Episode 147 - Season 1 Rewind: Gabi Stowell, Adventure Travel Trade Association
In this Season 1 Rewind Episode, we revisit Christine’s interview with the incomparable Gabi Stowell of the Adventure Travel Trade Association.
The future of travel is intentional.
In this special replay episode, we revisit Season 1: Travel Rising’s most popular episode. And in fact, it’s the very first episode of the Soul of Travel Podcast!
Christine hosts a soulful conversation with Gabriella Stowell, current Vice President of Regional Development at the Adventure Travel Trade Association (ATTA), the largest global network of adventure travel leaders.
Gabi has always loved nature, from early in her childhood and studying ecology to her current endeavors in travel. Born in Brazil, Gabriella now lives in the U.S. She is known for her ability to motivate and unite teams to accomplish a common goal, manage stakeholder expectations, and bring different people together to accomplish shared goals.
Gabi's passion for the intersection of travel, adventure, cultural interaction, and nature's beauty will prepare you to start planning your own adventure! To learn more about the Adventure Travel Trade Association (or about becoming a member!), you can visit their website.
The ATTA is a privately held, for-profit industry trade group that serves to network, educate, professionalize and promote the adventure travel industry. They find their success by serving its members and advancing responsible, sustainable adventure travel practices.
Traveling and Sharing Nature
When Gabi was 19 years old (and when the internet wasn’t so common), she spent time immersed in nature for two years and learning about the local culture. When she returned to Brazil, she worked in a variety of companies including an eco-lodge while she got to know her country more deeply. This passion for deeply understanding the culture and nature of a place has never left Gabi, and continues to drive her role in ATTA today.
Immersive Community-Based Travel Brings Connection and Change
Activity, nature, and culture are three necessary components of adventure travel, according to the Adventure Travel Trade Association. Gabi is proud to share that 60-65% of the economic influence of tourism made with their approach stays within the country.
“In the tourism industry, we’re called ‘guests’ for a reason..and we need to think about what our impact is, and make our impact positive.”
Gabi and Christine discuss the impacts of overtourism and the alternative ways in which nature and culturally responsive, and sustainably-based tourism, can actually make a regenerative impact on a destination. She shares that slow travel, in smaller groups visiting boutique hotels and community-based experiences, not only offers a special and unique experience but also makes a positive ripple-effect impact on a destination.
“In the tourism industry, we’re called ‘guests’ for a reason. We need to think about what our impact is, and make our impact positive.”
Soul of Travel Episode 147 At a Glance
In this conversation, Christine and Gabi discuss:
The importance of soaking in the culture of the places where we travel
The power of choosing small, local properties and restaurants
The future of travel
Re-orienting the travel industry toward women
Changing the face of the travel industry with intention and care
Join Christine now for this soulful conversation with Gabriella Stowell.
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Related UN Sustainable Development Goals
Sustainable Development Goal #5: Achieve gender equality and empower all women and girls.
Sustainable Development Goal #6: Ensure availability and sustainable management of water and sanitation for all.
Sustainable Development Goal #9: Build resilient infrastructure, promote inclusive and sustainable industrialization and foster innovation.
Sustainable Development Goal #10: Reduce inequality within and among countries.
Sustainable Development Goal #11 Make cities and human settlements inclusive, safe, resilient and sustainable.
Sustainable Development Goal #12: Ensure sustainable consumption and production patterns.
Resources & Links Mentioned in the Episode
Check out the Adventure Travel Trade Association.
Connect with Gabi on Instagram, Facebook, or LinkedIn.
About the Soul Of Travel Podcast
Soul of Travel honors the passion and dedication of people making a positive impact in the tourism industry. In each episode, you’ll hear the stories of women who are industry professionals, seasoned travelers, and community leaders. Our expert guests represent social impact organizations, adventure-based community organizations, travel photography and videography, and entrepreneurs who know that travel is an opportunity for personal awareness and a vehicle for global change.
Join us to become a more educated and intentional traveler as you learn about new destinations, sustainable and regenerative travel, and community-based tourism. Industry professionals and those curious about a career in travel will also find value and purpose in our conversations.
We are thought leaders, action-takers, and heart-centered change-makers who inspire and create community. Join host Christine Winebrenner Irick for these soulful conversations with our global community of travelers exploring the heart, the mind, and the globe.
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Credits. Christine Winebrenner Irick (Host, creator, editor). Gabriella Stowell (Guest). Original music by Clark Adams. Editing, production, and content writing by Carly Oduardo.
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WE WON A BESSIE AWARD! The Bessie Awards recognize the achievements of women and gender-diverse people making an impact in the travel industry. To view the complete list of 2022’s winners, visit bessieawards.org.
Soul of Travel Episode 147 Transcript
Women’s travel, transformational travel, sustainable travel, women leaders in travel, social entrepreneurship
Christine: Welcome to the Soul of Travel podcast. I'm your host, Christine Wine Runner Irick. We are wrapping up season four of the Soul of Travel Podcast. In the meantime, we want to celebrate our soul of travel community and share some of the most listened to episodes of the past four seasons. In these best of replays, you'll hear from the guests who were interviewed on the most popular episodes from each of the past seasons. They'll give us a quick update on where they are now and share some of their favorite soul of travel moments. It is so great to be able to reflect back and reconnect with these guests. If you missed their episodes, I know you'll love hearing from them, and if you already listened in the past, I think you're going to love hearing their updates and listening again to learn new insights from these women creating a positive impact in travel. I cannot wait to be back with all new episodes in November. Until then, enjoy this soulful replay.
Gabi: Hi there. This is Gabi Stowell, the Vice President for Regional Development at the Adventure Travel Trade Association, A T T A. And wow. I'm humble and honored to learn that my episode was one of the most listened ones in the first season of the Soul of Travel podcast. It's very honorary and humbly for me to have that news. I had just a blast talking to Christine about sustainable travel, some of my favorite places that I visited and about women in tourism, and I just enjoyed all the other episodes too that she did after mine and learned so much from such beautiful, incredible women out there. I just am really honored to be part of this because it's such a great, great space for learning and sharing and encouraging. I got really, really motivated by listening to other women and their leadership around the travel industry.
When I did my podcast, I was the Latin America director. Now I have a global role for A T T A and I'm very excited to say that the industry is growing after pandemic. More people are more aware of sustainability and our impact in the world. The community is really highly about gathering resources, sharing, collaborating, to work for a better world. We still continue to do tons of events all over the world. There is a lot of research in our website. We have a free community membership that you can join and just receive our newsletter and have access to some of these educational programs we have. If you're interested, if you work in the travel industry, join a TT A by visiting our website, www@adventuretravel.bz, and it's free. And let's continue the dialogue for a better word through tourism. I'm very excited. Thank you so much. Again, humble and honored. Enjoy, and let's keep going. The good work. Thank you Christine and your team for everything you do, and thank you again. Really appreciate. Ciao.
Christine: I am so excited to be welcoming you to the first episode of Soul of Travel. Today I am speaking with Gabriela Stoll from the Adventure Travel Trade Association. She's a lifelong nature lover and supporter of sustainable tourism practices. Gabby was born in Sao Paulo, Brazil. She fell in love with nature and the outdoors at an early age. At 12, she joined an N G O that protected and studied the ecology of the forest land in southeastern Brazil. This love led her to study ecology, and later she went on to receive her M B A to continue to support businesses in the tourism sector. She has been a tourism guide, rafting guide, worked in an eco resort where she created its adventure department and was responsible for guest activities and the sustainability program. Today she works at the Adventure Travel Trade Association as its regional manager for Latin America, working closely with members and partners in countries across Latin America for all of their strategic adventure tourism needs.
During our conversation, we take a look at community-based tourism and how fostering connections with local people and small businesses when we travel can not only enhance your travel experience, but can create a positive economic impact for the destination. We also discuss being intentional when we travel and how that intention shifts the way we interact, as well as being mindful that we are guests in a destination and should honor that privilege. Gabby and I also dive into the role of women in the tourism industry at all levels of the supply chain and how there is room for a larger presence of women as well as a space to share their personal experiences and challenges they have faced. We also look at how tourism in rural communities, sharing of the crafts of artisans and connecting to women as we travel can create economic opportunity for women and how that can help to begin to shift gender roles and empower women to step into leadership in their communities. For more information about the Adventure Travel Trade Association, please visit www.adventuretravel.biz. Welcome to the Soul of Travel. Enjoy my conversation with Gabby Stoll. So I'm going to give you a chance to just introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about who you work for and what you do, and then also just a little bit of your background in the tourism industry.
Gabi: Okay. So yes, I'm Gabi. I am Brazilian, so if you hear an accent, that's why. So I grew up there. I did my whole life until I was like 30 and I moved here to the us so it's me. I was like 35, 36 when I moved here. So yeah, I'm graduated in ecology. So I always loved nature growing up. Grew up in Sao Paulo state in Brazil, did a lot of hikes in a local forest. Founded a small N G O when I was like 12 years old or something with a group of friends, and I always loved to take people to nature. And so then it was a natural thing to do a college as a graduation. And I did that my first year in HLA Nassp University. And then I quit for two years to do an internship in Hyman Lodge, which is in the Panton now.
And I was 19 years old, and that was back in the day where internet wasn't so common. So I was literally isolated for two years. No phone, no internet. By the end there was internet, but as the dial super slow and didn't work very well. It was a great experience, but I lived immersed in nature for two years, learned a lot about the local culture with the local cowboys, and that changed my life forever. That's how I started with tourism. So after I came back to the university, finished it and then would come on vacation to work as a freelance guide. And there we did hiking, a lot of safaris, canoe, everything in nature in pen is an amazing ecosystem. If you don't know, you should go visit. So I did a lot of back and forth until I graduated. Then I worked in Brahas in a rafting company, so I never left tourism and I moved along Brazil, my way of learning about different ecosystems and working different types of companies.
So I worked in Eco Lodge, so I moved around a lot and got to know my country a little bit and learned a lot about tourism. So yeah, never stopped. So it's been more than 20 years. I'm 38 years old now, so I was 19 when I started. So it's been a while. And so now I'm the Latin American and Caribbean director for the Venture Travel Trade Association, which is a global organization that really our mission is really to help this niche of tourism to develop anything nature and culture related. So we define adventure as having at least two of three elements, activity, nature and culture. So most of it is soft. Most of the activities are like bike and hike and literally getting small groups and going to really experience some destination or some culture. So our mission is really to help this niche grow because we truly believe in it. We really have made some economical impact studies where it show that we've adventure travel, 65 to 67% of the revenue brought by the tourists stays in the destination while the mass more traditional tourism only 10, 11% stays. So we really believe that this is a great type of tourism. And for that we do research education, we put on events for the industry for the whole globe. So it's more than a hundred countries representing the A T T A. And I'm the Latin American, the Caribbean. So I have the fun party, good music region. Yes,
Christine: That's one of my very favorite places to travel as well. So I understand that love. I love what you were saying about the amount of revenue that stays in the country and in the destination when you travel this way. For me, that's really important. When I launched Lotus Sojourns, that is one of the values that I really wanted to use tourism as an avenue to invest in the areas that I'm traveling to. Can you speak a little bit more for people who maybe aren't familiar with how their money is, how it is utilized in the economy in a more mass tourism sense versus in this more responsible model?
Gabi: Totally. And I love that we start to think about that. The tourists were always like, I deserve this vacation. And we do. But also it comes with a lot of responsibilities in the tourism industry. We are called guests for a reason. You are a guest when you visit a destination, when you go through a village. And we need to think about what our impact is and hopefully make our impact positive by really taking care and living more than we took right when we visited. Because there is impact when we visit, we use more water, we dump trash, there is all these veins, and then over terms is a whole other thing where we change the dynamics of how a small village can feel. So it's good that we're starting to think like that, and I am really glad. So the really difference I think is one with the adventure travel eco, and by the way, the names don't really matter.
It's just keep in mind we're talking about nature and culture-based tourism, which it could be called ecotourism, community-based tourism, rural. There are many names, and we just say vacation right when we travel. So it doesn't really don't get hook up on the name, but just know what I'm talking about is the more small groups nature related culture where the experience really matters. So what I said with small groups is the big difference too. So usually we go to off the beaten path destinations in smaller groups with a guide that is taking us to experience something that's a big difference from the big buses, the big cruise trips, the big, big, big groups where you're just in a hurry and you take a picture and you leave. So it's a more deeper connection and a more slow pace, but smaller groups and then you stay usually in more our home stays or boutique hotels, smallers because you want that experience.
So that's the big difference. So the money usually stays more in the community, helps a lot generate more jobs. We also could prove that and generates a little bit more jobs than the traditional because of that, you're like having a cooking class in the village, you're helping the community there, you then having or a handcraft class and then you're buying the handcraft or you're visiting a cough production, whatever. So the money usually stays more in the destination set of leaving your country and going to big corporations abroad and that sometimes don't even pay taxes in your country, all that. So because you usually work with local guides, smaller boutique companies, the money usually stays more and you go to places and buy local food, local stuff. So that's pretty much the basic.
Christine: Yeah, I think that's such an interesting thing to bring up because a lot of people when they hear about, and I kind of use the word conscious or intentional travel to kind of encapsulate all of the different things that people think of, but easy steps that I always say are looking like you said, for a smaller hotel, a local hotel, because it is staying in that economy. A lot of times I think people just aren't aware that if they're staying at a Hilton or Marriott or a larger chain hotel, the money just doesn't sit in the country and the economy the same way. It's leaving back to wherever the parent company is from. So that really helps. And visiting local restaurants, not only are you supporting them, but then like you said, you're really authentically connecting to the culture by enjoying a traditional meal in a traditional style. And for me, I know when I first started traveling a little bit more adventurous and engaging in community, it might've felt intimidating, but now I'm really disappointed if I don't have that experience because I feel like I'm being robbed of actually being within the destination and that's what I want when I travel. So I love that it fills me up, but it's also rewarding to the place where I'm visiting. So I think it is really beneficial on both sides.
Gabi: Yeah, it's great to see how people start owning their own and having more pride in a good way about their culture and their history. Because sometimes I've seen this a lot in my travels where people don't put value on their culture and their traditions. They think, oh yeah, we always do this, or their food. Even there is mango falling in the square in Latin America all the time and people are like, it's just mango. And then you live here and then you're like, I miss those mangoes. And then I come there and I'm like, oh my god, you guys do you know, have this mango tree right here. And they're like, oh, I live traditions too. The music, the food, everything. And I love that too. And people take ownership about who they are and what they find them. And we always talk about that nature.
It's amazing and I love it, but it is also there are beautiful waterfalls everywhere and beautiful water make a destination truly special is that cultural interaction and learning about people culture. That's what put some places on the map. So having that pride to be like, okay, I'm Brazilian, I own it and it's not perfect. Not say I'm better than anybody, but I own this. And I see that transformation in the local culture too, because especially in rural communities, they were poor, right? They're like they don't live in the city, which is changing now. A lot of people are actually leaving the big cities and going live the field and understanding that the nature relation is actually a very rich experience that we all have. So it's good.
Christine: I can really relate to that. When I started out one of my first jobs in the tourism industry, I was working for a tour operator that did small adventure cruises and some land package tours and all very, very small. They went to all these amazing places like Galapagos and South America and Central America, all these places. And they said, we really want you to go and help guide this trip. It's your time, you get your reward. And I grew up in Montana and they said, the trip you get to guide is the Montana rail trip. And I was like, oh, you've got to be kidding me. All these places in the world that I could go and I'm just going home. But for me, the minute I joined my group at the airport in my least favorite town, I began to see it through their eyes and get excited about my state and where I grew up, the way that they were seeing it. And then when we took them through Yellowstone and Glacier and they just were in awe. And I just realized I had grown up in one of the most beautiful places on the planet, but I just didn't see it because it was my home. So that honor and that pride that you're talking about, I really understand that because from that moment on, my mind shifted from always wanting to leave to now I always want to return home. That
Gabi: Interesting. Yeah, I've seen that
Christine: A lot. I think that's really valuable too, to let people be invested in who they are and where they come from and know that it's really important and there's always a different perspective when you're in it, but it helps you to see it through somebody else's eyes too.
Gabi: Totally, totally agree.
Christine: So I was also wanting to talk a little bit about, I mean obviously the state of tourism and travel right now is very unique in trying to project forward and what travel looks like now and what it might look like in the future. And I know you and I have talked a little bit about this before, but how do you see what is happening now affecting what we're going to see in the future and what travelers might be looking for in the future?
Gabi: I think it will vary a little bit on the type of person and where they're from and their life experiences. If a person already was already very nervous about going abroad, and I've heard people, I don't travel to countries that don't speak English, for example. There are people like that while I'm locked that afraid. So it depends on the personality, but I think fear is a big word. People will be very fearful going forward. And for that I think the tourism industry really needs to reinsure the trust. And then of course health protocols and hygiene protocols will be a big thing everywhere and probably will change. And I hope they don't make our lives at the airports way more miserable than already is. But we can expect that too. It's going to be a little complicated and we're going to have to adjust. We're still in the midst of it.
We don't know exactly Some days even things are changing as we go, but I think trust will be important. So I think for the tourism industry, we need to really explain what we're doing as a company. Even if you're from a guide to a hotel owner, you're going to have to bring back that confidence. And I think the adventure, travel and nature-based activities are good because usually, like I said, we go to remote areas and in smaller groups and that's way more attractive than sitting in a bus with 40 other people, strangers that you don't know. Instead you go with your family group or a close group of friends and do a tour, then you go on a bike ride and you have distance. And I think we have an advantage on that I hope on that front. But I think yeah, trust will be important.
We've been seeing and listening to people, the first type of tourism that we'll probably go back is your backyard is the domestic near you. Road trips are going to be a big thing and then people are going to start. So hopefully they will start putting more love in their own hometown you're just talking about and just discovering that those little treasures around that they took for granted and then going regionally and until we feel comfortable enough to get on a long flight to go to a country. So it's going to take a while and we're going to have to buckle up a little bit on that. But I think as an industry, we have been through a lot, a tourism industry goes through countries, go through earthquakes, and the Caribbean is a great example from my region about resilience, right? Hurricanes go through, destroy the whole thing, but I think we can adapt and grow and learn and hopefully this big pause will help us learn that we have one planet and that we all live on it, that the borders are relative, right?
There is no line when you cross the border. We all just together. So I think I hope the tourism industry will teach us. I hope we would claim more free time with our families and friends, which will claim that leisure that just we were running too much. So I think for one side we well learned that we should slow down a bit and enjoy more. So local trips, discover your treasures around you and share with your family and friends and think about the impact you're bringing too. I think people will be more conscious too, I hope, thinking they impact on the climate, the impact you're doing because the word, as I said is only one.
Christine: Yeah, I think that really, that feels true to me and I also hope that that's the reality. And I was just thinking for myself when I look at where I might travel, because of course I'm already dreaming about where I can go next because it's very hard for me to not be planning a trip, but I feel like I kind of am doing a cost benefit assessment in my head. What is the richness and the reward that I'm going to get personally? And what is my interaction with the destination going to create and allow for wherever I'm going or how might it be a detriment to where I'm going? So just being even more intentional about that balance and really thinking about it. So I hope and aspire that these kind of conversations will create awareness about that and allow for that to happen and that as you were saying, people are noticing how they need to slow down, be connected with their family, that people will be seeking more mindful, intentional, rich and rewarding travel experiences. And again, for me and for you and for many that we work with, I think that allows us to have this unique opportunity because that's how we were already thinking and that's how we show up in the world and how we want to showcase the world is in that very intentional and connected way. So I really look forward to that being a bigger part of the tourism economy as it comes back.
Gabi: Yeah, use the word that I think we should totally think and use consciously intention. I think the tourism industry, you'll have to have intention, otherwise we'll come back to the same thing. People will be like cheap flights, let's jump on it. And crowds, we see some pictures already from China where people are already crowding up in space. And so it's going to have to be intentional too. I don't think we can just say, oh, you're going to be so much better now. But I think one thing that I noticed in my region, especially sometimes the governments don't put a lot of value in tourism as an economy that brings actually revenue and now hopefully they put value. Usually there is a lot of politicians that guide, that put money in their campaign as the tourism minister and never worked in tourism. And it's just like a political thing.
The minister of tourism, many countries in Latin America, which is sad, so I hope now they're like, okay, disease, an important economy and our policies because now it affects so much the economy for unemployment that the government, it has such important role and I really beg that the government start thinking about managing their destinations better and then choosing what type of tourism they want, tourists they want. Because a lot of the countries, especially in my region, they talk about, oh, numbers of visitors we have, but what money is staying on the destination? They don't talk about that or the impact that actually that causes. They're visiting islands that has no sewer system. So I love the word intention that they used, and I hope that we start building our products and the governments and get engaged and get together. I think it's going to be very important for the tourism industry to get in associations.
I think the guides, for example, is very clear how the guides are suffering because a lot of them are freelancers. They have no job security when all this happened. They're on their own. So they have to unite and work with the government. In my region also, there is this, we are so tired of corruption and governments that don't do good things that we are like, I don't want to know anything about the government, but there is no way we can live without having to be involved and get organized and hopefully start doing good better chains. But intention is a good word and I hope we have that in our hearts from the traveler. What's your intention when you go to governments, to two operators, to guides and everybody in the chain?
Christine: Yeah, yeah. I feel like that will be really important. And I can think about times when I have traveled, my family spends a lot of time in Belize and in really small villages, and I remember at one point when they were talking about bringing in the cruise industry to a different area of the country and how divided people were about how excited they were about the opportunity for income, and then people who had experienced it firsthand being really hesitant because they understood the level of burden to the systems, like you were saying, they didn't have the water for it, the electricity, the sewage, to be able to manage that influx of people. And then also really understanding how that money might even come because often travelers are really guided towards vetted vendors or towards vendors that have actually been put in place by the cruise company and it's like an illusion of economic influx of cash from that industry.
But it's really hard, I guess what I'm saying, there's this vision of grandeur and excitement that happens when you think about it, but it's not always explained really clearly all the way down or people don't understand the full benefit. So I think that intentional conversation and where we are in close contact with a lot of small operators and guides and businesses to just start conversations so that they can empower themselves and stand up for what they need. I mean, they know best how to ask for what they need in their communities and what they would like to see and what would serve them. So for me, I get really excited about that. I think those conversations are so great and when we open up that window and that place for that to happen, we learn so much from who we're working with. And I am sure for you that's a really unique perspective. You started there, you started in that little tiny operator with no internet and you know what that looks like and feels like, and now you're kind of on the other side being an advocate for them in this association. So I think that I love how you have a full circle vantage point for what that looks and feels like.
Gabi: It's so interesting what you said because some of us were taking the human element out of the tourism industry. You go to your room, your room is clean, it's not magic. There was somebody that went there and clean it up. And even if you are in an all-inclusive bubble resort, most of the employees that come in to clean your room, leaving the village outside, and now with the covid, you're really thinking, okay, but I can't only think about that. I know that they're going back and forth. So it is a service industry. It's made by people and we need to care and respect for everybody that is part of this beautiful chain we serve. And we do that with smiles and love and care, but we need to be protected as an industry and need to be, the tourists can just walk in and out without thinking that there are a lot of people and families that depend on that live through that.
That's their backyard like like I said, they all include reserve the beach was their playground and they grew up there and how much are we stopping them from being able to do that? So really think about the impact and just remember behind the tourism industry, there are tons of people and we need to think about them and care and be nice and look at them because people, they don't see sometimes they don't see the maids, the waiters, they don't see the ance guy in a hotel, they don't see people, they walk through them on the is and don't say good morning even. It's just like, come on people. I hope this has brought us to us some humbleness and some conscience that we are people and we are trying to make a living and go back to our families and provide, we're all basic humans, right?
Christine: Yeah, I think that ties really well. We had been talking a little bit before, but about community-based tourism or really strategically using tourism as a tool for investment in communities. And I know that we both have an aligned passion for what that means for women in rural communities. I don't know if you want to share a little bit about your vision with that.
Gabi: Yes, totally. I think tourism has been always a very male-oriented industry, especially on decision-making and big corporations mastery especially too when we did all our studies, we could see that more jobs were generated and more jobs for women were generated because you're going through the communities, you're staying sometimes in small boutique, you're buying handcrafts, you're learning a cooking class. And not only that, but also women have in communities a voice and they have decision-making leadership in most of the communities. And I've seen, and I've been through talking to ministers and you go to tourism events, it's a bunch of suits and a bunch of guys, and then you see one woman here over there, it's a very may oriented industry even though it's a service industry. And naturally the women, we are so powerful and we can lead, we can host, we can. It's just so much for the industry to learn from us.
So copay is definitely a problem in the tourism industry. And so I think we need to start thinking about that and changing those things too with intention again. And just being aware that we shouldn't just have low pay income in the tourism industry. Women we are equals and we can do every type. We can be ministers of tourism, we can be presidents, we can be director of a big hotel chain and whatever. Why not? And not being looked down or getting less paid. So tourism can be a tool for that. But again, again, we're going to need the intention again. So yes, and there are beautiful projects. There are tons of, in Brazil we have tons of beautiful community-based tourism. Peru is a great example where you see the empowerment of women and how that has changed the economy and leadership examples and how that changed. It's proven so many studies that if you have more women in leadership in your company, in any type of business, you do better. So stop and being so macho. Macho and bring women
Christine: In.
Yeah, I have definitely noticed that myself. I mean, I have been in different areas of the tourism industry for almost 20 years and I have definitely felt that moment, especially when I was younger and not as confident walking into a room of all men in suits and just wondering if I belong there, which is really difficult and having to overcome that. And I do feel really blessed that I'm in the segment that we're in where I feel like this kind of more conscious brand of tourism is much more open to supporting women in the industry. But I also remember, and I think you and I talked about this the first time that I went to the adventure travel summit and there was two women that got up and spoke. It was the first time that I actually could envision myself as a leader in the industry and really hadn't seen anyone that I could look up to in that way. And it finally gave me permission to even dream it. So I think
Gabi: I've had experiences where I wasn't being heard because they were asking my colleague, which was a guy, and the guy actually to his credit and was like, no, you should ask her. She knows more than this element than I do. And the people are like, okay, and listen to me for a second. And I went back to the guy and I've seen that happen. And I think it's an invitation for the guys out there too, to be aware and what my colleague did to me and actually empowered me in front of these other people you should be doing too. And just noticing those things because it's so insider cultures now that especially in some regions of the world, which is more that it's normal, don't let the women have a voice or don't pay them the same or just don't treat them as equals. And again, the intention, I think that's the word of our talk today. If I had to summarize and I hope guys out there have the intention to keep an eye and looking around if your colleagues, your female colleagues are being treated right with respect and being listened to and not main explained in all those things, just really giving them the voice. And I think I see that more in community-based and last master is, but we all should learn and we all go back and forth and we all make mistakes. But intention just have that in the back of your head. Say, alright, I'll keep a look.
Christine: Yeah, I think it's a really important conversation and I was already dreaming that my season two of the soul of travel, I think I really would love to focus on women in the industry in all different facets from all over the supply chain and what that experience looks like and how tourism is used as a tool to empower women in other countries because that is one of the things that I really focus on within my trips and connecting with artisans and meeting with women around the world to create a connected community of women. That's my passion and I hadn't really even thought to tie the two together until you and I talked prior to this call. So I love that. I'm already so excited for the next round.
Gabi: Yeah, I really felt it too because I'm married to an industry leader myself and I had to kind of reprove myself too that I'm not, I have my value and I think I've done it, but I felt from the beginning, especially I'm not just a wife, I actually have a role in working together can be complicated. I don't want to be defined at somebody else's life. Gabby is so I have my whole career, I have tons of experience and I don't want to be, because sometimes that happens too. Like okay, your wife of so-and-so and people stop listening to you and just put you in that category. So sometimes I just say I introduce myself without saying because sometimes it derails the conversation. People stop listening to me so I have to prove. But I think just keep working hard for the women out there. Just believe in yourself. Don't give up and just keep, because the best way to show is not even to brag about how good you are, it's just do it and it's going to show up, it's going to show up with time. Just be patient, don't give up and people will learn that you have your value and you have your voice and you have your knowledge.
Christine: So one of the other things that I really wanted this interview series to showcase is the power of travel and the power it has for connection and transformation. And I was just wondering if you might share with us one travel experience that you think would really resonate with people or that impacted you in a great way?
Gabi: I have so many and we can be talking here for hours. I'm going to tell one that really was. I think one of my favorite trips and one of that really taught me so much is my trips to Kosovo and the Balkans and we did a bike ride to the rural communities and I would forget where I was because it was very similar to rural Brazil where I grew up and it's the same thing, farmers, family, people cooking. And so sometimes I would even forget what I was riding my bike trying to catch my breath out of shape. So I was like, alright. And then I would see a village cemetery and that my guide went through the 1999 massacre that happened in the Balkans and I was so close to them and I was really ignorant and I knew about the cause of war and everything, but I didn't.
Brazil is such a peaceful country. We in war like okay, even to protest the president out, we do parties on the street. So the war for me is such a foreign concept that it was really humbling to know. And our guide was brilliant and really good and he was explaining all the history and I googled all the history in between Serbia Co of Albania and I felt so ignorant about the details, but it was also humbling to understand those are families, those are people, the fact of the war in their community, the multi generation. That guy was saying, I'm trying to teach my son not to hate the neighbors anymore. And he is like third generation after it and still it's so deep in their culture. So that was a really humbling trip and really transformative because I really understood the impact of the war, but also the humanity that people are just humans.
Literally you can cross the street and go to, it feels like a different neighborhood and there's different type of, religion is a different type of language, it's a different flag that was, but it's all people and they're all neighbors. Literally what a trip that changed my life in that element of putting me in the context of how we are so different and so common that we all need the basic things and how of course when we can't get along and we can have a health dialogue, we can do ugly things to each other that are unnecessary. One of the most special moments of that trip was actually, so we did the whole bal, not the whole, but a lot of the Balkans in my last time was in Albania and I was walking tired, it was the end of the day, needed a coffee, couldn't speak the language. There was this community, this village, this older guy shepherd. And so I was asking him if there was coffee anywhere, there was nothing. And he trying to communicate with me and then his wife came along and they brought us to their house and we had coffee, they made the coffee for us and pointed pictures with no language at all, but they're showing pictures of their kids. We talk, like I said, Brazil, they like soccer of course I always hear that.
And we had a lovely coffee together. Of course they didn't charge us and that was just comforting to know we are all the same. Like I said before, the borders don't matter. We all need shelter, love, family, we need to provide. That's it. And the more we travel, the more you connect with people and you understand that you're not better than anybody, that we have a lot to learn from those people. So that's one of the examples. But that was still one of my favorite trips. And again, I'm like, oh man, I'm so ignorant. I always feel ignorant when I traveled, but now I want to travel more. I learned so much about culture and about history and about those place. So that's a small example, but if you haven't been to the Balkans go, it's definitely a great, great area. Nature is amazing, food is delicious and people are kind and it's great.
Christine: Yeah, I would definitely love to. I really feel like everywhere I want to go, but I have heard such great stories from that area as well. And I think that what you were saying about that moment when you really connect as just brothers and sisters of the human race is for me always, it's just that humbling even moment where you just feel different. And that is always my favorite part of traveling. No matter where I am, I just feel like I've been given that gift over and over where I just pause and I just get to share space really beautifully with whomever I'm connecting with. And I always feel like that's the biggest gift that they give me and that I can receive. And that's what I really try to offer and create on the experiences that I offer as well as just moments where that might be able to happen.
And obviously we have to be open to it, but I think it's the most powerful thing that travel offers. And like you were saying, even people who travel all the time, and I've traveled with people who've been in the industry for 40 years and I swear they've been on every inch of this planet. And you still sometimes watch them have that moment where they are like, wow, I don't know anything. I can't believe I didn't know this. You set out so confident as you get on the airplane and you're like, I'm going to take this trip, take charge of this experience. And the minute your feet hit the soil you realize you were wrong in the best way. I feel like always just begins that minute. The trip starts to teach you and to give you the lessons that are waiting for you. And I just think that's so powerful and really important. Again, I think when you sent the intention to be really immersed in your journey and your experience, then you create more room for that to happen. So
Gabi: Exactly, just be respectful, be open, be humble about it. Just be aware that you are aghast those people's areas and villages and whatnot and be very, very open to, but usually 99% of the time you're going to have people so kind to you that it's going to blow your mind. It's amazing. Not been to communities where from outside they look poor or whatnot and they're sharing, they're bringing you in for a meal, they are giving you something, they're exchanging hats with you and just so proud to show where they live and what they do. And that's so beautiful. I think even people are asking a lot, will the virtual experience solicit to a real trip? I don't think so because you can't create that. The smells, the heat, the hug, the sharing, the flavor of the food. It can be a tool for sure, but I don't think it will ever, because the immersion is what does a lot of the transformation when you travel and just be part of that ecosystem and the sounds and the birds and everything. It's the whole context that helps. So I think we need to go see it. And once you leave that, that's the travel bug. People say, once you had that transformation experience, see there's no way. I'm like, yeah, I'm done with it. I want more of that and I want to know more and be less ignorant in the matter in the true word, not knowing things I really want to know more. Right?
Christine: Yeah, it's definitely addicting, but in the best way. So let me see if there was anything else that I specifically wanted to ask you. Well, I'll let you if there's anything else that you wanted to share. But the other thing that I wanted to do is just make sure that allow space for if there's any way that people can support A T T A or organizations that you work with. I know there's so many people obviously that are really trying to keep their businesses alive, non nonprofits that a lot of our companies support. I don't know if there's a resource or anything that you would like to share for our listeners that they can get in touch with you or in touch with to support directly.
Gabi: Definitely. So our industry has an organization called Adventure Travel Conservation Fund, which is a fund where a lot of the members donate for it. And that amount of money is usually used in projects all over the world related to adventure, travel, community-based tourism, from structure to training to anything those projects need. So that's a great way to be involved if you want to donate there and as a person for everybody out there there is just be more aware that the impact that you do when you travel, make conscious choices, even if they're not the cheapest ones. Make the constant choice of your travel, your purchases, what you do, and also be respectful. Try to, you can help by still not canceling and asking for a refund. We are struggling right now as more companies are struggling. So if you can postpone, buy a gift to certificate for somebody at some point, if you haven't been affected by like us in the tourism industry and your industry is doing fine, considering supporting guides, that's a big one.
There are a lot of small companies doing GoFundMe. Look back in the companies you've traveled and go see how they're doing. They probably have GoFundMe, they have probably asking for you to non cancel. Go back and think about those people, those amazing trips you have and see how you can help with those small projects. There are many out there right now. If you don't know any, go to our website or the Adventure Travel Conservation Fund website and you can donate there. And so it's a nonprofit. You can get all the benefits of the taxes part and you're doing something good. But just be aware, think twice and do some research. Ask the tough questions next time you travel. It's okay because it is a privilege to travel and you should be a conscious traveler. So that's my invitation and my challenge. Be intentional in your thoughts when you travel.
Christine: Excellent. Well thank you so much. I have loved this conversation and have been looking forward to it for so long. So I'm grateful that this time is here and thank you for spending a little bit of time with me and with everyone who's listening today.
Gabi: Yeah, if anybody wants to know more, talk to, please email me. Gabby at the Venture Travel is happy to follow you too. And if you want to know where to travel, ET is a global organization. If you're like, I really, really wanted to go to Papua New Guinea and I dunno anybody, we know somebody, so feel free to contact me. And we are all brothers and sisters like we talk. So happy to be here for you guys, anything you need and thank you for the opportunity. It was a fun, fun interview.
Christine: Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
Gabi: Hope to see you soon, Kate, stay healthy.
Christine: Thank you, you too.
Christine: Thank you for listening to the Soul of Travel podcast presented by Journey Woman. I hope you enjoyed this journey. If you loved this conversation, I encourage you to subscribe and rate the podcast. Please share episodes that inspire you with others because this is how we extend the impact of this show. Learn more about each of my guests by reading our episode blogs, which are more than your average show notes. I think you'll love the connection. Find our episode blogs at www.souloftravelpodcast.com. I'm so proud of the way these conversations are bringing together people from around the world. If this sounds like your community, welcome, I am so happy you are here. I am all about community and would love to connect. You can find me on Facebook at Soul of Travel podcast or follow me on Instagram at either she dot sojourns or at Soul of Travel podcast. Stay up to date by joining the Soul of Travel podcast mailing list. You'll also want to explore Journey Women Community and it's resources for women travelers over 50. A quick thank you to my podcast producer and content magician, Carly Eduardo, c e o of Convergent. Thank you for supporting me in my mission to amplify the voices of women in tourism. I look forward to getting to know you and hopefully hear your story.
You can find me on Facebook at Lotus Sojourns on Facebook, or join the Lotus Sojourns Collective, our FB community, or follow me on Instagram either @lotussojourns or @souloftravelpodcast. Stay up to date by joining the Lotus Sojourns mailing list. I look forward to getting to know you and hopefully hearing your story.