Episode 71 - Malia Asfour, Jordan Tourism Board in North America

Travel

Apr 6

Bridge building is a symbol of unity, political or physical. So why not physically promote unity by bringing people together and showing them a snapshot of your unique culture?

Travel is a favorite topic of Christine’s and on a recent trip, she was reminded about the transformative power of travel to explore beyond business connections and make meaning.

This episode was originally aired during the first season of the podcast. The first season was called Tourism Rising. It is a celebration of those in the industry who are coming together to start our journey to rise up in a new age of travel. As we move through this time, I see intentional and transformational travel as a place to land when travelers begin to set back out into the world seeking connection and meaningful travel experiences.

Malia Asfour's job is to "build bridges between people throughout the world."

Malia is the Director of the Jordan Tourism Board in North America (JTBNA) and has worked for the Jordanian government since 1995. She currently serves on the Board of Directors of the National Tourism Association Services, Inc.(NTASI). She is a member of the Adventure Travel Trade Association’s (ATTA) Advisory Board and also serves on the US Tour Operator Association’s Allied & Associate Committee (USTOA); the National Tourism Association’s Faith Tourism Advisory Council (NTA) and is Vice Chair 1 of Tourism Cares.

The Meaningful Travel Map project, launched in partnership with Tourism Cares, adds special experiences for those traveling to Jordan. By offering unique and hands-on cultural experiences for travelers, each of these social enterprises is satisfying the demand from travelers seeking authentic sustainable experiences that make a difference, and their need to use the power of travel to help people and places thrive. If this is what you are looking for, you have come to the right place!

As you listen to this episode, you'll hear her clarity around treating this responsibility with the utmost care and passion. Malia and Christine talk about the value of leaving what you know and exploring the world in a new context, the beauty of sharing space over traveling to "fix" or provide a solution, and the magic of tourism that is connected to a place's history.

Christine and Malia also talk about social enterprise, The Meaningful Travel Map and the balance of experiences that are good for the traveler and good for the communities and explore what happens for travelers when they slow down and take time to connect and experience authentic local culture. They touch on the importance of spending your money supporting local businesses and artisans and how impactful those purchases really are. You'll also learn a bit about what it is like exploring the Jordan Trail and all the corners of Jordan.

Join me now for my fun and soulful conversation with Malia Asfour.

In this episode, Christine and Malia discuss:

Malia’s background and how she found travel
The value of leaving what you know and exploring the world in a new context
The Meaningful Travel Map
The balance of experiences that are good for the traveler and good for the communities
What happens for travelers when they slow down and take time to connect and experience authentic local culture
The magic of tourism that is connected to a place's history
The importance of spending your money supporting local businesses and artisans
How impactful those purchases are for local communities
What it is like exploring the Jordan Trail and all the corners of Jordan
The beauty of sharing space over traveling to "fix" or provide a solution

Resources & Links Mentioned in the Episode

To learn more about traveling to Jordan and to learn about important travel updates that may impact your journey, visit: www.myjordanjourney.com.

Follow Malia Asfour and Visit Jordan on your favorite social platform: Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter

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About the Soul Of Travel Podcast

Soul of Travel honors the passion and dedication of the people making a positive impact in tourism. In each episode, you’ll hear the story of women who are industry professionals and seasoned travelers and community leaders who know travel is more than a vacation. It is an opportunity for personal awareness and it is a vehicle for change. We are thought leaders, action takers, and heart-centered change makers.

The guests work in all sectors of the tourism industry. You'll hear from adventure-based community organizations, social impact businesses, travel photographers and videographers, tourism boards and destination marketing organizations, and transformational travel experts. They all honor the idea that travel is more than a vacation and focus on sustainable travel, eco-travel, community-based tourism, and intentional travel.

These conversations are meant to educate, inspire and create community. They are directed to new travelers and seasoned travelers, as well as industry professionals and those who are curious about a career in travel.

If you want to learn about new destinations, types of travel, or how to be more intentional or live life on purpose, join Christine Winebrenner Irick for soulful conversations with her community of fellow travelers exploring the heart, the mind, and the globe. These conversations highlight what tourism really means for the world.

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Credits. Christine Winebrenner Irick (Host, creator, editor.) Malia Asfour (Guest). Original music by Clark Adams. Editing and production by Rayna Booth.

Transcript

KEYWORDS

Jordan, travel, tourism, people, women, connect, trail, community, travelers, local community, experience, destination, connection

Christine Winebrenner Irick 00:08

Thank you for joining me for soulful conversations with my community of fellow travelers, exploring the heart, the mind and the globe. These conversations highlight what travel really means for the world. Soul of Travel honors the passion and dedication of the people making a positive impact in tourism. Each week, I'll be speaking to women who are tourism professionals, world travelers and leaders in their communities will explore how travel has changed them and how that has rippled out and inspired them to change the world. These conversations are as much about travel as they are about passion, and living life with purpose, chasing dreams, building businesses, and having the desire to make the world a better place. This is a community of people who no travel is more than a vacation. It is an opportunity for personal awareness, and it is a vehicle for change. We are thought leaders, action takers, and heart centered change makers I'm Christine Winebrenner Irick. And this is the Soul of Travel.

Malia Asfour is the Director of the Jordan Tourism Board in North America, we begin our conversation with a look at what travelers may need safety to mean in a post COVID world and consider how tourism will change to have a more sustainable and meaningful focus. We talk about ways to make travel more meaningful and how projects like the meaningful travel map. A collaboration with tourism cares can create opportunities for deeper connections that ripple out into more impact. We look at how each dollar you spend can have more of an impact on the community, and is an opportunity to create shared experiences and connections. We also bring light to the importance of connecting with artisans and preserving culture by selling handcrafted goods. Empowering women through this work creates opportunities for leadership and cultural shifts. Malia is someone I have always looked up to in my career. And I know she'll leave you inspired and ready for a journey to Jordan. Join me now for my conversation with Malia Asfour.

Good morning. Welcome to the Soul of Travel interview series. This is episode number seven. And today I'm really happy to be speaking with Malia Asfour, from the Jordan Tourism Board in North America. And I'm excited to talk a little bit about travel in Jordan and the meaningful travel map which is a really exciting project that resonates with my mission to connect with local communities and experience authentic culture in the destinations that I travel and also doing it in a mindful way where the connection is authentic and beneficial to the travelers and the community. So I love that that's kind of the whole premise of that project. Malia, I would love to give you the opportunity to share with our listeners a little bit about yourself and your background in tourism, and a little bit about the work that you do at the Tourism Board.

03:23

Good morning. And thank you for having me. And congratulations on episode number seven. That's also so proud of you. So I have been working in the tourism sector since 94, which is a big age for me. But we started the Tourism Board in, launched it, started working on it 96 and launched at 97 for the North American market. And it's been my first baby. So I'm very proud of the leaps and strides that we've made. My team is incredible. And we do it together. And it's pretty rewarding. And I've been very privileged and lucky to be in the sector, because our jobs literally build bridges between people around the world. And I think that speaks to me. And that's very important to myself.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 04:21

Thank you. I remember the first time that I met you at the educational travel conference. What seems like a very long time ago, I think close to that number, but what I really remember is the one the group of women that you had, and I remember thinking, Wow, look how many women are engaged in this business. So for one that was one door that opened and the passion that you all had for what you were doing was very, very, I was very aware of that. And again it kind of For me, was one of those moments where I realized that people can really honestly love the work they do. And it can be really fulfilling to them personally. And that when you are in an environment like that, the opportunity that you have to create impact, I could just, I really felt a lot from that connection. And it really inspired me.

So thank you, for that was kind of when I was just leaving graduate school and trying to figure out what my role in this industry would be, I knew it would be something but I didn't know exactly what yet. And I just, it was that empowering me to know that I could be a leader in the industry, knowing that I could do something passionate with conviction and be really sincere about that. And then also, for me, in that community, I grew up, we were just talking, I grew up in rural Montana, I had always had these visions of connecting with other people, because I lived in a pretty common everyone looked like me sounded like me talk like me, I was like, I remember telling my mom, when I grew up, I'm like, I just, I want to go someplace with culture. I didn't know what I was saying. But I just craved diversity and connection with other people and other cultures. And I wanted to be immersed in them. And I didn't want a false snapshot. I wanted a real authentic connection. But I didn't know what any of that looked like. And I remember, even where Jordan is? Oh, that's Petra, and then learning about it.

And immediately for me, my touch point mentally was the three of you, whenever I thought of Jordan, and so that gave me an ability to think safely and dream safely about going there. And so I think where you're talking about tourism bridging gaps, I think that's what it does, right? We only need one person that we know gives us that bridge, and we can cross it. And so I think that is the power. And I think at this moment in time, this is so important. And to know that it really can be that simple. So thank you for that experience. And even though you probably never knew that it existed, but um, so I would love to talk a little bit about that. How do you see travel, kind of adapting to this new world? So we're not only now looking at kind of coming out of this COVID crisis and what it will mean to be an international traveler or even really leave our homes. And then in terms of continuing to build on bridging that gap?

07:52

Well, there's so much change, right, that's that's been hit. I think we're the hardest hit industry worldwide. And there's a lot of shifts and changes that have happened from now thinking when you think of health. And when you think of safety, it's now you're not thinking of safety, the way you used to think of safety, safety in terms of your health and hygiene, and those protocols. And so I feel like we have all our mindset shifted, and the direction of what tourism looks like, for most people has shifted. So I think moving forward, we're going to be looking at things like health and hygiene. What are the closest hospitals? What is the medical facility in the destination that you will be traveling to? But then we're also going to start looking at things I feel more from a sustainable angle.

Where can I go? Where I'm going to be supportive? Where can I go, where I can be a force for good, where my money is going to be spent, helping build back helping local communities that have been affected by the crisis? Where the wide open spaces that I couldn't be and so that I do you have the social distancing, to say that I think this is going to play a role in the psyche. I also feel that destination marketing organizations like ours are going to start looking at management more closely and scrutinize banishment more closely than we have before because we don't want to go back into an over tourism type of situation that we've had in some countries. And we need to start looking at it from a management perspective of how we manage the tourism structure moving forward. So I think there's a lot of different layers and different pieces that are going to happen in different countries. Moving forward with the travel industry.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 09:57

Yeah. And I think what my important context for people who are listening is that definitely all of these layers existed before. And kind of like many other things, this is just magnifying some of those pieces. And I think part of why I wanted to have these conversations is to bring awareness to the efforts that were already there, looking at sustainability, looking at being a responsible, more mindful traveler, and then allowing people who are starting to travel again to understand what they can look for and ask for.

So I love that being an important part of the conversation. And another thing that has come up over and over is what people you know, you were talking about safety and thing, and hygiene, and then beyond health care, that travelers are going to be weighing kind of doing this cost benefit analysis with their time with their money with their, with themselves, and what they want out of it, I think, and hope is going to be something more powerful. So I think that lines right up with the kind of work that you have been trying to promote in Jordan, that people don't want to just go and have this quick experience. They just don't want to see Petra and check it off their box, they want to really understand the culture, they want to spend some time in the area, seeing what else is there, at least, I hope.

And I think that also detracts from that over tourism, because people are being more intentional with why they're going somewhere, and it's not going to just be this quick trip or this fast paced experience. I wonder if we could just talk a little bit about the Meaningful Travel Map. Um, I know that you launched that in partnership with tourism care's, which is another really great organization. And maybe I'll give you space to share a little bit about them as well, but with the intent of offering hands on cultural experiences, and I love that they're in conjunction with places where people would be going in Jordan anyway, they're, they're already right there. They don't have to wander far to bring that into their experience. So it makes it really accessible. But would you share a little bit about how that project came about and what you were looking to serve? And then again, like I said, maybe a little bit about tourism cares as well. Absolutely.

12:27

So tourism cares with Jordan was a passion project of mine and of tourism cares, we were the first destination to launch the Meaningful Travel Map with tourism cares. And it's really this project that feeds my soul. We worked with, I have the privilege of serving on the board of directors of tourism cares. I'm now the Vice Chair, one of the second vice chairs on the executive committee. And it's been an awesome, awesome ride, because this is an organization that really helps destinations around the United States and around the world with sustainable tourism development. And with regards to the meaningful travel map, we worked with tourism carriers to identify social says this projects in Jordan that were on close to a destination within the country that had a lot of tourism, where we could actually help bring the tourism to some of the social enterprises that were that mirrored the sites or that were close to the sites so that the other locations around the sites can benefit from tourism. And so we went around the country, interviewed many social enterprises and started off with 12. And these 12 social enterprises are from the northern parts of Jordan to the southern parts of Jordan.

And you can go and visit these local enterprises and be able to do all kinds of different things with the weather. If you go to Beta.Souf, which is not far from Gerrish, you can go and cook with the local community, learn about some of the organic farming that they do, some of the food products that they have, and all the money that was spent there stays within the local community. They've been able to open a daycare for kids, they've been open, they've been able to help empower the local community, build jobs, etc. So the few dollars that you spent in these local communities magnify and are incredibly empowering. There's so many different sites within Have the meaningful travel map that you can visit that give you that authentic experience that most travelers want. So you can go to the phenol Eco Lodge, and have an immersive bedouin experience. There's 28 rooms, it's easy to social distance there, it's easy to have a very authentic experience.

But you come out of there change person, because you've connected, you know, you've been able to bake breads, bread with one of the women there or make candles or go shepherding with one of the shepherds, you can go to encase in the northern parts of Jordan, and go foraging, take your kids to learn about beekeeping and foraging with the locals or how to cook as well, too, are some of the sites start, it's the site where the Georgian trail sack starts, you could go and start walking part of the Jordan trail and learning more about the different topography etc, that Jordan has to offer. So it is really, I would say, a sustainable local experience where your tourism dollars are a force for good. And well, you're keeping money in local communities to help communities thrive.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 16:19

Yeah, that is another point that I really try to communicate with my travelers and just one of the things I love talking about is creating awareness around that I think a lot of travelers don't understand. They think that they're in Jordan, they're in Guatemala, they're in Peru, that their money would be supporting the local economy. And I think a lot of times, they aren't aware that international hotel chain might be some of that money is leaving the economy or the way sometimes tourist, you know, gift shops and things are set up, it's it's not the same as actually giving your money right to a local community member, or the price is much higher. So I don't, it just creates a different dynamic. And I just, I just think a lot of people aren't conscious of that. So I love just thinking about that, that if you go and you buy a coconut from someone local, that dollar that you spend is so exponentially more valuable than the dollar or five that you would spend at the hotel. And it's a really easy way to help travelers feel more empowered to create an impact. It's just, it's so simple. And then it also goes back to creating that connection, where you're actually seeing someone in their local village in their home, their kids are probably going to walk up and talk to them. And it just becomes much more of a global community feel like you just feel much more welcomed to where they are.

18:00

Absolutely, I mean, it changes it. First of all, like for when you're talking about the coconut, for example, if you go to the big souvenir shops, most of the items are not locally made, they're brought in from China or other parts of the world and resold, and they don't have the story. And so I think we would become more aware of travelers spending an extra 50 cents or $1, to get something that's handmade by a local community that has a story. And when you know what's happening with that money that you've bought this little purse, farmer, this little coaster from a What have you or honey or anything, then you know, that it, then it changes something inside you. And when you get that you're able to tell the story of that gift, you know, and that has ripple effects in itself too. So I think it's important as we start to build back from a tourism angle that we really start looking at these things and making the industry more aware of these opportunities that are available. Tourism cares with Jordan as the first the second one is going to be in Colombia.

Next February, I had the privilege of going to Colombia and also looking at some of the locations that we're going to put on the meaningful travel map for Colombia. And there are some incredible experiences that we're going to be able to add to that. So tourism and curate cares created this meaningful travel platform where you can go and learn about the social enterprises in the different countries and how they can be supported. And this platform is open to the travel community to be able to learn more so hopefully we can through the work you're doing the work we're doing etc. Be able to amplify these kinds of messages about how you shop, where you shop, how you eat, where you eat. What does it mean to be local? What does it mean? to immerse because it changes everybody for the good, you know

Christine Winebrenner Irick 20:10

Hi, it's Christine. Interrupting this episode for just a moment to make sure you know you still have time to join our 2022 Lotus books sojourn. This is a unique journey exploring the heart, the mind and the globe through the pages of nine specially selected books written by inspiring female authors.

Your journey includes two guided virtual discussions each month with a community of light hearted women, as well as weekly journaling prompts and reflection, and an assigned travel companion for each book in the journey. Last year, women said this was one of the most surprising and impactful experiences they had.

Join us for rich discussion, meaningful connection, and an opportunity for exploration from the comfort of your home, or wherever you might be in 2022. Your next opportunity to join us is in April for a three or six month experience. Visit the website at www.Lotussojourns.com/book-sojourn to join today.

Now back to our soulful conversation.

Yeah, I think oftentimes, and I've had this happen over and over and travel. So I would think that at some point, it couldn't happen anymore. But I have sat down, maybe I was meant to be speaking with a group of people and, and educating them on something and it like really quickly becomes irrelevant, because I might have something to say, but I'm not educating, I'm just participating in conversation, and then I'm learning so much. And I always feel like it's so humbling, right, it's just that experience that creates the shared human connection. And it happens really quickly if you're open to it, and especially when you're traveling kind of in that slower connected way. And it's very, very, very powerful. I just, I can't think of how many times where I've had that privilege of, of seeing someone else's world through their eyes and loving it, understanding it, understanding the difficulties and challenges, but also understanding the beauty in a way that I never could, because I might have been bringing my own context and my own lens, into the situation and, and just having this mindset of kind of wanting to help or make things better, which I think is a natural human instinct.

But when you just sit and share space again, you can already see what is good and and there often isn't as much to do that you as you think I guess it's just a different, a different way of being in that space. And I think that these types of experiences that you're talking about will really allow for that shift. And it is life changing. I focus on transformational travel in my company. And what I noticed or what I loved about travel, it's those experiences, right, where I was transformed, I left that place a different person. And it didn't have to be on a huge magnitude. But some part of me now knew something different, felt something different was more connected. And when I started to figure out what I wanted to offer to people as those connections, and at first I thought it was going to be impossible. I thought, Oh, I had this unique experience over and over again, that I couldn't possibly replicate. But what I'm delighted to find is that it can be replicated. It's just very much the intention and the mindset and the openness or those experiences to happen.

24:01

For sure. Sure. And I think, you know, as we travel more, we open up more, and we find out that we're all more alike than different, which is pretty awesome.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 24:14

Yeah. And it can be scary to do, but it's like a muscle and it's like a practice. And you just try it a little first, right? Like you take your first yoga class and you might like it, you try another one. And it's the same with travel. I think we have built these boxes around ourselves and we do think we're protecting ourselves. But the minute that you have that moment that I know I'm sure you've had it just changes and it's the most beautiful thing and that's what I really want to be able to share with the world. And I think another thing with the soul of travel is that I think there's a lot of people that that's their mission. I think that's your mission. So many people I've had beautiful conversations with but I wonder what is What inspired you to make this path and travel your path? Like, there's obviously so many ways that we could have you step into mass tourism, you can be focused on making money, you can travel in a very different way. And I know for me, it is just, it is like, I can't not travel this way. I've tried, it feels uncomfortable, but what, what was your introduction to this being possible and important and why this is how you want to show the world to other people. So I

25:33

I guess it stems from being a child, that's from a mixed cultural background. I have an American mother and a Jordanian father. And so I've been traveling since I was a month old. And I've traveled distances, and I've been very privileged and lucky to have seen so much of our incredible world. But as a kid, we would often go throughout Jordan and throughout places and, and, and when you see poverty when you see people who have less than you have. And then you go, and you sit with them, and you talk with them. And you realize that they still want to play the same thing, where you want to play and they're excited just to be with you. I think that changes something inside you. And so for me, I think it's it, my mandate is to bring tourism to Jordan, right? My mandate is to promote tourism, as Jordan is a tourism destination to try to disperse people all over the country so that the economic value of tourism is felt throughout the whole country.

And that, to do that, you have to understand what's available in the country. And we're blessed as a destination, we have over 30,000 registered our theological sites, we have so many faith sites in the country. And so being a destination that's so rich in tourism, and people, most people think of Jordan as Petra, we really try to focus on other parts of Jordan and try to disperse travel throughout. And when you start to do that, and you start to see the reactions that people get, it fuels your soul, right. And so I think that's what drives me and my team to try to look at things from a different lens, try to push the envelope a little bit. That's not just Petra, even though Petra is magnificent, but try to do Petra maybe in a different way, than the less impactful way. Because it has, it's a very sensitive site, and we have to protect it for our kids and our grandkids and for us. And so I think the mindset comes from experience and from learning and from being with like minded people in the industry, and really trying to look at tourism as a force for good and how you can make a difference. And so for us, I think all of us, my team and I, because I don't do it alone, we really try to focus on that angle and look at it from that lens, and what can benefit the country versus what you know what type of travel per se. So we work in all the pieces of travel, but we try to infuse meaningful travel within all the different niche markets that we work in.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 28:42

And I think that is important because when I've traveled, like, for instance, I have an itinerary in Peru and everybody asks, why don't you start with Machu Picchu? Why don't you go to Machu Picchu? And you know, it's beautiful, and it's amazing. And you should definitely go there. And you should be mindful of the impact you have when you go there. But I don't take trips there and people are worried they're going to miss something. Because they're not going there. But I love that they don't. I mean, they get to see this place, they would have never gone. And I think the same thing what you're saying with Jordan would be true that there's so much out there. And when you become so focused on this one element that you actually are missing something, right. So I think that's really important. And I love looking at a country that way. And when I start to build my itineraries, I think okay, I know that's people's bucket list. That's probably why they're thinking of coming, that's why they think they would go with me and so trying to honor that and balance that with okay, maybe we can look at that and like you said do it in a different way. But then make sure that we're really embracing the rest of the country too and being able to spread our impact.

29:56

One of the things we suffer from is that we don't have enough tours. I'm in Amman, the capital. And not that we don't have enough. But we can do more. And what's missing is that people don't understand that this is a vibrant city that has so many nooks and crannies and so much art and architecture and culture. And that, and we need to focus more. I mean, our men, our theme this year was to focus more on Amman and the northern parts of Jordan. Unfortunately, with the COVID crisis, we're all in limbo, but we're trying to inspire at least.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 30:35

Yeah, and people can still have conversation and learn and become aware and impassioned to travel there when they can. So that's what I've been focusing on, like the things that happen when we travel, some of those experiences and the way it feels in your body, we can do other things that create that now to keep us connected and then ready to return. So I love thinking about connecting with artisans. And when I travel, that's a really important part for me. So again, this kind of ties back to the meaningful travel map, but I feel like it's the quickest way to one, I have a women's travel program.

So for women to connect with women, and then to really experience culture, because so often, you know, they're working to actively conserve those traditions of weaving or handy, whatever their handcraft is, and pass that down to generations where it's getting lost, just like it is in the United States. I mean, we often think those traditions are held strong and fast in other countries. And I don't know why we think that, because that's what we go and see, I guess, as tourists, but I love having those conversations with artists in saying, you know how they are, they are really working to share this with their children and their grandchildren to make sure that it lives on. So connecting with artisans provides that strong touch point with culture and authenticity with women and empowering women. And I'm trying to find my note on it. But I know the weavers project, that we have EDA, yes, money, honey that was saying that she one of the women who began as a volunteer became a supervisor and the project manager and now manages is one of six women elected to the minute in the municipal elections, would you share that story because I think I've seen that happen in other countries. And like, that's the magic, like, I love that. That's my favorite.

32:39

There are several stories similar to that in Jordan, but this woman is incredible. So she had learned how to weave from her grandmother and, and her grandmother from her mother and her grandmother. So it's been passed down through generations. And it was sort of a dying art until the Jordan River Foundation came in and identified some micro financing for this community, and started the project. And so this one, this woman is a force of nature. And she decided that she was going to be part of the project and was hired to be one of the weavers.

And what she did is she decided to learn how to drive and her husband helped her. And she got a pickup truck. And she would go around the village, pick up all these women, pack them up in the pickup truck, go to the shop and teach them how do we and eventually they started this whole Benny heavy project, which is incredible weaving projects, they do beautiful rugs, everyone has a story, but they have other weaving. They do baskets and other things as well. And, she educated herself, educated her kids and her kids were the first kids in the village to be able to go to university. She ran for the municipal elections and has a voice in the community. And she is a force of nature that empowers women left right and center and it's awesome. And literally if you saw where she came from and where she is, it's a beautiful story.

There's another woman in the north that is also part of the better car destinations with a meaningful travel map. And this woman started off with her husband being laid off. He didn't have a job because he was in a lot of debt. The authorities were coming after him because he wasn't able to place taxes etc. So she would have convinced him to get a job and start working at one of the Bed and Breakfasts. And so she started being a cleaning lady. And eventually she became the manager. And eventually she hired her husband. So you know, these women, empowering women to do this kind of work, I think is extremely important, but also making a huge difference in communities and in the psyche of kids as they're starting to grow up and realizing the equality that we need to have between our genders. So it's pretty awesome.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 35:30

Yeah. And I think it's a beautiful story. Thank you for sharing. I, I also love that, it's similar to what I was saying, when I first met you. And I didn't know that I could do what I wanted to do, right? These women start seeing each other in their villages becoming leaders and having a voice and. And then they know that they can strive for that, because they didn't even know they could strive for it before maybe it was in their heart. Or maybe it was just so far reaching they couldn't even dream it but they quickly rippled out, they started seeing each other. And it is a force to be reckoned with. And I've had the privilege of witnessing that with a project that I've been connected with in Guatemala, and the demeanor and the mannerism and the confidence. And it's, it's so amazing to see how quickly, it becomes something new. And, then to be able to be a part of that and share it and even just for a moment is very powerful for ourselves as well, because we can see ourselves in each other. And we can also connect to that moment when we're feeling like challenges are overwhelming. Or maybe we can't navigate something we can pull from that shared experience and think, look at what they overcame to become who they were dreaming of being. And it makes it a lot easier. And that's again, that for me that global sisterhood and that shared humanity piece is really the most important piece of travel. And I agree. Yeah, I think that's