Episode 134 - Rose O’Connor, Sustainable Wanderlust
For travel advisors interested in learning how to create a greater positive impact through travel, find the lens that gives you the most passion and the most hope.
This week’s Soul of Travel Podcast guest is Rose O'Connor, founder and CEO of Sustainable Wanderlust and award-winning sustainable travel consultant and educator. Rose believes that when done right, tourism is a powerful force for good.
Sustainable Wanderlust helps travel businesses assess, develop, market, and promote sustainable practices to travel professionals and recreational travelers. They provide a comprehensive evaluation system for sustainable business practices as well as facilitation and stewardship around the process of implementing sustainable practices in the luxury travel market. By asking questions of where the business is and its relationship to waste, water, and emissions, Sustainable Wanderlust helps businesses find ways to drive positive impact in the community and the world at large.
Rose has consulted with several top travel brands on various sustainability projects, including serving on the Virtuoso Sustainability Council, where she collaborates with other travel leaders on initiatives to move the industry toward a more responsible and sustainable future.
Rose is a trusted source on the subject of sustainable travel for several media outlets, including Condé Nast Traveler, The New York Times, Virtuoso Life, and Barron’s, and has been named Condé Nast Traveler’s Top Specialist in Sustainable Travel since 2020. She was selected by the Environmental Defense Fund as a 2021 Climate Corps Fellow and received the 2021 Virtuoso Luminaries, Legends, and Leaders Environmental Award, and was recently named one of 2023’s Most Influential Women in Travel by Travel Pulse.
Thinking of Ourselves in Context of the Bigger World
As Rose fell in love with travel at an early age, she treasured being invited into people’s homes and experiencing what they experience in everyday life. This history, combined with her stepfather’s experience as an Alaska expert, encouraged Rose to enter the industry as a luxury travel advisor about seven years ago. Rose felt a compelling need to try and drive positive impact in travel as soon as she became more aware of the impact travel has on individuals and the world.
In the context of travel advisors and what they offer, Rose and Christine both reveal they understand the role to be more expansive, impactful, and complex than we normally think.
Rose has spent a lot of time attempting to pinpoint why travel experiences are so transformative; the simple answer is that travel truly opens our eyes and allows us to see things differently. Rose explains that travel also allows her to commune with the earth and with nature that our fast-paced lives don’t always leave space for.
“When we talk about sustainability at the heart of it, there has to be a massive paradigm shift in the way that we think about the earth. And I think about, you know, people tend to be most open and most receptive in my experience when they’re traveling. And that’s why I think, yes, the power of travel is enormous, but the power of the travel advisor is enormous. You have the ability to facilitate life-changing experiences for people that could change the course of the earth. ”
In her role as a travel advisor, and in those advisors she trains, Rose consistently looks for ways to drive impact on an individual and global level. She sees an enormous opportunity to facilitate dramatic interpersonal change through travel, which challenges us to think about ourselves in the context of a bigger and more connected world.
The Foundation of Sustainable Wanderlust’s Travel Professional Course
Especially lately, Rose has made a concerted decision to travel less — and to travel with more purpose when she does travel. When she does take a trip, she tries to understand two key questions:
#1: What is my impact while I’m there?
#2: What is the potential for positive impact when I leave?
As Rose continues to develop programming and training for travel advisors, she sees education as the foundation for the work; conversations with the client are the very tip of the pyramid, as there is so much to unpack that needs to happen before that conversation even occurs.
In Rose’s course, travel professionals identify the Sustainable Development Goal or SDGs that best align with the impact they want to create in the world as an anchor to carry them throughout the course.
Professionals move through the course in a supportive, collaborative way, discovering a roadmap that makes the most sense in making the sustainable option the “default” option – for clients, for tour operators, and suppliers and hospitality partners. If the default already makes a positive impact, this opens the doors to even greater impacts, including community tourism, regenerative practices, off-the-beaten-path opportunities, and more.
Rose finds that once we determine our passion and hope that most resonate with us, this outlook becomes a portal to the interconnected nature of all of how we can positively impact the world and all that live in it.
To learn more about the ten-week sustainability training for travel advisors offered by Sustainable Wanderlust, visit this recent article on Travel Pulse!
Soul of Travel Episode 134 At a Glance
Christine and Rose discuss:
The role that travel advisors play in educating travelers
Shifting the market demand toward sustainable travel
Rose’s 10-week sustainable travel course that was created for travel advisors
Sustainability assessments and business strategy and marketing
Defining sustainable and regenerative travel practices
The transformational power of travel
Join Christine now for this soulful conversation with Rose O’Connor.
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Related UN Sustainable Development Goals
Sustainable Development Goal #10: Reduce inequality within and among countries.
Sustainable Development Goal #12: Ensure sustainable consumption and production patterns.
Sustainable Development Goal #13: Take urgent action to combat climate change and its impacts.
Sustainable Development Goal #14: Conserve and sustainably use the oceans, seas and marine resources for sustainable development.
Sustainable Development Goal #15: Protect, restore and promote sustainable use of terrestrial ecosystems, sustainably manage forests, combat desertification, and halt and reverse land degradation and halt biodiversity loss.
Sustainable Development Goal #16: Promote peaceful and inclusive societies for sustainable development, provide access to justice for all and build effective, accountable and inclusive institutions at all levels.
Sustainable Development Goal #17: Strengthen the means of implementation and revitalize the Global Partnership for Sustainable Development.
Resources & Links Mentioned in the Episode
Discover more about Sustainable Wanderlust.
Learn more about Sustainable Wanderlust’s ten-week course on sustainability here.
Find your copy of Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer at your local bookstore or on the author’s website.
Follow Rose and Sustainable Wanderlust on your favorite social media network!
Connect with Rose on LinkedIn.
Follow Sustainable Wanderlust on Instagram and LinkedIn!
About the Soul Of Travel Podcast
Soul of Travel honors the passion and dedication of people making a positive impact in the tourism industry. In each episode, you’ll hear the stories of women who are industry professionals, seasoned travelers, and community leaders. Our expert guests represent social impact organizations, adventure-based community organizations, travel photography and videography, and entrepreneurs who know that travel is an opportunity for personal awareness and a vehicle for global change.
Join us to become a more educated and intentional traveler as you learn about new destinations, sustainable and regenerative travel, and community-based tourism. Industry professionals and those curious about a career in travel will also find value and purpose in our conversations.
We are thought leaders, action-takers, and heart-centered change-makers who inspire and create community. Join host Christine Winebrenner Irick for these soulful conversations with our global community of travelers exploring the heart, the mind, and the globe.
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Credits. Christine Winebrenner Irick (Host, creator, editor). Carla Campos (Guest). Original music by Clark Adams. Editing, production, and content writing by Carly Oduardo.
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WE WON A BESSIE AWARD! The Bessie Awards recognize the achievements of women and gender-diverse people making an impact in the travel industry. To view the complete list of 2022’s winners, visit bessieawards.org.
Soul of Travel Episode 134 Transcript
Women’s travel, transformational travel, sustainable travel, women leaders in travel, social entrepreneurship
Christine:
Join me, Christine Winebrenner Irick, for soulful conversations with my community of travelers, exploring the heart, the mind, and the globe. We might all agree that we are missing travel right now. These conversations highlight what tourism really means for the world. Soul of Travel honors the passion and dedication of the people making a positive impact in tourism. In each episode, you'll hear the story of industry professionals and seasoned travelers who know travel is more than a vacation. It is an opportunity for personal awareness, and it is a vehicle for change. We are thought leaders, action takers, and heart-centered change makers. This is the soul of Travel.
Christine:
Rose O'Connor is an award-winning sustainable travel consultant and educator and founder and c e o of sustainable wanderlust. She believes that when done right, tourism is a powerful force for good. She has consulted with several top travel brands on a variety of sustainability projects. Rose serves on the Virtuoso Sustainability Council, where she collaborates with other travel leaders on initiatives to move the industry towards a more responsible and sustainable future. Named Conde Nast Travelers top specialist in sustainable travel since 2020. Rose as a trusted source on the subject for a range of media outlets, including Conde Nast Traveler, the New York Times, virtuoso Life, and Barron's. She was selected by the Environmental Defense Fund as a 2021 Climate Core fellow and was the recipient of the 2021 Virtuoso Luminaries, legends and Leaders Environmental Award, and recently recognized as one of 2023’s most influential women in Travel by Travel Pulse.
Christine:
In our conversation, we talk about the role that travel advisors play in educating travelers and shifting market demand towards sustainable travel. We also discuss the 10 week sustainable travel course she created for travel advisors and dive into some of the information found in the modules. She also shares about the sustainability assessments and business strategy and marketing she does at Sustainable Wanderlust. Love these soulful conversations. We rely on listener support to produce our podcast. You can support me in amplifying the voices of women by making a donation at PayPal. The link is in the show notes. Join me now for my soulful conversation with Rose O'Connor.
Christine:
Welcome to Soul of Travel podcast. I am really excited today to be joined by Rose O'Connor. Um, she is an award-winning sustainable travel consultant, uh, who has also created a sustainability training for travel advisors, which I'm so excited to bring this perspective to the podcast and really share with my audience the power that advisors have to influence, demand, and create shifts, shifts towards sustainability. Um, when we first met, we had a great conversation where we geeked out about this at levels that some people perhaps might not, but it was really fun. Um, and so I've been really waiting for this conversation. And also just recently, uh, rose was included in the list of 2020 threes most influential women in travel by travel Pulse. So I wanted to recognize you for that. I was so excited to see your name included on the list for the work that you're doing, because I think it's truly important. So, uh, rose, welcome.
Rose:
Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to be here and to continue our conversation.
Christine:
Yeah, thank you. Well, before we get started, we kind of just had a fun moment of being real people before we started. And I was sharing that I have little bit of a migraine and was feeling a little disoriented, and I shared that I have this little goddess statue on my desk that represents clarity. And I had ironically also picked up an essential oil that's called clarity. So I'm being surrounded by that. But just sharing that because I think, uh, sometimes, uh, as women in business owners and all of the hats that we're wearing, we forget about the self and the human aspect of it. And I just wanted to acknowledge, you know, the, the existence of that in the context of this conversation. So it was kind of nice to start with some real realness, <laugh>.
Rose:
Absolutely. Yeah, a hundred percent.
Christine:
So, um, Rose, before we get into our conversation further, I'd just like to invite you to introduce yourself, tell a little bit more about who you are and the work that you're doing.
Rose:
Sure. So I'm Rose O'Connor. I'm the founder and c e o of a company called Sustainable Wanderlust, um, which is a sustainable travel consulting firm. We work with a variety of clients from travel agencies to individual advisors to hotels and onsite companies, um, helping them develop and initiate sustainability strategies. Um, we've also, um, recently developed a intensive 10 module advisor training course in sustainability, which is my personal passion project. It's been a long time sort of coming. The development has been over the span of several years and we finally got it launched. So we're midway through our, our pilot right now, and, um, it's going really well. It's the highlight of my week. I absolutely love working with other travel advisors, and I had sort of this vision of being able to maybe provide the scaffolding for advisors to really understand sustainability and then watch and see what they are able to do with it, you know, using their own creativity and their own innovative talents.
Rose:
And that is starting to happen and it's so inspiring. And I'm also seeing them field, you know, press inquiries and responding so beautifully with just, you know, things from, you know, how do you vet sustainable suppliers? And their responses are so thoughtful and so knowledgeable, and it's just making me so excited and hopeful for our industry. Um, I should also say I'm finishing my master's degree in sustainability. I will be graduating in a month. So <laugh>, that has been kind of the core. Um, and I know that's another thing we share is having sort of an educational background, but that's really been the core of, um, a lot of sort of my, my learnings and really informs the work I do with companies and advisors.
Christine:
Yeah, thank you and congratulations. That's a huge undertaking, um, as I also know. So it's really exciting to be able to have that knowledge and then also to have it done so that it opens up space for all of the other things that you're working on. So I can't wait for, for seeing what comes in the future, um, to kind of get to understand a little bit more about your path. How did you fall into the tourism industry or really where did you first kind of fall in love with travel and then know that this is the place where you wanted to work to create a positive impact in the world?
Rose:
Yeah, so I feel like, um, I really learned about the beauty of travel, uh, from my mom. She did not work in the tourism business, but she has just been a lifelong traveler and a real pretty intrepid traveler. Um, she, you know, hitchhiked her way through Europe in the 1960s and took a green tortoise bus across the Middle East and lived in Indonesia for several years in the seventies. And, um, you know, traveled through Sri Lanka, which was Salan at the time on a sidecar on a motorcycle. So she was just an extremely, or is an extremely adventurous woman. And, um, she had a special love for Indonesia, um, having lived there. And she took me there, um, gosh, let's see, it was almost 30 years ago the first time I went to Bali and getting to kind of see it, she had not been back since the 19.
Rose:
Um, and so at this, let's see, this was 1994, I think. So it had changed so much, but of course, looking back, nothing like it is today, you know, and I was just so touched we had, it was not, you know, I, I entered the travel industry, which I'll get to in a minute, really selling and focusing on luxury travel. Our, our trip was not a, a luxury trip. It was a deeply authentic, culturally authentic trip and meeting people that she lived with 20 years ago. And, um, I just fell in love with the cultural exchange. Like I fell in love with getting, you know, being in invited into people's homes and drinking coffee and understanding. And I was, you know, young, I was 13 at the time, but it had a massive impact on me and I just loved it. And my mom ended up falling sort of refalling in love with Bali and starting a business with importing textiles and handicrafts and, um, have having bologne partners.
Rose:
And so we would go back several times and, you know, it's changed a lot since then. Um, but that was really the inspiration. And then my stepdad has been in the travel industry for years and years and years as an Alaska expert, a national parks expert. So I was sort of aware of, um, you know, the possibility for careers through him. And I entered the business as a luxury travel advisor about seven years ago. So I haven't been in the industry that that long. I had been working in the financial sector for a while and felt undernourished. Um, you know, I just, I worked with really wonderful people and good, good companies, but I just was not, um, I could not fathom kind of doing that the rest of my life and started selling luxury travel and, um, fell in love with many aspects of the industry, but again, felt this real, um, compelling need to, to, to try to drive positive impact. And that sort of led me on the path, um, to where I am today.
Christine:
Yeah. Uh, thank you for sharing your experiences. I love hearing your mom's story as well. I feel like that is the, like kindred spirit to the soul that I want it to be <laugh>. Like I, I'm very drawn to that kind of journey and that, that way of travel that I feel like we can't even tap into as much anymore. Like I feel like there's some parts of that that just don't exist. For example, like you said, going to Bali now, just it's, it just isn't, it is the same, but the, those moments of connection and being invited into someone's home and really just spending time being somewhere are definitely like the highlights of travel for me. And I'm preparing to travel for a year with my daughters. And like, as I'm trying to think about it, like I'll get caught up in thinking like, what are the things we have to see if we're in these places?
Christine:
And then the other part of me is like, oh, that's gonna be so frustrating. If you have to stand in a line to see Stonehenge, you're gonna be so irritated. Like you would much rather go somewhere else and have this completely different experience or, you know, I feel like I'm trying to balance these two different ways of traveling, more of this commercial tourism that we understand, I think at a greater scale as travel. And the one that I know is fulfilling and nourishing and trying to let that be the guide for this trip and let that tell me that I know we're not gonna miss anything, even if we are quote unquote missing some of the big things. So I would, I think kind of, I think this will play out in this conversation that we're about to have, but in the context of, you know, travel advisors and what they offer and the kind of experiences they can create, I think there's a little bit of that divide.
Christine:
I think we understand them to be able to, you know, book us a cruise book, some hotel nights, maybe arrange a car service, um, kind of take care of the details that maybe we don't know how to, to take care of. But then adding this layer of depth and impact isn't something that we always see as a part of the services that they offer. And after being in the industry for over 20 years, myself, like, I've had a lot of conversations with travel advisors and I know that many of them are doing this or many of them wish to be doing it, but don't know how to kind of set that stage. So I think that's what I would love to kind of start talking about with you. And perhaps beginning with how can travel advisors start to have these conversations with their clients, if this is something that's important to them, like it was important to you, maybe, what did that transition look like for you when you realized you wanted to really bring that impact into that part of your profession?
Rose:
Yeah, I, I mean, I love, I think it's such a rich question or rich questions, I think, um, something I've spent a lot of time thinking about. So I, you know, I thought, I, I think back to my travels and the continuation of my travels, um, and I, I would try to kind of pinpoint what is it about travel that is so transformative? Because I, I really have been transformed through travel. And I remember someone asking me, and this sounds so cliche, but it felt like the most honest answer I could, I could give. She said, you know, what is it that travel does for you? And I was like, well, it just, it opens my eyes and the most non cliche way, even though it's a cliche, it truly does. I am able to see things differently. And then the other thing, and this is becoming true and truer for me, is that it allows me to commune with the earth and with nature in a way that our lives don't often allow space for.
Rose:
And you know, more and more we're seeing that when we talk about sustainability at the heart of it, there has to be a massive paradigm shift in the way that we think about the earth. And I think about, you know, people tend to be most open and most receptive in my experience when they're traveling. And that's why I think, yes, the power of travel is enormous, but the power of the travel advisor is enormous. You have the ability to facilitate life-changing experiences for people that could change the course of the earth. Like honestly, I know that that sounds grandiose, but it's not like that is what's needed. And, um, I felt, you know, in my role as a travel advisor, to be honest, I joke about this. I have someone, so I was a travel advisor, I still am, but I'm really transitioning out. I have a brilliant woman, Laura, who has taken over my book of business and we've been collaborating for about a year.
Rose:
And I'll be totally transitioned out by the end of the year. And I joke about this with her, but I'm like, gosh, you are like so much better at this than I am. There's elements of the job that she just, it's clear that she, to me, I can look at what she's doing and she's one of the advisors in my training course right now. And the way that she's able to own the, the, the job and the work, I have no doubt she's gonna be able to really drive impact with individual clients. I could see that that wasn't quite the right container for me. I think I'm much more impactful, kind of working with people who are working with clients, um, either as advisors or, you know, as a hotelier or onsite partners. Um, but I do think that there's just this enormous opportunity to facilitate dramatic interpersonal change, you know, and to really think about ourselves in the context of the bigger world, which we all desperately need to do. You know, um, and I'm afraid I veered off a little bit from your original question,
Christine:
But it's good cuz I actually, we'll, we'll go back there, but I just was thinking, um, two, two things that I, one is understanding your zone of genius and how you can create impact, um, that you were just saying, you know, kind of what you realized about yourself. I was just talking with another, um, guest that's gonna be joining me next week about that. And, you know, she said, I worked in this asset, you know, this aspect of my career. I was really strong there and then, you know, some transitions and I decided to work for myself. And then I'm seeing that that's actually not where I can create impact. Like, I actually am really meant to lead teams of people and guide and create like this larger sphere of influence. And for me, like creating impact like one person at a time isn't who I am.
Christine:
It's just not how I serve. And so I think there's something really valuable in really understanding the way that you work and what your strong skills are and how you communicate and all these different pieces because once you identify that, then you can actually be creating a larger impact. So I, I love that you were able to kind of witness that in yourself. Um, and then also just the idea of how travel allows us to connect to place and to nature and how incredibly important that is, especially in sustainability, like you said, because that is going to set us out to be the people who are driven to conserve where we are. And I was just in Alaska a couple weeks ago leading a, a trip, which was amazing, but there was a moment where we were hiking and we were, um, 60 miles north of the Arctic Circle.
Christine:
So we are in an area in Alaska that I didn't know, but I guess less than 1% of people travel further than the Arctic Circle and some will just go there to say they've kind of been there and come back into Fairbanks. Um, so having the privilege of being on this land that many people don't see, we were in this village that has 13, um, members of community that live there all the time. Um, and the, the man that was leading our hike was saying, you know, I, we were in such awe of the beauty of where we were and the ruggedness and the, the challenges it takes to live there and, and why this place was so important. And he said, this, this is why I am doing this, is because when people see and understand and feel this, then they will feel obligated to protect what is here. And I think that's like one of the, the crazy, you know, the dichotomy of travel. Like you have to see it to protect it, and by seeing it sometimes you're doing it disservice to it and trying to find the balance of that. So I that really resonates with me what you were saying.
Rose:
Yeah. And I love, you said that you used the word awe and I think like, obviously the word awesome has been sort of taken on a different kind of meeting or more casual meeting. But when you really think about it, like having these experiences or getting to experience true awe is an enormously profound feeling and one that I have mostly experienced when I travel and places like Alaska or New, I've been spending a lot of time in New Mexico lately, and I just, you know, but I can also spend it here. It's like, it's interesting also you talking about, you know, this isn't something I talk about but I feel like I'm gonna share it today, is that I am traveling less. I, you know, it's, it is a really, really tough challenge in the travel industry is that we all have to, you know, make a living.
Rose:
And, and part of what we believe, and I think it's absolutely true, is that people need to experience the world to wanna protect it. And, but I also think we all need to travel less right now, you know, and at least travel with more purpose. And so I've been trying to look for, I've scaled back on my own personal travels. I'm still traveling. I have a couple tr trips planned in the next couple months, but I'm trying to be very, very conscious about the trips I take because I feel like, especially when I first came into the industry and all of a sudden there was all these places to experience and it was like a culture, it was a very sort of like a culture of consumption, just like consumption of everything. It was like consumption of travel experience. It's like, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna do this.
Rose:
And like, there wasn't a lot of consideration. Um, and I'm trying to really reframe that so that when I do take a trip, I'm really trying to understand like, what is my impact gonna be there? What is the potential for positive impact after I leave? Um, and to, to just have those questions in, in my mind, you know, and, and so, and try to find ways to connect here. Like I live in a small apartment, um, in sort of suburbia, but there are ways to connect to nature here that are really beautiful, you know, and even in my house, I'm surrounded by like, I think I'm up 67 house plants or something, and some, sometimes that's how I do it, you know, and I, I work long days
Christine:
And yeah. Yeah, I think that's, um, it's really important. And I think that paradigm shift that you're talking about is that, is that travel can't be for, you know, bucket lists and checking off all these experiences. I, I think we really got into a culture of that. Like, this was the way that you were kind of successful as a traveler or gaining status as a traveler. And I, I really hope that in the future our conversations are going to be more about these deep connections you make and understanding impact and, and maybe your, your badge of honor is like, you know, knowing your carbon emissions and how you like minimize them or how knowing the, the amount of money that you've spent that stayed in the deni the destination. And like really allowing travelers to know what their impact is. And so I, I think kind of going back to where we started is that travel advisors can play a part in this and, um, and and educating the travelers that come, are coming to them.
Christine:
I mean, they, they are serving the greatest amount of travelers, so their sphere of influence is really important. And I think that they can have a huge impact and impact that I can't have as a tour operator that's taking, you know, maybe 30 travelers a year because I'm, I'm only doing a few trips and I'm only taking very small groups so that I can be conscious of the impact that I'm creating. So I am not creating that larger impact through my company. But if you look at the, the amount of people that travel advisors touch, they can start to really create that impact pretty quickly. And they can also really influence the tourism supply chain and what, you know, hotels and airlines and cruise companies and operators are offering. So I would love to kind of talk about that, that sphere of things.
Rose:
Yeah, so I, I mean, I think you just hit the nail on the head. I think that travel advisors are really in this, you know, unique and enviable position of influencing supply and demand. Um, and it's, it's funny because the, the more I've learned and the more I've kind of started to develop training content, um, this is, I don't wanna, let's see, I'm gonna say what I'm gonna say and then I'm gonna clarify. Um, I put, I think of it as a pyramid. So I think about like education as like the foundation, because what I'm finding is a lot of advisors are like, I don't know how to have the conversation with the client, but what I try to help them understand is that that's like the tip of the pyramid. Like at the bottom you really need to have an understanding of what we're talking about.
Rose:
So just kind of diving into the course, cuz now we're actually, tomorrow we'll be module six. Um, so our first five modules have been, you know, an interest, sustainable travel 1 0 1. So what are we actually talking about? Because you've probably encountered this a lot. I still find that people have a very, very own narrow view. They're not really considering community or e economic or cultural impact. They're kind of just thinking about environment and even there, they don't necessarily have a deep understanding or they might not understand how these, you know, we were taught about these three pillars. But I don't love that because I think that it, it invites this sort of siloed approach when all of these things are in embedded with each other and nested. And I like the idea of thinking about, you know, the environmental circle and then concentric circles for commu or community and culture and economy, cuz they're all related to one another and, um, they don't exist sort of in a vacuum.
Rose:
Um, so we spend the first module just sustainable travel 1 0 1, what is it, what are the negative impacts of tourism? Let's be clear-eyed about this. What are the positive impacts? Um, and then we spend the second module really looking at the opportunity for the advisor. So everything we're talking about now, you know, the body of research that's saying, okay, well consumers at least are saying they really care about sustainable travel even if they're not acting that way yet, they're saying it. So on some level they care about this, you know, what is the opportunity for the advisor? We spend module three looking specifically at hotels and tour operators and going through a really kind of specific list of questions. This is how you start to vet your partners, you know, what are your emission Like, first of all, what is your sustainability strategy? Is it measurable?
Rose:
Is it, um, data driven? You know, is it something that you are transparent about? Do you publish a report? You know, there's a whole list of questions to really start engaging deeply with your partners. We moved on the next week to start talking about destinations. We watched the last tourist, which is so full of really important information, and also talking about high impact travel. You know, cruise is high impact, it's, it's hard airline travel, really high impact. But there are things that you can still look at. You know, United has made a huge, um, claim and started to invest heavily in, in sustainable aviation fuel and said they're gonna be carbon neutral without the use of offsets. That's a, that's a big claim and I'm curious to see how it goes, but, you know, that's good to at least hear that that's their intention. Um, and then we talked kind of all about carbon and natural resource and planetary boundaries, which is new information for a lot of people.
Rose:
Yes, they're kind of aware of climate change, but what are these other things and how do they play in, like, we had that module last week and there was a paper released last week, um, by Yale about how sort of co biodiversity and, um, of animal species can help sequester, you know, I can't remember what the specific number was, but just this vast amount more carbon in land when species are prolific and up to sort of their intended, um, population size. And so then all of a sudden it's like all of these things and that, that, that fall under the environmental bucket, but they all play into each other. And so that was new content. And then this week we're gonna look at behavioral economics, like why is there this green gap? Why do customers and travelers say they care about sustainability, but that's not what's driving them and how can advisors sort of, you know, fill that gap.
Rose:
So all of that knowledge needs to be there before you start having, and then the conversations become easier with the clients. You know, when you really have that, then all of a sudden you know what you're talking about. And you can kind of find an in, sometimes you're not even gonna use the word sustainable because, you know, for whatever reason we live in a very politicized world and this is become a political issue and it's not. And you know, there might, there might be different ways and different avenues in, into the heart of your client, but you can find a way in and, and, and figure out how to kind of tap into your client's values. Yeah.
Christine:
Uh, that I think that is, well one, like I'm so excited about the program and I'm just thinking, I was sitting here thinking, I'm like, how and why do I need to take this? Because I'm sure it's, I just am so excited about it. I'm really excited about giving, being able to give this information to people on a broader scale, especially those selling travel to understand a again, it's just the, the, like you said, the more understanding they have, the more they internalize it, the more it becomes important to them, the easier that conversation will be to have because it is just a part of them. And then totally like the, the idea of understanding the broader scope of sustainability I think is also really important and a conversation I find myself in kind of again and again. Um, and even going back to this other conversation I was referencing earlier, we were talking about this as well and kind of similar when you were talking about it, when you talk about the three pillars of sustainability, kind of my mind like, sees these things drawn on a piece of paper, right?
Christine:
Or painted on a piece of paper, and they're very, um, you know, exclusive and they're very like, you know, they're siloed like you said, they're just these, these points. But what I see under that is the paper that it's painted on mm-hmm. <affirmative> or drawn upon. And I, and actually that's the sustainability. Like it's everywhere. It's under, underneath all of these things and interwoven. And I think really realizing that it, it can't be done in these like little pockets. It really has to be done, uh, on a broad scale and really is done and is included in every aspect. And so then I think every decision really can be impacting sustainability and we kind of narrow the focus down almost too much by putting them in those three pillars. Like it's a great foundation for understanding how sustainability is, you know, in each of these areas.
Christine:
But at the same time, I think it also then takes away all the other places that it exists. And so, and I think that's maybe another shift that we're seeing even in sustainability right now. You know, the, the term regenerative kind of starts to broaden that out. But I, I think it'll be interesting to see in another 10 years that kind of, like you were saying, like we won't even maybe use the word sustainable, hopefully. It's just, um, kind of a, a paradigm shift that has occurred where all of these things are in consideration within the, the context of travel. Yeah, absolutely. Um, well we were, we started talking a little bit about the course and kind of got to the point of the education and the foundation. Um, but I would like to kind of think about more what are agents taking away from this course by the time, I know you're kind of going through it for the first time, but what are you noticing people are seeing? How are they responding to the information? You, you mentioned that they're already kind of bringing their own expertise and their lens and their enthusiasm to it. Um, what is, how is the course evolving because of that? Or what are you seeing as the potential?
Rose:
Well, um, I should have mentioned this cuz this is hugely foundational to the course, but in the first session, sort of in the def you know, defining sustainable travel, we looked at the SDGs, the sustainable development goals and had them kind of do an exercise that really looked at the intersection of, you know, what they're most passionate about in life, not just about their jobs, but in life, what are they best at and kind of what really drives them and motivates them. And then we ask them to really align that to the best of their ability to an S D G or maybe two SDGs. And, and they all picked, you know, picked one and that has been sort of their anchor throughout the course. So everything that we ask them to do going forward, and there's homework associated, it's intensive. We give a lot of reading and a lot of homework.
Rose:
And we also ask that they attend, you know, um, at least eight of the sessions live like cameras on, it's zoom, but um, you know, it's recorded, but we really want that engagement and participation. Um, so they've had this S D G that carries them through. So each week there'll be some kind of a, a homework associated with the content we're learning. And it could be, you know, to start making a list of your suppliers and to start coming up with questions that you're gonna ask around sustainability. And again, we've provided a really robust list of questions, but then we've asked, you know, according to your specific S D G, what are three questions you wanna take from, what are your top three questions? And maybe they don't exist on the list yet. And then how are you gonna start engaging your partners? And again, it's not about sort of being punitive or, you know, creating a gotcha moment to discover that someone's not.
Rose:
It's really about how do we start collaborating as an industry? Um, because, you know, maybe if I ask a partner, and maybe if you ask a partner, it's not gonna do much, but once five or 10 advisors start really prioritizing theirs, they're gonna start to think, Hmm, okay, this is, this is important and that these, these are, you know, bring however many millions of dollars of business each year and I've gotta start paying attention to this. So we've already started to ask them to have these client, these conversations with clients, I'm sorry, with, with some suppliers. And now for the last few modules, we're really moving into, um, client work. Mm-hmm. And then the question becomes more about how do I really align, you know, if when I start introducing. So, so we also, I should say, um, we focus a lot on making the sustainable option the default option.
Rose:
So even if you don't wanna have a conversation, like just put, put sustainability in front of your client, don't put anything else in front of your client, I, the more I learn, the more I believe that that's the answer. You know? Yes. Also meet the other client requirements, but do your vetting on the backend and work with suppliers who are committed to this and put those options in front of your clients. Yeah. You know, and then you can talk about what the value add is, you know, and again, you don't even have to use, like, you can use whatever language is most resonant with your client or whatever element, you know, that's most resonant with your personal s d g. Let's say you're really interested in sort of poverty alleviation, like you can talk about sort of community tourism and that, that you're working with this particular tour operator cause they're heavily involved in that and getting you off the beaten path.
Rose:
And you know, like, so I think that, um, those client conversations sort of are rooted in, in all of this experience that they've, they've just had. And, um, and that yeah, you're, you're presenting it as a value add. It's like a lot of, I've seen a lot of advisors come in, you know, first of all really lacking confidence in their ability to speak about sustainability. And that is just like through the roof. I had, I think I mentioned this in the beginning, but I had a, a press inquiry last week and I wrote the reporter back and I, I said, you know, I can answer these, but I would actually really love it if some of my students could answer because, and they did. And their answers were like, they blew my mind just what they've learned and how they've integrated it. And like you said, I, you said something that was, I thought really wonderful.
Rose:
You said like sort of they, they personally integrate it and becomes part of them and it's just so natural they were able to speak to all of these things. Well, how do you determine if a supplier is really, and they talked about data and sustainability reporting and what to look for and questions to ask and certifications and B corp and just thing they answered in just this fabulously robust manner that I was so impressed by. So they're already just integrating it and already thinking about ways that they can sort of apply their own business acumen to, to driving impact in a variety of ways and ways that they can really highlight sustainability on their itineraries and start, you know, put one of 'em is just super entrepreneurial and like, she wants to start collaborating with sort of community, um, tourism enterprises and different destinations and be able to drive more of her client's money there by forming like strategic partnerships and mm-hmm.
Rose:
It's brilliant. Like it's just in the beginning of stages, but her ideas are brilliant. Mm-hmm. Um, so it's just, it's just so fabulously exciting. And, and again, it kind of goes back to what you were talking about earlier, this idea of sort of your own kind of core competency or kind of creative genius or whatever you wanna call it. Like, I, I would've never been able as an advisor to come up with some of these ideas. You know, I was, it just wasn't where I was meant to to be. But being able to kind of hold, create this container for other advisors to learn and then go out and implement it is so rewarding and so just inspiring and exactly what I wanna be doing.
Christine:
Yeah. I love that I am a container creator as well, <laugh>.
Christine:
Um, and it's, it's so good because it's, yeah, like I can't do all of the things, but I can create the space in which all of the things can still happen, I think. Yeah. Um, yeah, and I, I love that you talked about identifying the s t g that you most align with, because I think that's kind of one of the things I talk about when people are saying, you know, how can I travel more sustainably or how can I make more choice, better choices? And people get overwhelmed, and there's a lot to know as you're talking about it, it takes a lot to really begin to understand sustainability, but if you have a personal connection to it, it makes it a lot easier. So, you know, I I will say like, as a traveler, maybe you are very passionate about marine conservation or you're very passionate about gender equity or clean water or poverty alleviation.
Christine:
So I love the idea of maybe just kind of going to the SDGs as a traveler too, and saying, how do I make my choices aligned with this? And, and, um, for me, gender equity is a huge one, and that's what, what my company, you know, services. So when I travel, that's kind of my first question is, you know, are there women owned businesses here, hotels, guides, operators, um, you know, how can I be supporting gender equity? What's the systemic, you know, play the, you know, the, what are the different systems of oppression in a country? How, how am I, how is my travel supporting that, adding to it, um, supporting advancement of women? Like these are all the questions I ask. I can't do all of the things every time I travel. And I, I think that's where it can become very overwhelming. Um, but I can do this.
Christine:
And the other thing for me that I've really been focusing on this year is how interlace gender equity is actually with all of the sustainable development goals that we're really finding that gender equity is tied to climate and to education and to poverty. And so in some ways, for me, I feel like it's a cheater s d g because it hits all of them, but it's totally, that's so important to me, but I think that's so great to, to give your advisors like a way to kind of narrow it and really own it and be passionate about it. And then again, that gives them the ability to kind of like and speak through it.
Rose:
Yeah. Yeah. And actually, I love, it's so interesting what you said about gender, because I think that I've heard other people who've identified different goals say the same thing. Well, I love this one because it actually ties into all of the other ones. And I feel like that's what happens when you find your goal is you find like your portal, you know, um, and you're so right. Like, I think that it takes passion and hope and a real determination that can be found through that identification of the, of the S D G that is most resonant to you. And it takes those things to persevere in the face of everything that we're seeing around us, you know, with the earth, it, um, it's hard because it's like, I don't, you know, sometimes I do like one off trainings like an hour, and I don't necessarily go as deep into the realities of what we're facing right now, because I don't know how effective it is in a one hour window for, for people. But in this course, we spent last week really talking about it, and I think it's really important, and it's also important that we don't get stuck in the problem that we move to solution and how to drive impact. But I mean, we all need passion and hope to sustain us through this because it's, it's serious, you
Christine:
Know? Yeah. And I, I do think the kind of narrowed focus gives us that because we can, we can take an action that really does feel like we're creating an impact. And, and even if it's little, but if every person has their own that they're working toward, then everyone is creating impact. And so I think it's just really important. I, I think that's the other thing is people are like, well, I can't solve, you know this, so why try? Well, oh my goodness, please don't try to solve this. Yeah, it'd be great if you were the person that could, but totally, they're gonna just freeze. We were also talking about perfection paralysis before we got on this call as well. And like, I think that's the thing is like with sustainability, people really feel like they're going to do it wrong, and so they don't do anything. And I think the more education you have and the more like strategies or ways of examining how you can create impact, then pe people like kind of dissolve that fear of doing it wrong or they just focus on what they know they can do. Right.
Rose:
Yeah. Yeah.
Christine:
Um, well, before we wrap up our call, I would love to kind of talk a little bit more about sustainable wanderlust and what you do. We focused so much on this program, which again, I'm just like beyond excited for, I cannot wait to see the next iteration and to have, like, hear from agents of what it, what it has been meant for them to go through this for advisors to just like to see this move through their business. But, um, I would love to talk a little bit more about, you know, what you're doing beyond training and education with your sustainability assessments and business strategy and marketing and who, who that's for a lot of my listeners are small businesses that are focused on impact and sustainability. So I'd love for them to know like what might be a benefit in working with you?
Rose:
Sure. Um, so at the moment we work with, we have a variety of travel businesses. It's predominantly, we, we've had this ongoing project with the travel agency Avenue two. Um, and that's been, it, it's been a wonderful project for us. And that's actually where we're piloting the training course because they were really open and really excited to just implement sort of a full bore sustainability strategy for an agency and didn't know how to approach it. And, you know, through a collaboration with us, we've really kind of discovered ample opportunity for it for agencies. And I think that there has been, I think US agencies, um, are us luxury agencies, and again, I'm not familiar with all of them, so I'm sure there are ones doing tr tremendously valuable things that I'm not aware of, but sort of in, in the circle that I was in, I think that they were behind in their, you know, in a little bit, sort of absent from the conversation of, of what can we do, you know, as travel sellers to, to, to provide sustainable options.
Rose:
So we did everything with them. You know, the big thing was we, uh, took them through the B Corp process. So they're actually in the final verification phase right now. But that's one of the services that we provide, um, to a lot of businesses is they're interested in pursuing B Corp certification. They don't necessarily know how, you know, it is a hundred percent something that you can do on your own. The be impact assessment is free to everyone. I highly suggest as a business that you go through that even if you don't plan on certifying, just to assess where you are, I think it's a wonderfully, um, comprehensive evaluation system of responsible business practice. And then for businesses that maybe we work with, you know, hotels for instance, or other travel businesses who just want some facilitation and some stewardship and, you know, we provide, um, sort of the value of and really understanding the process.
Rose:
So that's, that's one of the key kind of, um, services that we offer is, is certification stewardship, um, but then it's everything. It's just really assessing, okay, where is your business? You know, with a hotel it's like really understanding. I wanna really understand what is your relationship to waste water and energy emissions, you know, greenhouse gas assessments we do, um, where opportunities to, to reduce all of those things. Where are there more opportunities to localize your supply chain? I think that that is huge. And again, kind of talking about, you know, how these things are not siloed, like by localizing your supply chain and really understanding how local your supply chain is, you have the opportunity to not just, you know, drive positive impact in the community that your business is located, but when you start to about sort of embodied carbon of, of, you know, if you're importing products and food from all over the place, just think about the amount of resource and the amount of energy that went into producing that product and shipping it to you and think about how much, um, how many emissions can be, um, sort of not consumed by, you know, procuring that product locally.
Rose:
So a lot of what we do is just assessing where a business is at right now and then making full recommendations about how they can really approve and then how they can build sort of, um, sustainable relationships within the, the luxury travel network, because that's where I'm very well connected and have a lot of really deep ties and tend to know kind of, you know, who's, who focused on that. And I think that there's opportunity for a lot more collaboration. So it's about, you know, first and foremost, like one of, I have a, a partner who is fantastic, um, who helps me, um, with all of this, her name's Natalie, and you know, we will not help a business greenwash. We just absolutely will not participate in that. So if someone wants us to help market a sustainability strategy that doesn't exist, we're not going to do that. But if the sustainability, you know, if we have vetted it and we really believe in it and there are meaningful initiatives in place and there's accountability and transparency, then yes, we can also help you message that so that it's effective and people understand the good work you're doing.
Christine:
Yeah. Um, and I think that's something that is so important because we, we often talk about kind of the, the glamorization and the, the, the, you know, the, the trends of these topics becoming marketing points. And so we've clearly seen that in waves over the past 10, 15, 20 years of what is the, the buzzword that is centered around this area of travel. And so that's been one of the really frustrating things is then people become disenchanted with this thing. Yeah. Because I think it's just a marketing ploy and not an actual action strategy. And I, I also think we're maybe I hopefully move moving past that, um, that people now do really realize that it is for mid many businesses, uh, you know, the, an extension of their core values in the way they are actually operating in the world. But, um, I think it's important still to just realize that that can't be, you know, the standalone way of your marketing.
Christine:
And I think even like you said, a lot of businesses are not using any of the words like sustainable or eco-friendly or community led or, or anything because they don't want to be perceived as gimmicky towards a trend when, when they really are doing it or they don't want to deter clients for reasons, like you said, that are political or social reasons because you're using these labels. So you, it becomes really interesting when you're having conversations about marketing and communications. And I think this is something for me, I've gone all over the place within my business is, okay, I'm gonna be so values forward, I'm gonna be super transparent, this is all I'm gonna talk about. And then someone comes back and says like, you're turning away so many customers because they don't understand this thing. You have to have it be more subtle. And so then I go back to subtle and then I'm like, no, I really wanna be in your face about it, <laugh>. Um, so I, I think it's, it's so interesting and I, and I, so that really, you know, I relate to advisors having those same questions and concerns cuz even marketing my business, I, I have gone through, gone through that. So I think that you being able to guide businesses and how to create a foundation going through the B Corp assessment, like you said, whether you're applying or not understanding where you are and then choosing how you're gonna talk about this is really important for a business. Yeah.
Rose:
Yeah.
Christine:
Um, well before we wrap up, I just have a few rapid fire questions, but before that I just wanna give you the chance to, um, share how people can get in touch with you. Um, if you have any information about if beyond the pilot program, if people can be following you to find the next iteration of this, I would love to be able to share that as well.
Rose:
Yeah, so I think the best way it's probably Instagram. Um, it has not been super active, not my core competency, but we're getting help there. So, and we really want to kind of reach people specifically about the training program. So it's at sustainable underscore wanderlust, um, and then sustainable wanderlust.com is our website and then you can find me on LinkedIn where I'm probably a little more active and that's Rose O'Connor. Okay. Um, so those are the best ways. Great.
Christine:
Yeah. Um, okay, well we'll jump into these last few questions then. Um, what are you reading right now?
Rose:
Oh gosh, I love this. So I'm actually listening on tape to braiding Sweetgrass, which I had never read and is as magical as everyone said. I just finished, um, entangled Life. So it's a fantastic book about mycology and mushrooms. And then I'm also reading Thinking Fast and Slow, I just picked up, um, because I'm really interested in this behavioral, um, economics and why people make the decisions that they make and ties into a lot of what we were talking about <laugh>. Yeah,
Christine:
I love that you're um, reading multiple things in multiple formats cuz I have found that that's how I'm consuming information as well. And when I was just in Alaska we had quite a conversation about braid sweetgrass, um, and how just incredible that book is. So I would highly recommend it. I think most of my listeners would really take so much from reading that book.
Rose:
It is wonderful. Like, get it. It's so,
Christine:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then to kind of go back to our, our, uh, beginnings of this conversation with oils and goddess statues and stones. I was doing, um, a yoga session and we were pulling cards and, and right after that conversation I had pulled a card about um, sweet Sweetgrass. And so, oh there's definitely, um, just a lot of magic around that topic or I think a lot still to uncover. But anyway. I love that you
Rose:
Definitely
Christine:
Recommended it. Uh, what is always in your suitcase or your backpack when you travel?
Rose:
Mm, my camera, I like to take, I like to take pictures, especially, um, wildlife pictures and mm-hmm. <affirmative> landscape pictures.
Christine:
Yeah. Um, to Sojourn is to travel somewhere as if you lived there for a short while. Uh, where is a place that you would still love to sojourn?
Rose:
Mm. Is it someplace I haven't been yet, or someplace
Christine:
Where you could return <laugh>.
Rose:
Okay. Well you know what, I've been really interested in more, more exploration of the US so I would say Alaska, which you've talked about, and I'll be back in June and then New Mexico. I am in love with New Mexico and just wanna go back and back and back.
Christine:
Yeah. Yeah. I haven't been to New Mexico before. We tried to go during the pandemic and it didn't really work out. There was places that we wanted to go that weren't accessible and I just decided not to make that choice, but I would love to go. Um, what do you eat that immediately connects you to a place that you've been?
Rose:
Hmm. I'm a super boring eater. Um, but I think actually going back to sort of the Bali, there's like black rice pudding that I'll still eat and I remember vividly from the first time I went just authentic black rice pudding. And it, I can remember the monsoons and this is the other thing about travel, it, it connects me so deeply with my mom, you know, and will for as long as I'm on earth and yeah. It'll always be special.
Christine:
Yeah. Well I'm looking forward to, to forging those connections with my daughters here really soon cuz I do. Totally. It's so important and I, someone was sharing with me that a quote about, or a study about children and the thing that they remember most is their travel experiences. That's one of the things that really sticks with them. Um, and so I need to go back and find that. But I, I think that that's really true cuz it just, like, even if you can't remember, it kind of becomes a part of, of who you are, so. Totally, yeah. Totally. Um, well I, we've kind of talked about this, but who was a person that inspired or encouraged you to set out and explore the world? Hey mom. Yeah. Um, and if you could take an adventure with one person, fictional or real alive or past, who would it be?
Rose:
Oh, what a great question. Okay. So my obsession is right now is biomimicry. I'm totally obsessed and I'm obs obsessed with Janine, um, Beez. So I think I would wanna go on a trip with her and learn more about biomimicry.
Christine:
Oh my goodness. I, this is one of my favorite questions cuz I love when people tap into <laugh>, things like that, like this, uh, a moment you wouldn't expect. Um, the last one, um, soul of Travel is really for honoring, uh, women in the space of travel, elevating their voices and their experiences. Uh, who is one woman in the tourism industry you admire and would love to recognize in this space.
Rose:
So it's someone who has been on your podcast recently and is a friend of mine, um, and who I greatly admire. And that's Shivia na.
Christine:
Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, she is incredible. She's one of the people I wish I could have a 12 part conversation with because she has so much, uh, knowledge and insight and care and wisdom. So thank you for recognizing her in this space and for anybody listening to this episode, make sure you go back and listen. I know that she and I had a little bit of a connectivity issue, but the, the conversation is really beautiful and, and worth the time to listen. So, um, thank you Rose so much for joining me. I, like I said, I'm just been so excited by your work and I am so glad to have brought it to the podcast and I can't wait to, to kind of check back in with you and hear how much impact that you've been able to create through, through the work you're doing.
Rose:
Thank you so much. This was lovely. Just such a wonderful way to spend an hour, and I really appreciate being here. So thank you. Thank
Christine:
You.
Christine:
Thank you for listening to Soul of Travel. I hope you enjoyed the journey. If this sounds like your community, welcome, I'm so happy to connect with you. You can find more about the ways you can be a part of the Soul of Travel and Lotus Sojourn community@www.lotussojourns.com. Here you can find out more about Soul of Travel and my guests. You can also find the Lotus Sojourns I Guide for Women, as well as my current book, sojourn, offering an opportunity to explore your heart, mind, and the world through the pages of books specially selected to create a unique journey. You can find me on Facebook at Lotus Sojourns and join our community, the Lotus Sojourns Collective, or follow me on Instagram, either at Lotus Sojourns or Soul of Travel podcast. Join the Lotus Sojourns mailing list. I look forward to getting to know you and hopefully hear your story.
You can find me on Facebook at Lotus Sojourns on Facebook, or join the Lotus Sojourns Collective, our FB community, or follow me on Instagram either @lotussojourns or @souloftravelpodcast. Stay up to date by joining the Lotus Sojourns mailing list. I look forward to getting to know you and hopefully hearing your story.