Episode 137 - Casey Hanisko, Casey Hanisko Coaching + Consulting
As travelers and travel and tourism professionals, honoring the work of women+ is the very first step in creating economic systems that are more sustainable, more compassionate, and more positively impactful.
This week’s Soul of Travel Podcast guest is Casey Hanisko, a passionate advocate for women’s leadership in adventure travel and tourism. Casey is a leadership and business coach and adventure travel marketing and sustainability consultant.
As former president of the Adventure Travel Trade Association (ATTA) and an executive in the private travel industry, Casey has a history of seeking ways to uplift and spotlight women+ leaders in travel. Her endeavors include leading ATTA’s women's leadership initiative, organizing women’s leadership forums, and mentoring women+ personally and through Camber’s Ann Krick Mentorship program. Casey is a member of the International Women’s Forum and Washington Women’s Foundation and has written and spoken about women+ leadership throughout her career.
Casey helps women+ in the adventure and outdoor industries be great leaders and build great businesses. As an advocate for women’s advancement in the industry, she collaborates with women+ to support their leadership growth with creativity, empathy, and accountability. Tapping into passion and purpose, she focuses on helping women+ bring their whole selves to work and embrace their natural leadership style, giving it value and a voice.
Opportunities for Women in Adventure Travel
Casey vulnerably shares why and how it was important for her to spend so much time developing her voice throughout her life. When she was in college, her eyes – and many doors – were opened by a women’s history course, and gender equity studies soon followed.
When she started working in travel, it was “men at the top.” Within Zegrahm and the Adventure Travel Trade Association, Casey advocated for change to encourage more women+ leaders, as the leadership arena was nearly entirely men.
Christine posits that it was accepted that men sought leadership roles in adventure travel after experiencing that type of travel as young men – and also shares how many more women are now present in adventure travel leadership, bringing conversations and perspectives into the fold. Casey shares that for the ATTA, this growth was intentionally created, as the organization consciously invented ways to invite women to speak at their events.
Gender Equity in Tourism Through Local Support
When investing in women throughout the supply chain in the travel and tourism industry, Casey urges tour operators and business owners to start as locally as possible. Look for restaurants, hoteliers, and tour operators led by women in host communities. This effort, Casey shares, will have a more significant local impact on families and the local community and environment. Translating this to businesses works as well; carrying sustainability into the future requires considering the future of a place.
She encourages travel companies to continue educating travelers about the best practices for making a positive social impact while traveling; this education has the potential to change the very way people travel, amplifying the effect of this more mindful approach.
Leading In Your Voice
More women are cultivating the future of travel and seeing what type of needs businesses have – and will have – as travel continues to grow. With more than 80% of all travel being booked by women, there is enormous value in having this experience when stepping foot into the travel industry in our own businesses as entrepreneurs.
Christine shares that even the experience of applying for positions in existing companies is skewed, as women tend to refrain from applying if they do not meet all of the requirements.
Casey shares that in her coaching, it’s often about helping women identify their accomplishments and skills with pride, digging into language and possibilities rather than focusing on negatives or missing skills. Creating this flexibility between work and personal life often reveals skills and strengths that we can own and translate into new opportunities.
Growing Women+ Entrepreneurs in Travel and Tourism
Casey explores leadership topics through social impact and compassion, sparked by her reading of When Women Lead by Julia Boorstin. For example, businesses women create often consider the effect of business decisions on multiple generations or on host communities. This is an opportunity for women+ to lead the way in sustainable travel in ways that balance the needs of businesses to design affordable yet thoughtful approaches.
Casey shouts out one travel company founder who runs trips considering topics such as body positivity, inclusivity, and affinity spaces for Black and Indigenous people.
Christine prompts Casey to speak to the unique challenges women+ face when creating these types of businesses, and Casey agrees it’s a difficult thing to balance.
“I think that women need to really embrace that it’s okay to run a business and make money off a business and be purpose-driven at the same time,” says Casey.
For all business owners, she believes that purpose-driven businesses need to make money to make an impact. Building margins and best business practices are important. If impact and socially-driven purpose is part of the mission and vision of the company, Casey shares, it’s essential to include goals across the board – revenue, impact, and team.
Bringing Your Full Self Into Your Leadership
Early on in her experience at the ATTA, Casey shares her memory of the first summit in Switzerland as one by one, the six men at the table shared fight stories. Casey, however, had nothing to share. No way to connect. So she observed. She noticed how excluded she felt, noticed that stories of aggression and protection had no place in her personal history.
When thinking about male leadership, the language around battles, fighting, and overcoming has historically been present. For Casey, her approach is to bring vulnerability and openness to her leadership. She shared her cancer journey with her team and her mental health challenges with her family. Knowing that her team was comprised of whole people, too, Casey modeled what it was to honor every part of who we are.
Collaboration and curiosity are gifts, not roadblocks. Compassion is essential for the future of leadership and the future of travel.
“if more of us are leading companies or at the table, it’s going be positive for the future of the planet. ”
Soul of Travel Episode 137 At a Glance
In this conversation, Christine and Casey discuss:
Gender equity in tourism
Leadership in travel and tourism
Experiences with and influences of masculine leadership in adventure travel
Entrepreneurship and aligning business with our whole selves
Join Christine now for this soulful conversation with Casey Hanisko.
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Related UN Sustainable Development Goals
Sustainable Development Goal #5: Achieve gender equality and empower all women and girls.
Sustainable Development Goal #11: Make cities and human settlements inclusive, safe, resilient and sustainable.
Sustainable Development Goal #13: Take urgent action to combat climate change and its impacts.
Resources & Links Mentioned in the Episode
To learn more about Casey Hanisko’s leadership coaching and sustainability consulting, visit the website!
Visit your local bookstore or the author’s website to find your copy of When Women Lead by Julia Boorstin, Lessons in Chemistry by Bonnie Garmus, and What’s Up With White Women by Ilsa Govan and Tilman Smith.
Follow Casey on your favorite social media network!
Connect with Casey on LinkedIn or Facebook!
About the Soul Of Travel Podcast
Soul of Travel honors the passion and dedication of people making a positive impact in the tourism industry. In each episode, you’ll hear the stories of women who are industry professionals, seasoned travelers, and community leaders. Our expert guests represent social impact organizations, adventure-based community organizations, travel photography and videography, and entrepreneurs who know that travel is an opportunity for personal awareness and a vehicle for global change.
Join us to become a more educated and intentional traveler as you learn about new destinations, sustainable and regenerative travel, and community-based tourism. Industry professionals and those curious about a career in travel will also find value and purpose in our conversations.
We are thought leaders, action-takers, and heart-centered change-makers who inspire and create community. Join host Christine Winebrenner Irick for these soulful conversations with our global community of travelers exploring the heart, the mind, and the globe.
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Credits. Christine Winebrenner Irick (Host, creator, editor). Carla Campos (Guest). Original music by Clark Adams. Editing, production, and content writing by Carly Oduardo.
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WE WON A BESSIE AWARD! The Bessie Awards recognize the achievements of women and gender-diverse people making an impact in the travel industry. To view the complete list of 2022’s winners, visit bessieawards.org.
Soul of Travel Episode 137 Transcript
Women’s travel, transformational travel, sustainable travel, women leaders in travel, social entrepreneurship
Christine:
Casey Hanisko is a passionate advocate for women's leadership and has prioritized that in her career for over 25 years in the adventure tourism industry. As former president of the Adventure Travel Trade Association, and executive and private travel industry, K Casey is now a leadership and business coach and adventure travel marketing and sustainability consultant. Throughout her career, she has sought ways to lift up and put the spotlight on women Leaders among her endeavors include leading ATTs women leadership initiative, organizing, women's leadership forums, and mentoring women personally, and through Cam Bear's and quick mentorship program. She's a member of the International Women's Forum and Washington Women's Foundation, and has written and spoken about women leadership throughout her career. As a coach, Casey helps women plus in the adventure and outdoor industries be great leaders and build great businesses. As an advocate for women's advancement in the industry, she collaborates with women to support their leadership growth with creativity, empathy and accountability.
Christine:
Tapping into passion and purpose, she focuses on helping women bring their whole self to work and to embrace their innate leadership style, giving it value and a voice. In our conversation, Casey and I talk about gender equity and tourism leadership in the industry and our experiences with masculine leadership and how that shaped us as leaders, how we can create a workplace where everyone can show up more aligned with their true self, and how important coaches and mentors are in our careers. Love these soulful conversations. We rely on listener support to produce our podcast. You can support me in amplifying the voices of women by making a donation on PayPal. The link is in the show notes. Join me now for my soulful conversation with Casey Esco.
Christine:
Welcome to Soul of Travel podcast. Today I am very excited to j be joined by Casey Hesco, who has recently launched, uh, a new coaching and consulting business. So I feel really excited to be able to talk with you about that. Share, um, the transition that's recently happened and, you know, let people know what, where you're at, and I'm sure they'll be just as excited as I am to know that you're here to start to support, uh, women in the adventure and outdoor industry. So, uh, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to talk with you. Yes. Uh, yeah, I know we met, we met very quickly, um, at eight TTA in Switzerland, and we're super excited to have a conversation, and then we've kind of been in this space of waiting and transitioning, which I think has been actually a really, uh, exciting space to be, kind of feel like I can be with you in that moment as you're waiting to see what is the next phase of your journey. So I, I love that we were able to share that. Um, but Casey, before we get started, I'd love for you to just introduce yourself. Tell us a little bit about who you are and who you are in the space of travel right now, and then we'll, uh, take it from there.
Casey:
Great. Yeah, thank you. Um, well, some people might know me because I wa was the president of the Adventure Travel Trade Association for about five years, and before that I was, um, vice president, and I also worked at Zeiger Expeditions for about 14 years, um, which is a, a land and sea, um, expedition company that was very focused on conservation and sort of high-end adventure travel trips. So I've been in the, the adventure travel space for a really long time. And along that, um, journey, I have spent a lot of time managing people and really also supporting women leaders, which has been really important to me. And so, um, over the c past couple of years, as you can imagine, with Covid and just, you know, the struggles that the industry has been in, I really, um, started to just really embrace and, and dive more into the, um, the responsibility of coaching others and helping them become leaders in the industry.
Casey:
And so that was happening while I was at a T T A. And so I have just launched a, a coaching and consulting business for the adventure travel industry, really focused on, on women from the coaching perspective, but of course, um, adventure travel businesses as well. Um, overall. So I'm really excited to help, um, people really dive into sort of who they are as a leader, um, bring their leadership voice to the table, help support people management, which is really sort of needed in the industry right now is there's a lot of sort of new, new leaders and managers coming up, um, and just doing storytelling and sustainability work, um, with the industry.
Christine:
Yeah. Thank you so much for walking us through that. Um, I'd love to hear a little bit more about the, your connection to travel and understand how travel found you or how you found travel. <laugh>. It usually seems like travel finds us and like brings us into this web, but I'd love to hear what that looked like for you.
Casey:
Oh, that's kind of a crazy story for me. Um, so I mean, usually I start with how I got into the industry, but as a, as a young adult after college, um, I was a Spanish minor and I went to Guatemala, um, and did an aversion program, um, after college. And that was really my first experience outside of the country. I had done a lot of national, um, travel in the us, um, but my grandparents were travelers. So I sort of had this, this, I knew travel was a possibility and ha had always been, um, an outdoorsy person, um, because of my family. So we were, we canoed, we hiked, we skied, we did all of those things. Um, anyway, so when I went to Guatemala and Honduras, I was like just really, I really loved the experience, the cultural experience of that. And when I went back, um, home, I decided to move out to Seattle and, um, was in Seattle and working at a bank, which was not my dream job.
Casey:
And, um, so I was volunteering, um, teaching English as a second language at the Refugee Women's Alliance. And when I was there I was co-teaching a class with a woman who worked at Zebra Expeditions and they were starting a space voyage division and WA was looking for somebody to support that. And so I decided to interview. And so I got a role at the space voyage department. As you can imagine, I mean, there's a whole story around what is that mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But the the gist is, is that I started there and I really got, I was a program manager, so I was helping, um, sell the several orbital flights to space and then we got into deep sea. And so I was very much working with clients, but also we were doing a lot of marketing and communications, as you can imagine, because what is space voyages? What does that mean? How do you sell that? How do you, it's very exciting and different. And so I really got into the marketing and sort of storytelling side early on in my career because of, it was such a unique experience. So after that, you know, my career, career continued and it's a long journey from that.
Christine:
Yeah. Thank you for sharing. Um, and I love kind of hearing and seeing a little bit of the, the connection to gender equity and where you were talking about working with the refugees and just kind of layering in these pieces of impact with travel, which like slowly start to become, I think really important to you as you work in adventure travel, and then learn more about conservation and gender equity and how all these pieces come together. Um, and you know, you already mentioned that you have such a dedication to creating a space for women in the industry and supporting them. Is that something that was sparked by a particular incident or is this something that you think was just an inherent in you? I know for myself, like looking back at my journey, I see that now I see that it was with me all the way, even when I was a young child, I could see these moments where I was just this like tiny feminist who was advocating for the voices of women to be heard, like in all these different places. But I wonder for you if that was something that happened as you stepped into roles and see that saw that you needed support or there were barriers you were facing your, um, on your own, or if that was something that has already been a part of, of who you are and what you wanted to create.
Casey:
Hmm. That's a really great question. Um, I actually think it started, it started probably when I was younger in that my, my mother was not, um, and still continues to this day to not be like a particularly vocal person. And so in her marriage to my father, she didn't really stand up for herself. So I think that's one of the reasons why now after so many years, um, having a strong believing in your voice and using your voice is incredibly important to me because my mother did not do that. And so I think over time, reflecting back, that is one of the reasons why it's, it's important. I had to spend a lot of time developing my voice because I did not have that as an example from her. And I had a very loud voice from my father that wasn't necessarily a positive influence.
Casey:
Um, but when I got to college, um, I took a women's, um, I don't remember what it was called, but a women's equity class. And it was fascinating to me. It was, you know, it really just opened a lot of doors. I was an English major and so I, I had always read a lot of women authors. That was already always important to me. But then I, I really got into sort of gender equity studies and so I had that as sort of a base, but I would say like within TR travel, you know, sort of bringing those elements, sort of that thread through. Um, when I started travel, it was men at the top, you know, it was, it was not women. And I think as I went into different companies, um, you know, I spent a lot of, you know, unusually, I spent a lot of time at, you know, two places really. Ze Graham and the Adventure Travel Trade Association. And at both of those organizations, it was majority women, I mean majority men at the top. And it was something that I definitely advocated for change and helped sort of bring more women to the table and, um, change that dynamic over time. But as I entered those spaces, it was mostly men and it was something that I wanted to change because I saw it, it was obvious.
Christine:
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, I think it's so interesting cuz for part of my own awareness of this, um, was the first adventure travel, um, summit that I went to when I was early in my career 20 years ago, I think, around there. And, um, and in that moment I was really gravitate gravitating toward a few women that were showing up as leaders in that space. And it was very few, may may have literally been two people. And I kept, as I started, you know, moving on in my career and I would keep touching back with these certain people. I would think, what is it about them that I am admiring or what is it about them that I'm kind of emulating? And then what I really realized it, it was just the fact that they were there because they were one of the, you know, some of the only women in leadership roles that I really could emulate and look up to and, and seek to aspire to be.
Christine:
And, um, probably a very similar time I was working at Linblad Expeditions in Seattle, so, you know, very similar. There was so many male leaders, um, and not that they weren't also great mentors, but I, I kept wondering, you know, why aren't women in this space and because it is adventure travel. And I would hear the stories of these men who were leaders talking about their adventures as young men and how that kind of led them into these roles. I was thinking, well, maybe it's because, you know, women can't lead adventure travel companies or, you know, I was kind of always asking these questions in the back of my mind and um, and had such a great moment coming back to the event this year in Switzerland and seeing how many women were present, who are present, how many more women are leading companies or are in leadership roles and, and seeing so many more women on the stage, particularly with a really great panel this year and have watched, you know, you as a leader there, bringing more conversations about women. So, um, I just, it's been really interesting to see that evolve in this space. Um, for you, what challenges do you think you have faced in supporting women in the adventure travel space? And do you see any u unique opportunities in this market segment for women as well?
Casey:
Um, well challenges, you know, it, it had, it had been challenging to, um, it was challenging cuz we had to be very purposeful about creating change, right? So I don't, I don't even, I think it was maybe six years ago, COVID kind of creates this blur of time, maybe it was seven where we really started focusing, um, at the A T T A on, on a women's leadership initiative. And in particular about getting more women speakers on stage because we would be meeting about content for the events and be thinking, oh, we need to have a session on, um, uh, sustaina sustain marketing sustainability or, I don't know, branding or I don't, all the things and names would start to get out about who could be a speaker and it was a man and then it was another man and then a man. And so you had to stop and really be like, okay, it, what women can come to this, come to the table And it's, we really had to stop and be pur purposeful and more thoughtful about it because they weren't coming to mind as quickly for any of us women and men in the room doing the thinking about it.
Casey:
And so, and it, and it, so the, so we really had to make more of an effort to bring the, the women who had the knowledge and had the information forward to share that. And, you know, I think it's an interesting study and like thinking about why, why didn't we think about them because they're, you know, they're maybe cuz there were less initially. Um, that definitely has increased. But I think it's, I think it's more about being prominent, being out there being, you know, buddies with, um, different men that maybe have been in the industry longer, um, that kind of effect, you know, rolls on. And so we really had to be pur purposeful about it. And I think that women as women as leaders have a, and have a really hard time advocating for themselves, there's always a feeling of, I'm not good enough or I might lack that, or I might not bring enough to the table.
Casey:
And, you know, as a coach, I really, really wanna support women and getting beyond that and being enough and recognizing that you have something to say and share. And I think that's really the opportunity is for more women to really stand in their greatness and in what they offer and what they offer different differently. And I think that there's a lot of women being brave and starting businesses, um, and doing it. And we need to share that more. I think that there's more, I, I see more women, I think offering the future of travel and really like seeing, um, what type of needs businesses have. And I think it's interesting cause we know that what is it, like 80% of travel is booked by women. I mean, women are out there making the travel arrangements. They're, they're, they're the ones presenting it to their family, their partner, their friend group, whoever, and saying, this is what is interesting or these are our options. They're the ones thinking about it. And I think that there's um, there's value in being a woman, creating a business to, um, present those options to the person buying it. Um, so I think it's gonna be fascinating next few years because more women are there and, um, creating these businesses as you, as you know.
Christine:
Yeah. Um, yeah, two, so two things from that that I'd love to talk about. Um, one is the type of businesses that women are creating, as you mentioned. And two is that the kind of mindset, um, as women that we have to overcome to be in those places. And so maybe we'll start with that, but I know I was just interviewing another woman and we were talking about how if there's a job posting, you know, women tend to feel like they need to meet 100% of the criterion and then probably a little bit more before they would apply for a position. And men tend to look at about 50 to 60% of the criterion and then they feel comfortable applying for a position. And so I think, you know, that's just an interesting starting point of how we value, you know, what we have to offer and how willing we are to kind of put ourselves out there and, and really, um, celebrate our, our skills and our strengths and our contributions.
Christine:
And then the other thing might be that we also underestimate our value. So we might actually be a 100% qualified for that, but for some reason we're just not kind of giving ourselves the credit to apply. So when you're working with women, how do you help them overcome some of those things, which I think are also social, you know, is a social context in terms of women have been historically told to, you know, be softer, quiet or take up less space. You know, as we're looking at stereotypical roles of women, I think all of those things come into play as we try to take on these leadership roles. What, what did some of those conversations look like for you?
Casey:
I think it's often helping women think about, like, let's say there's a job description that talks about, um, uh, you know, creating processes to, um, like, I don't know, structure and operations for something. And somebody might read that and be like, well, I haven't worked in operations, right? You know, I know that I'm really great at like setting up processes for things, but I haven't, you know, I haven't done that in operations. Like having somebody step back and say, well, why are you, why are you great about, about processes? What have you done? Like, tell me more about what that would look like to, to create a process. What have you done in the past? What are you proud of? Think about the things that you've accomplished and, and think about how that might translate into this other role. And, and not stopping the word that, you know, operations from allowing you to, to move forward.
Casey:
So to think about, you know, to to focus on sort of what a compliment accomplishments have been in the past and then how that can be be, um, compared to, or sort of morphed into a possibility. So thinking about the, the options and the being creative about like, what does it mean to hold this, hold these strengths and how these strengths can be translated into other opportunities. So that's definitely something that I encourage people to do is to, to think about, think about it from a, what it might be, what the possibilities are versus, you know, focusing on what the negative is or what the, what can't happen. Um, and I think that that opens up a lot of doors and to think about how, how in the past you may have taken a skill and translated it into something else. So thinking about it in a, in a way, like not thinking about it from work, like how have you used a work skill maybe in your personal life? Cuz then, then somebody can start to think about like, oh yeah, I'm really good at, I'm really good at, um, creating, uh, projects at work and oh, I've had to do that for my, I don't, I don't know, for a nonprofit I volunteer at too or for my family life and oh yeah, I can take that skill and translate it. So I think that sometimes opens up people's minds and creates that sort of more, that positivity around it. Um, I forget the other part of your question now, <laugh>. Oh no,
Christine:
That's ok. No, it's fine. Um, I, I also just was thinking when you were talking about that I joke often I have a, a master's in event planning, um, in addition to my other, uh, degree in sustainable destination management. And I say like, I use that all the time as the like Chief Chaos Coordinator in my home. But it's true if you look at the, the spreadsheets I have and, and the amount of tasks I have to juggle and the documents that I have to shift back and forth, and I think because that falls under my, you know, my homemaker hat or my mom hat, it doesn't resonate with me that that, that I am constantly using skills that I had used in that part of my career because it, it just feels like an obligation to my family. But I do really manage quite a lot of things that I might overlook the fact that I'm continuing to use that.
Christine:
And I think women too, reentering the workforce after being home as a, as a homemaker or a mother, um, for a period of time might feel like they've lost a lot of their skills, but I feel like you're actually really honing, I mean, you know, networking and, and schedule management and all of these other different, uh, things that actually are a professional, you are using your professional skill in your home versus, you know, it not being relatable. And I think that's, for me, I know that was one thing that was really daunting is to, to say that I was still doing work even though it didn't fall under the context of a professional career.
Casey:
Right. You know, one thing that, um, I have seen in over the last year is a, a change in job descriptions where they'll actually put a line that says, don't let, don't stop yourself if you don't meet all of the criteria. Which I think is like a, it's like if, to me it feels like it's directly written from a diversity and inclusion perspective to really encourage people to, like, if you think that you have something to offer, yet you, you are afraid that you're not quite enough or have all the skills apply anyway. And I think that that's a, it's a nice way to sort of combat what we're just talking about to sort of open the door a little bit. Like, no, come in mm-hmm. <affirmative>, come in, do it. You know, we, we we want to know about you. And I, I hope, I don't know how that necessarily translates on the other side of like receiving, um, because we know, but in particular, if we just stick on gender, women or men, if it's like, unfortunately still, if there's a, a man's name at the top, their resume gets reviewed, you know, a man's name, my name, my name could be a man's name.
Casey:
But if somebody, you know, perceives it as a man, they just get reviewed differently then, then a woman and unfor, that's unfortunately there's data to back up that that happens. And that's unfortunate because I, there's still a lot of companies that are not creating systems to make that not part of a, like an interview review process.
Christine:
Yeah, no, and that's really interesting cuz early in my career I also went by Chris, and so the same thing. And I remember actually walking into a room and having people, you, you know, they're going, oh, I thought I was interviewing a man for this job, and mm-hmm. Like, no, I'm just me <laugh>, um, sorry to disappoint you, but it is interesting, even in that process, I hadn't thought about that for quite a long time. Um, but the way that people, uh, expect to engage with you based on who they think you are. Um, so the other thing that I had been asking, um, was a little bit about the, the types of businesses that women are creating now in the industry. And, um, I was really fortunate to take part in the first cohort of the women's work program, which I think you're probably familiar with. Um, Iris Eski is on the pod podcast before, and we were talking about, you know, what that, what that program entails. But seeing the businesses that women are creating in spaces like that, um, how different they are from what exists, how focused they are on social impact, gender equity, the culture that they're creating, um, just the energy that they have is, it feels very different than what exists. Um, what, what have you seen in that context and what do you think is behind, behind that?
Casey:
Yeah, that's really, that's, um, interesting. So, um, I love what Iris is doing, by the way, you know, I worked with her as she was sort of transitioning and creating this business, so I was very like, deeply engaged with her work and just so impressed with, um, that program. It's such a, it's such a great opportunity for emerging ENT entrepreneurs to really get the support that you need, you know, so, um, anybody listening to the podcast should check out women's work. But, um, I, you know, I, I, oh, I have it right at my fingertips. I just finished, what's the name of it? Um, when Women Lead, it's a new book by Julia Bernstein. It's, it's just so wonderful and it, it talks about, um, different ways that women lead differently. And so much of that book resonated with me. Um, and some of it was talking about, um, women and social impact and sort of the, the often, like, the empathy that women are bringing to the table as leaders.
Casey:
And it's often because of sort of how we're brought up and like how, how we are facing different, like barriers along the way. And so as we're creating a business, you bring that with you and you, you are thinking about the sort of the effect of what you're, what you're building. And so in, in, and you're thinking about the effect on, on multiple generations, um, uh, like, you know, if you have children or you have nieces or nephews or whatever the case may be, often you're thinking about this world that is affected by this business that, that you have started. And so there is more of that sort of social impact that seems to be woven in into businesses that women create. And if I think about the, like, women that have travel businesses, I feel like it's often, you know, there's more sort of like body positive.
Casey:
Um, like I think about Allison who runs Whoa Traveled, like she has, um, different trips that are, um, for people who, um, are larger and feel like they might be more challenged or might be perceived as having more challenges in their, in the trips. Um, and she has some great, um, trips that are for, um, specifically for black people and whether they, I think it's for some specific groups, she runs trips, which is great. Like she just has, she's targeting these different demographics in very specific ways that I think is really interesting. And there's also, um, companies that are, you know, very specifically working with local communities of where they're going and giving back to those communities and making sure that they're, you know, n not just let's say, um, working with a local artisan when they're there, but they're really purposefully like choosing a woman owned lodge or going to the local restaurants and just taking more di diligent time to do that.
Casey:
Now, may, will it create more, maybe challenges initially sort of getting started? I, I'm not sure I just read, um, focus Right, came out. Was it focus? I don't know if it was their article, um, but there's just an article that came out again about the challenges of travelers, um, being in the interest in sustainable travel and, and, um, that there's still this like, yes, travelers want sustainable options, but they don't wanna pay more for it. And so really, you know, there's this need and want for businesses to do that, but how do you run a business and make money and be a viable business at the same time? And it is a real challenge, um, to start a business and, and really feel like, how do I have margin? How do I, how do I do that? And I think there, um, I think it, what I, I have no data to back this up, but what I feel like I see is that women are starting with that. Just like, I'm gonna be thoughtful about this from the get go and not backtrack and implement it later on. And, um, it'll be interesting to see sort of in a few years how that plays out.
Christine:
Yeah, I mean, those are definitely conversations. I've had a lot both in women's work, but in general is how do you take that impact you wanna create and still have a business that is, you know, providing you an income as well as anyone else you hire. And when you in the mindset of creating impact, then sometimes you fall into this thought of, you know, it being philanthropic and then therefore it should only maybe break even or, you know, not become this scalable business. And like, I feel like that just adds another layer of kind of these things we have to break through in order to have successful businesses if we have that layer. And, you know, speaking really per personally, like that is something I've had to come back to over and over again, is that, you know, the impact I wanna create is only going to be possible by me scaling and growing my business.
Christine:
And so the business does have to be an important part of the equation. Um, and while I want to, like you said, have the impact from the foundation, um, I need to, to think about how those things can work together in order to have success be, you know, sustainable for, for me and for growth for the people that I want to support. So I think, um, I don't know if that is only pertaining to women. I feel like there's, um, men that own businesses that have similar structures. Um, but then the other thing that I think about is a lot of these businesses are started as these kind of passion projects or these things that are really personally vetted and, and really emotional emotionally for women in, in these smaller companies. And then how, how you do scale, because then you're bringing people into something that means a lot to you and you're having to find someone that really aligns with your values and wants to grow at the same way.
Christine:
And I wonder if there's, uh, different challenges to kind of creating these impact driven businesses because you are so personally invested. Does that make sense? Like, it's not just a business with the, the objective of making as much money as possible, however we can do that. Go. Like, there's this thing that's kind of importantly holding you back and I think, uh, allowing you to see that the endless growth actually isn't your goal, but some growth is your goal. How, how do you, how would you coach women through kind of looking at that, pulling that apart and figuring out how to, you know, implement growth into their business?
Casey:
Hmm. Yeah. Well, I think that, um, that women need to really embrace that it's okay to run a business and to make money off of a business and be purpose driven at the same time. And so to really be clear about that upfront, you know, and I, again, I think this is this, I think this is for men and women really, this is about, um, that passion-driven, purpose-driven businesses need to make money to, in order to be successful. And if you're clear from that at the get-go with your anybody that you hire, then it doesn't become a barrier later on. Somebody, you know, won't walk into the company and, you know, feel like, well, you know, why are we charging a 25% margin, um, and not understand it. But I think it's all, like, there's a big trend towards transparency. And I'd say just start there just like this is, this is the numbers and we have to, we have to build margin in so that we can continue to expand so that we can have money in the bank that will enable us to hire another person so that we can, you know, make this vision and goals that we have as an organization.
Casey:
And if part of the vision and the goals of the organization is some of this impacts social driven items, then then the team working for you and you will still feel like that's important. And part of the goals also could be about them as people. And I think that, um, you know, you really have to have this, um, have goals that are across the board that are about sort of revenue, that are about sort of the impact that you wanna have that are about the team and is then everyone is seen, but also the reality of owning a business and what it means is in place and also upfront. No one's surprised. And, you know, it's, uh, it's the reality of owning a business. So, um, that's what I would advise.
Christine:
Yeah. Um, I wanted to go back to, uh, you know, we were both talking about early in our career and really seeing that we were surrounded by, um, male leaders, masculine energy as leaders mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, uh, talk a little bit about what it means to be a woman as who is a feminine leader. Cause I think, you know, we both were in a space where if we put ourself into those positions, we would see that we would be emulating that masculine energy. And I think, uh, that is also sometimes something that gets in the way of women actually being very successful leaders is because they're kind of disregarding that part of themselves, or they're trying to step into a leadership role as someone who they are not. Um, and what can that mean for actually bringing kind of that fuller version of yourself into those leadership roles?
Casey:
Right. Enough, so much to say about that. Um, I have a story that, um, comes to mind that I'll probably write about one day, um, which is, it's just short. But I, one I was early on at the A T T A, um, there was six other sort of men that, so it was me and six men that were sort of part of the leadership group. And I have a very vivid memory <laugh> of, we were in Switzerland, this was the first summit that we had in Switzerland. So this was about 10 years ago. And we were sitting around a table talking, and one by one they were telling fight stories about how they like were in fights when they were kids or fights in college or whatever. <laugh>. I was just sitting there like, I have nothing to share. This is like, I never f punched anybody.
Casey:
Like I have no aggressive fight story to share. Just sort of observing kind of, you know, in retrospect, like not feeling included because I had no stories to share. This was not me, this was not, but, but if you think about that, like stories about like aggression and like protection and it, and so I bring it up because it's almost like that little bit of that, uh, that you, you sort of like when you think about male leadership like that, um, battle the fight. And, um, I do think I've really have gone on a journey of really, especially over the last probably five, six years, really purposefully learning to not show up in a way that is more sort of typical male leadership. And really for me it's more about being more vulnerable and sharing more vulnerable stories that, um, sort of show that you're a whole person.
Casey:
Um, over the last few years at the A T T A, you know, I, I had cancer in 2019 and it's something that like I shared with the team, I didn't sort of hold it back, um, because it was a big thing in my life. Like I, I had to go through that and it's, I struggled. And then over covid, I had a lot of mental health challenges with my children and it was really hard. And I would share that with the team because I knew the team was going through different things of their own. So I was trying to show up as a whole person, a vulnerable whole person, so that they could also, um, and feel comfortable doing that. And so they knew I had empathy for them. Right. And I think for me, uh, you know, there's more, women tend to show up more with more curiosity.
Casey:
Um, we tend to be more collaborative. Um, I'm definitely a collaborative leader and I will come in and I will make decisions, but I wanna hear other people's perspectives in order to inform going forward because I don't believe that I have all the answers. And, um, and yes, I may need to make a decision and it might not be what someone want somebody else wants or thinks, um, but at least they feel heard. They know that I've listened to them. Um, so I think for me, those are the types of, like, I, I think that's really where leadership is going anyway. And I think it embodies a lot of what women, um, naturally will bring more to the table men do too. So this is, again, like men, there's many men that have some of these character characteristics and or they're developing them or realizing it's okay to have them mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I just think that they're so important, um, to the future of, of leadership. And I think that that opens up, um, so many possibilities for women because I think women, um, are great leaders and, um, if more of us are leading companies and or at the table, it's, it's gonna be positive for the future of the planet.
Christine:
Yeah. No, and I think it's so important to, to realize too, like you said, that we're speaking about both men and women as leaders and, and like having a balance of masculine energy and feminine energy is important for, for everyone because it does allow you to be, you know, fully yourself and engaged as a human at work. I've also had a few conversations around, you know, there's been this notion for a long time that you're an employee at work and a human outside of work. And what we're really looking for is that people should, I should be able to be their, their full person where they are. And I, as you were speaking too, I was even thinking about, you know, some, uh, instances where I felt like, uh, even my husband could not show up as a father at work, right? Very much like as a, we cannot be often a mother at work.
Christine:
Like when you're at work, that's the priority and that's where a lot of conflict comes in. But I see that there as well. Um, and then also reminded when I was just leading a tour, um, in Alaska and we were kind of reflecting on the experience and one of the women said to me, you know, I had this realization about you as a leader, and that I expected you to be a leader who told me what I should do and how I should do it. And I, what I realized is that you're a leader who lets me learn what I can do and how I can do it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, um, for me I was like, wow, that's such a, a beautiful compliment because that's what I wanna create. But I think that's a really important, you know, shift and a really important contrast to look at because I think then that really allows the people you're working with to be their most valuable, um, you know, contribute in the most valuable way. Because if you put this lid on them, well, they're just gonna stay there. But if you just say like, here's the space for you to grow in, I think you're gonna have so much more, um, value and growth from that person.
Casey:
Right. Yeah. I totally believe in that. That has been so important to me over the years is to really like, see the people who I work with, see what they bring to the table, what, what help them, help them see themselves too, and to believe in themselves. And also for me, has been like to, for me to be accountable to our conversations, right? Like, to support them or to, to follow through on the things that I say that I'll do that will help them move forward or to remove barriers. And I think as a leader, it's incredibly important to bring that to the table. You, you, you have to take action on what you say. You can't just talk about things. You can't just blah, blah blah. Like, you need to do what you say you're going to do or communicate about it. And I think those are really important threads that I've seen get lost or really challenge, challenge people in companies.
Casey:
And I think if, to me that's incredibly important to be a good communicator and a good listener and to take action. And I think women do that. And I wanna just comment on your, what you said about your husband. Um, I, you know, men have a really hard, you know, it's, it's really hard to show up as a parent for men even, you know, because it's, their, their challenge is that, um, it's even less like expected of them to show up as a whole person in that way. And how devastating is that? You know? So there's whole, you know, whole other side of things. Yes. Women, maybe we don't get as many opportunities. We get sort of, our career gets challenged more because we tend to take on more of the care kit taking responsibilities, but men emotionally and sort of where, where they show up, I think they have a harder time showing up as, as parents. And so there's, you know, there's challenges all around from that side
Christine:
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. And I, I hope that as we continue to kind of break down that issue from the perspective of a woman's experience, that maybe it will also kind of lead into it being something more universal that, you know, really understanding that, you know, we, we ha we'll have more successful and thriving businesses if we're addressing those needs for all of our, uh, you know, all of the people that work within a, in a business. And, uh, one of the things that I always kind of dreamed of as I was growing my business was the idea of being able to offer like a C E O or a C F O role as a part-time role or as a job share role, so that you can look at, cuz I, I had many, you know, women when I was home for a few years with my daughters who, who had left those roles and they, they just knew they could never go back to them if they wanted to prioritize their time with their children. And I was thinking how they are losing such a valuable employee because they want them there 40 to 60 hours a week instead of, you know, 20 to 30 hours a week. And, um, just thinking like some of those things, it will be interesting to see if, if any of those shifts happen. I know they're happening in some places, but if that can become more of a, you know, a norm and less of a, an outlier in terms of even how we're looking at staffing and, and bringing, you know, people into the workspace.
Casey:
Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree. I mean there's, I know there's some companies that are doing that sort of, you know, sort of sourcing of people who then can offer those types of like fractional roles. And I, I think, I think we're going through an evolution, you know, now we're sort of, there's so much struggle about like hybrid work and remote work and, you know, how where is that all gonna shake out? Um, you know, that's gonna, that's sort of like the big step in flexibility and sort of what's what's next. Um, and I think what you said is probably is coming to,
Christine:
Yeah. Well I would love for us to spend a little bit more time talking about, um, gender equity and tourism and specifically kind of looking at how sustainability and gender equity are interwoven. I know that's something that you're also really passionate about and trying to create an understanding around the, how those two things work together. Um, can you share a little bit about what you have seen, you know, in your role at A T T A, but just in general in the industry about the impact that is created when you're investing in women, um, in the supply chain through the tourism?
Casey:
Yeah, I mean really just starting, starting locally, um, is really what, um, I think has the, the most impact is because, you know, there is clear evidence that women who own businesses, um, especially, you know, just thinking about like a smaller, like a restaurant or an artisan shop, that the, the money that is um, is created there is more naturally than reinvested in that that community is invested in the children, is invested in local, um, conservation efforts. It's, it's more, there's, there's evidence that the women are more likely to sort of reinvest it where they are. So, you know, sort of starting there and purposefully, um, creating opportunities where maybe you're hiring women guides or you're looking for that restaurant that's owned by a woman or, you know, whatever the case may be, um, that's going to have such a, an amazing impact and that, you know, then sort of like trickling that up to, you know, depending on where you are and sort of in the, the travel supply chain.
Casey:
Um, but, you know, hiring, if you're hiring a guide to go to a local lo local place or you're hiring women within your organization, um, you can have that sort of like overall effect. But when you think about sustainability and if you think about, you know, carrying on in into the future, it's really just thinking about that, that the community that you're going to the, the place. I think if that can be the focus of, of the work and thinking about, um, you know, again, it's this point of like, is it really gonna be more expensive to say book at a woman-owned hotel versus a male owned hotel? Probably not. So book with a woman owned ho hotel, you're gonna, you're, there's gonna be a difference made there and not to not book at the male owned hotel. Like, I don't want, like if somebody listening to this think that that's not the case, but if you like, think about the mix, right?
Casey:
And if you think about putting more purposeful effort into supporting more women-owned businesses, that is going to, to help more in the long run cuz it's going to, it's going to raise up more women in those destinations. So for me that's the, that's the big focus. And also if there are, you know, so many tourism businesses put educational effort into educating their travelers about the places that they're going to, um, or supporting, um, local conservation efforts or, you know, local put, you know, putting donating money to sort of nonprofits or organizations. Again, if that can be thoughtfully done or educated as opportunities for travelers who want to, um, perhaps make a difference in the place that they've just been, um, that can have a lot of like ongoing impact because it's something that then gets not just sort of educated or transmitted to those travelers, but it's that, um, amplifying effect of like the knowledge that they have and then who do they share it with? Um, or the ongoing, say they might, let's say travel to Baja Mexico and they, you know, see an organization that really resonates with them. They may support that organization for the next five years or they might continue to go back there, maybe not with your, your tour company, but they may go back there on their own or develop a relationship with someone there and who knows what kind of sort of develops from that. So for me it's really like the biggest sort of effect is that sort of local, local support mm-hmm.
Christine:
<affirmative>. And I think too, you know, you mentioned that educational aspect of it and, and even, you know, if for some reason in an area you don't find a women owned hotel to support, you know, you've done your research and there isn't something there, then maybe part of that, uh, conversation you're having with your travelers might be, you know, we really tried to support women owned businesses in this area and didn't find that the infrastructure was in place for that to happen. So here's some of the cultural barriers that women have to owning businesses in the area. And so then I think, you know, uh, you know, as travelers, those are things that we don't often think about. We might think about it in our own lives, in our own daily lives, but as we're traveling, sometimes that stuff can fall off. Um, it won't be something we're as present to.
Christine:
And for me, I think much like you were saying, where people might return to an area or support a cause that they become connected to that, uh, awareness for them might allow them to be a person that becomes engaged in the problem solving of right. Of that issue in an area as well. And I think we're sometimes just hesitant to talk about those issues in the context of travel or with our travelers because tourism has so often been painted as a leisure activity where you can dismiss the hard conversations. And I think, um, also a shift that we're seeing, and especially that I'm seeing in the context of women-owned businesses, is that we're saying those conversations are a part of your travel experience.
Casey:
Yeah. Well, and I think they make them richer, right? You almost like when you're in a destination, you're looking a little deeper, right? It's not so surface level mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I think that that has a more of a, a deeper emotional impact. And I, you know, when we were talking about the different like, um, businesses that sort of women are creating, I think that there's more of these very, um, purposeful and mindful businesses that are, there's more thought going into it. And you're in a place and it's not only being more thoughtful about the people around you, but also your own experience in the moment. And what are you, what are you feeling and thinking and, and needing and wanting to carry away? Um, I think that there's a lot of, um, a lot of, um, sort of mental health. Um, it's not just like, it's like mental health care, right?
Casey:
And it's, or it's like, um, purposeful soul <laugh> speaking of your podcast. It's like, it's, it's, it's thoughtfulness for your spirit, right? That really, I think is needed. People need need that, and they're traveling not just maybe for activating their bodies or, um, you know, to on a, like an adventure or on a bike trip or for like fun. But I think that there's this, this care, this care of your spirit that is needed and it's internal, but it's also who you're connecting with, what community you're in when you do that. I think there's a lot to that. And if you can be brave enough to have a hard, harder conversations or more thoughtful conversations, then it benefits everyone even though it might be hard.
Christine:
Yeah. And I feel like, um, so I mean, and again, this is the experience I have of conversations, but so many women I know are cultivating that space because that hasn't been the thing that's been most impactful and resonant for them. And they want much, like, you know, I say this all the time, I just want my travelers to have a moment of that kind of deep, meaningful, intentional connection and also like personal awareness that happens. Just there's these magical moments and that's what I'm, I want them to have and to share and to experience. And I, I think women are really good at, at creating the space for that to happen. And I, I think, and then also, like you said, kind of nurturing what has to happen after you have that, because that powerful experience on its own is powerful, but I think it, we inherently will compartmentalize that experience if it was too, too much or we won't know how to integrate it. And so then creating that, that place for conversation afterward after we travel to, to like have a community to reflect upon the experience is important. And I think a lot of of businesses are really focusing on that aspect as well.
Casey:
Right. Yeah, that's true.
Christine:
Um, well, before we end the conversation, I did wanna talk a little bit more about your business that you launched and coaching. And before we got on this call, we were talking about, you know, I mentioned some of the really valuable experience I've had being coached and mentored and how, you know, compared to even my conver my, um, education from my bachelor's and my master's, which were great, not as valuable to who I am in my business right now. And that I think that coaching is tremendously valuable. And to be able to tap into your years of expertise and all of the leadership roles that you've had and be able to learn from you, I think it's really important. Um, how, how do you think that the space of coaching, um, is really going to support growth of women in this industry?
Casey:
Well, what I really hope is, you know, and I've seen this with a couple of people that I've coached, is, is that my focus is to help people really embrace who they are as leaders and to really sort of bring that, to make their business successful and to make the people who work for them, um, as successful as they are. And so it's really being a great leader, but what I've found is that, um, there's been this question of, well, but is it like life coaching? And I'm like, well, it's <laugh>. The reality is you're a whole person, right? So it often like starts with like, there's some things to kind of dig through and, and, and, and figure out and to, um, to discover and explore and, and solve and then bring that into your leadership. And so I really think that if, um, people, an example, if people can embrace coaching and see that as this, this is a, this is a confidential, you know, conversation.
Casey:
This is like, this is my person who I can just be open with, who I can share my fears and my ideas and there's no judgment and they can hold me accountable. But also it's okay if I don't come through. Like, there's something very, very precious about that. And I've had coaches too. And you know, one of the things that I really learned from one of my coaches was it really enabled me to bridge that, like my personal, um, interest in writing and, and poetry and my leadership work. And one of the things that she said to me is, why do they have to be separate? And I was really thinking about them as separate things. And she's like, why, why do you separate those in your mind? Those can be together. And it just opened up a whole new world for me. And there's moments like that I think in coaching where you just, you something switches and it changes your life.
Casey:
Like it's, it's so, it's a different person's perspective and holding that sort of brave space, um, for you is, um, I, I think I've, I've had several coaches and it just really has always made such an impact on, on me and coaching people at the organizations that I've worked for. There's also just been these moments of like helping them become the type of leader that, that they wanna be and to helping them like learn how to be a people manager. And there's different levels of like what people need. But it all sort of starts with like feeling grounded in who you are and what you have to offer. And so, um, I'm excited to be able to bring my experience to the table, um, for people, but really to, um, be there to listen and to help people be creative and curious about themselves.
Christine:
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, I just had a conversation last week with, uh, a woman and we were talking about how your entrepreneur journey is really your personal growth journey. And, you know, kind of like you said, you're, you're, you're going to actually have to start with who you are to, to really to grow as a, as a leader. And I even am thinking in my own experience, I'm redoing a SWOT analysis and some, you know, looking at my target market. And as I look at it now, I'm seeing, I'm like, I really need to go back to some mindset work first. Cuz I'm finding that I actually can't do this because I have this own emotional barrier with my resistance to X, Y, Z, but I've done it enough now that I can see that's why I'm not completing something. And I, I think, you know, we have been very, uh, we've been instructed that these things are often separate, but we really do need to understand how we are a part of our businesses and how that is going to create our own barriers to success.
Christine:
Because if we have our, you know, an issue with one thing as a person, we're going to take that right with us into our business. And, and I think that is, like you mentioned something that in the context of coaching is so powerful that you wouldn't maybe get in business school, although it's been years since I've been there. So I don't know, maybe they're wise and they're integrating some of this into it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but, you know, really starting with you and then going into, you know, your business, I think it's really important to, to have all of these aspects and, and a coach can see that because they're spending so much time with you, really knowing who you are, what your motivations are, what you are looking to create, and then some of this stuff starts to kind of, uh, show itself and then you can move through it in order to advance.
Casey:
Yeah, I totally agree.
Christine:
Um, well Casey, thank you so much for this conversation. Um, before we end our call, I just have a few rapid fire questions, um, and then we will wrap up. I know the high pressure rapid fire, they're rapid fire ish, so you don't have to worry if you don't have a succinct answer. Um, but the first question, and we've talked a little bit about this, but what are you reading right now?
Casey:
Oh, oh, I <laugh>. I just, let's see, what am I reading? I just finished lessons in Chemistry. Such a good book. Um, kind of a, the, uh, main character is such a badass woman, so I highly recommend it. Um, my gosh, I read so many books and I don't know off the top of my head what I'm reading,
Christine:
<laugh>.
Casey:
Ah, I just finished, um, what else did I just read? Well, I'll just say, I just finished that. I'm, I'm gonna, I'm looking through my like, stack of books to find my next one, so
Christine:
Yeah, that's great. You're in transition. I have piles of books everywhere and I'm always listening to one reading one in like a book form and reading one in Kindle form. Um, so I, I I fill your dilemma there.
Casey:
Oh, you know what? I am reading one. What's the name of it? Um, it's called What's Up With White Women. So it's like, um, a book about d e i and I'm reading it with a friend and so we're reading sets of chapters together and, um, talking about that book, um, along the way. So that's sort of my, I usually have like a nonfiction one going and then a fiction one going at the same time.
Christine:
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, what is always in your suitcase or backpack when you travel?
Casey:
Ooh, um, melatonin <laugh>
Christine:
Very important
Casey:
And a Starbucks via, um, so that I can doctor up a coffee to just be exactly what I need it to be. Um, so I usually have like a little kit, um, and really comfy socks that like, are only for like, where I'm like cuddling up and a book. Those are some things I always bring. Yeah. And one form, whether it's on my phone or like a physical book.
Christine:
I love that you mentioned the kind of like sleep and awake, because as a traveler, these are the two things that when you're a professional, you really have to find the balance. And I remember the first time I traveled with a whole group of, um, people that were, you know, CEOs of travel companies and watching their rituals for like a transatlantic flight. I feel like I learned the most about anything I needed to know in the industry was from those moments of being like, here's how you like, manage this and can still function when you land wherever you have to land and, and be who you are next. <laugh>.
Casey:
Yeah, it's like an ibuprofen Starbucks via melatonin, sort of blend <laugh>.
Christine:
Yeah. Um, to Sojourn is to travel somewhere as if you live there for a short while. Where is a place that you would still love to sojourn?
Casey:
Hmm. I really wanna go to Columbia. That is a dream of mine to, to go there. I was just talking to my husband about that. I've always wanted to inhabit. So Columbia. Yeah.
Christine:
Uh, what do you eat that immediately connects to a place that you've been
Casey:
Hmm, hmm. Sometimes if I have really good, really good like feta and tomatoes and like calamata olives and like the right olive oil, it brings me back to Turkey for some, like, because the food when I was in Turkey many years ago was so amazing. Like it so delicious. And so sometimes if it's just fresh enough and crisp enough and perfect, then I think about being there.
Christine:
Who was the person that inspired or encouraged you to set out and explore the world?
Casey:
I guess probably my mom. Um, because after my parents divorced, she, uh, got certified to scuba dive and then she started, um, diving in different sort of Caribbean locations and, um, because her, her parents were the ones, my grandparents who also traveled. So I would say that sort of side of my family sort of inspired more of the, the travel bug in me.
Christine:
If you could take an adventure with one person, fictional or real alive or past, who would it be?
Casey:
Um, oh, I don't know. Oh man. The real person, you know. Um, this is gonna, it would be my daughter right now. I really, I mean, I just, my daughter is almost 17 and it would be really fun for me. She loves food. Um, she really wants to go to Greece and I know it's like I probably should mention some celebrity or somebody important, but I'm not doing shoulds. Dawn, my daughter came to mind, of course, like I thought about Michelle Obama and like, then I thought about Amelia Earhart. So those are like some other ones that came to mind, but I'm gonna say my daughter.
Christine:
Yeah. I just had this realization. My oldest daughter just turned 13 and I was, she's doing dance competitions right now, but we get to spend long weekends together in a hotel and we go out to eat and we have these moments. And I just, the other, a couple weekends ago I was like, you know, I I love being with you. I love spending this time with you. And we went to New York and we had the greatest time. And I feel like it's really cool to have a moment where that actually is the person you wanna spend time with. I think that's important. And I'm getting ready to travel with my three girls for a year. So that's, that's who I will be adventuring with. Maybe, maybe you and your daughter can join us at some point, but I think that's really important to travel with your children. It's, it's really memorable for them.
Casey:
And I should mention my son would be great to travel with too. <laugh> also, but my daughter's a little older and more like talking about wanting to do travel. So just in case he ever listens to this podcast, I'm not leaving you out, Theo, you're, you, you have a different travel bug that, yeah. Anyway.
Christine:
Yeah. That would be like my little girl. And she went through the whole England travel guide in preparation for this trip and I said, where do, where do you wanna do in England? What do you, what do you wanna do? And she's like, I found this bagel shop in London and that's what I wanna do. I'm like, <laugh>. Okay. That's crazy. So she has a, a, a different concept of travel as well. Uh, the last one is, uh, so travel is for, um, elevating the voices of women in this industry. Who is one woman that you admire and would love to recognize in this space?
Casey:
Hmm. You know, um, Mo Carrick, um, has been an important woman in my life. Um, I've known her when I was at ZE and obviously all through the adventure, travel trade Association. I think she is, uh, she's been an amazing mentor to me and, um, I've learned so much from her as a leader and, uh, I, yeah, I think she's, uh, really special and she's really educated a lot of, a lot of women in the space and made a big difference.
Christine:
Yeah, interestingly, she's one of those very first two people that I refer to in my mental mind as the women I'm looking up to, and it's from my first a t t A conference experience. So I love that we have that, uh, connection. So thank you for bringing her into the space. Um, so glad that we were able to have this conversation, um, and talk about all these things that you're so passionate about. Thank you for being here.
Casey:
Yeah, thank you so much.
Christine:
Thanks.
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