbidden or allowed by our parents, or even later, I mean, just a couple of years ago we got lost trying to find a lost mine for looking for some stones. That's what he does. So, you know, we're we're old and we got lost. And in his words, we didn't get lost. We just misplaced our car.
Christine:
<laugh>. Yes. Oh, that's very good. Um, well, Soul of Travel is a space where I'd love to be able to, uh, honor the voices of women in the industry, who is one woman in the industry you admire and would love to recognize in this conversation.
Ivana:
Can I go back to Jane Goodall?
Christine:
You can <laugh>.
Ivana:
Yeah, that's it. Because, um, there, there are a few reasons for that, but, um, I, I think that there are so many amazing women in our industry that it would be unfair to say only one. Um, there are so many of them who, who, um, influenced what I do and how I see things. So yeah. I will stick with Jane.
Christine:
Yeah. Thank you. Well, thank you so much for your time today. This was such a great conversation and I really appreciate you sharing your wisdom and your passion with us today.
Ivana:
Thank you so much.
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