Episode 75 - Prachi Thakur, World Women Tourism

Travel

May 4

When women travel don't just visit the places they travel to. They also take home with them the people they met, the questions they asked, and most importantly the answers they sought. Traveling is transformative. It shapes us into alert, open-minded people who see the world in its true colors – not just as a physical place full of diverse cultures and people, but something much more subtle. Every traveler is changed by the experiences he or she has during the trip.

You have chosen a career in the travel industry because you love travel. But as a woman traveler, you experience additional concerns: safety, independence, comfort, cultural shock and lack of privacy. You are looking for a way to balance these issues without giving up being an empowered woman, your own dreams and your ability to explore all that life can offer.

Tens of millions of women are traveling on their own every year, and travel companies that fail to recognize this growing trend leave themselves at a competitive disadvantage. But the industry is waking up to the fact that it must address its gender discrepancies and provide a safe environment for all travelers.

Christine is excited for today’s guest because she is a changemaker.

Prachi Thakur is a TEDx speaker and diversity trainer who focuses on building inclusive workspaces for women in the tourism and hospitality industry. Using training as her tool, Prachi has been actively working with tourism and hospitality staff in equipping them with inclusive skills and competencies.

She frequently engages with a global audience via different mediums, including lectures at international universities, podcasts, and articles. She is a sought-after speaker and has been invited to multiple international conferences including UNWTO’s Regional Conference on the Empowerment of Women in Tourism in Asia and the Pacific to share her views on women in the tourism industry.

An avid solo traveler who uses her multitude of experiences in her role as Diversity Strategist at World Women Tourism, Prachi aims to develop actionable strategies that help women advance in tourism and hospitality.

In this conversation, we talk about Prachi’s passion for bringing her research to life in the industry, the importance of bringing women into leadership roles and how important training is at all levels. Christine and Prachi also look at safety for female travelers from a systemic level.

This was a fun and passion filled conversation that Christine is excited to share with you.

Join us for this fun and soulful conversation with Prachi Thakur .

In this episode, Christine and Prachi discuss:

Who Prachi Thakur is in the travel industry and what she does today in the travel space
The moment that made Prachi doubt travel
Prachi’s passion for bringing her research to life in the industry
The importance of bringing women into leadership roles and how important training is at all levels
The safety of female travelers from a systemic level
World Women Tourism and the impact its making in travel

Resources & Links Mentioned in the Episode

To learn more about Prachi Thakur and World Women Tourism, head to www.worldwomentourism.com

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About the Soul Of Travel Podcast

Soul of Travel honors the passion and dedication of the people making a positive impact in tourism. In each episode, you’ll hear the story of women who are industry professionals and seasoned travelers and community leaders who know travel is more than a vacation. It is an opportunity for personal awareness and it is a vehicle for change. We are thought leaders, action takers, and heart-centered change makers.

The guests work in all sectors of the tourism industry. You'll hear from adventure-based community organizations, social impact businesses, travel photographers and videographers, tourism boards and destination marketing organizations, and transformational travel experts. They all honor the idea that travel is more than a vacation and focus on sustainable travel, eco-travel, community-based tourism, and intentional travel.

These conversations are meant to educate, inspire and create community. They are directed to new travelers and seasoned travelers, as well as industry professionals and those who are curious about a career in travel.

If you want to learn about new destinations, types of travel, or how to be more intentional or live life on purpose, join Christine Winebrenner Irick for soulful conversations with her community of fellow travelers exploring the heart, the mind, and the globe. These conversations highlight what tourism really means for the world.

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Credits. Christine Winebrenner Irick (Host, creator, editor.) Prachi Thakur (Guest). Original music by Clark Adams. Editing and production by Rayna Booth.

Transcript

KEYWORDS

people, travel, women, tourism, talking, diversity, industry, conversation, world, work, life, emotions, problem, share, research, meaningful, understanding

Christine Winebrenner Irick 00:08

Thank you for joining me for soulful conversations with my community of fellow travelers, exploring the heart, the mind and the globe. These conversations highlight what travel really means for the world. Soul of Travel honors the passion and dedication of the people making a positive impact in tourism. Each week, I'll be speaking to women who are tourism professionals, world travelers and leaders in their communities will explore how travel has changed them and how that has rippled out and inspired them to change the world. These conversations are as much about travel as they are about passion, and living life with purpose, chasing dreams, building businesses, and having the desire to make the world a better place. This is a community of people who no travel is more than a vacation. It is an opportunity for personal awareness, and it is a vehicle for change. We are thought leaders, action takers, and heart centered change makers I'm Christine Winebrenner Irick. And this is the Soul of Travel.

Prachi Thakur is a TEDx speaker and diversity trainer who focuses on building inclusive workplaces for women in the tourism and hospitality industry. Using her training as her tool, Prachi has been actively working with tourism and hospitality staff and equipping them with Inclusive skills and competencies. She frequently engages with a global audience via different mediums including lectures at international universities, podcasts and articles.

She is a sought after speaker and has been invited to multiple international conferences including UN WTO regional conference on the empowerment of women in tourism in Asia and the Pacific to share her views on women in the tourism industry. An avid solo traveler who uses her multitude of experiences in her role as diversity strategist at world women tourism, Prachi aims to develop actionable strategies that help women advance in the tourism and hospitality industry.

In our conversation, we talk about her passion for bringing her research to life in the industry. I may have called her the Brene Brown of DEI tourism research, you'll have to listen and see. We discussed the importance of bringing women into leadership roles and how important training is at all levels. We also look at safety for female travelers from a systemic level. This was a fun and passion filled conversation that I'm so excited to share with you. Join me now for my soulful conversation with Prachi Thakur.

Welcome to thought of travel I super excited and happy to be sitting down today with Prachi Thakur and she is a diversity strategist and with world women tourism, and today, we are going to get to really talk about a lot of things that I am passionate about with what else travel can be a catalyst for and using travel really as this vehicle for getting us into different spaces, which I think sounds kind of vague at this moment. But as we enroll a role through this conversation, I think you'll see what I'm talking about. So first off, just welcome. I'm so glad that you're here with me today.

03:56

Thank you so much, Christine, I really, really appreciate being here. The amount of conversation we have had is quite a few but quite meaningful. So I'm super, super delighted to be here.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 04:06

Thank you. I agree. I feel like our very first conversation was so good. We were connected through a past solo travel guest who just thought that we needed to connect. And I'm so grateful when that happens because it was very apparent right away that we have a lot of similar passions within the industry and what we feel can happen when we focus on this in this space of travel. So as I mentioned Prachi is a TEDx speaker, diversity trainer and she focuses on building inclusive workplaces for women in the tourism and hospitality industry. I would love you to take a moment and introduce yourself and share anything else that you want to talk about. Who you are in the space of travel right now and then we will go from there. Sure.

04:52

Thank you so much. So that's a very humbling introduction, by the way. And yes, so I'm a diversity researcher and trainer and this strategist. So it's all a lot of roles that I play at different times. But I'm primarily a researcher who brings research to training, because I believe that, you know, we can learn a lot of lessons from past, as well as you know, utilize them in, you know, modifying the future, because you know, I have this seat of my own, which I think I got from some confidence that what worked for your father won't work for you. So that's what I want to learn from what my father did wrong. And then I want to utilize it to make travel better for women. So that's what I do, and all of the different roles at different times correlate back to this special work that I want to change, shall we for women,

Christine Winebrenner Irick 05:43

I love that. And I'm sure this, I don't know if this will mean anything to you or not. But as you were speaking, I was like, Oh, that reminds me so much of how Brene Brown talks about research and how she brings it into, like practical experiences. And then as we were talking before, I'm like, oh, it's definitely like the same threads of conversation. So not to start out putting you on a pedestal, but just matching you to Brene. Brown, that's all.

06:11

And that's, that's a huge thing for me to be compared to her. You know, obviously, research and vulnerability and emotions is something unparalleled. So for me, just being on this pedestal is quite good. Thank you so much.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 06:26

You're welcome. I mean, I think for me it is with this specific focus on women and tourism, like it's just so much more relevant and meaningful for me. But I think it's really important how we look at research being something that's really vital to understanding our world. And I think for a long time, there's been a big disconnect between, like scientists and researchers, and how we apply that practically, I guess.

And so I really get excited about when people are the people that are bridging that gap. So well, as we begin to get to know you a little bit more, I would love for you to share about I know for most of us in the travel industry, there's been these moments where we've had powerful trips that either gave us a lot of opportunity for growth and awareness, or really became this point that shifted us into wanting to focus as tourism for our profession. So I'm wondering if you can share with us any of those sorts of meaningful travel experiences that really have gotten you to where you are today?

07:32

Sure, thank you. So I'd like to acknowledge that experience, you know, one experience which brought me in this industry. So for people who don't know me, I was an accounting student, I used to crunch numbers like day and night counting numbers. And I used to love that, honestly, I didn't have complaints from life. But then I said, I'm traveling. And obviously it was, you know, more what I wanted from travel was, I guess, one common thing which everyone wants to feel free, you know, to feel free from what this was also one of the few things which I shared on my Instagram, is that when we travel, we want to be free of expectations. We want to be free of our normal routine, we want to break free of a lot of other things, the basic element is being free.

So that's what I was seeking from the travel industry and traveling. But then one event was that, you know, when I was traveling in the city, and I have tattoos, like for people who don't have really small tattoos, but I do have them. So I was traveling, and this one evening I understood the delegate and the person who is on the receptionist. They remark Oh, okay, you're not coming back tonight, right? And I'm like, Why? Why won't I come back? And I'm very expressive, very. So my face talks out loud things, which I don't say out loud. So I was very confused and asked why. And then they told me something which hit me home.

They told you, it's your time of the day, what they meant to say that I was a sex worker, and evenings were my time. And I don't have any reason to believe that any other factor might have played a role in this because I was wearing very new clothing. And it wasn't as revealing which people do you know, factor when these kinds of remarks come? And I was like, having tattoos does that make me automatically a person who works for sex? Not that it is a degrading work. I do not look at sex work like that. But you know, you just judge someone you coin someone you, you know, change their identity based on something, which is you found that norm and that was like, Oh my god. That moment just changed how I look at travel. And I was like, Okay, maybe this is just me. because you know, as women, we are taught to doubt ourselves. We are the champions and doubting ourselves. But then I was like, Okay, no, let's, let's explore this a bit. And I started talking to other women. And turns out, it wasn't the case. People of all shapes, sizes, colors, designs, that rose colored hair plain and no hair, everyone was getting judged for something.

And I was like, Okay, we have a problem. And that is why, and that is how I came into this industry. Because for me, this was an experiment to see what we can do as a community, or I, as a researcher, and trainer, to change this problem we are facing, because obviously, we are not having good experiences, every single day, we are reading reports about women getting harassed women having complaints about travel. So there has to be something getting done to get rid of it. So that's my story of Wigan, and to travel and one meaningful, our, you know, transformation, which happened for me on travel. So that is one experience, which I think brought me in the industry. And we're good, I guess. Yeah.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 11:07

Thank you so much for sharing that such a powerful awareness to have had that became this question that you asked about that experience. And I'm reading right now beyond guilt trips by a doctor on a new turneffe. And she talks a lot about examining that sort of experience, right, exactly that, where's this discomfort coming? Where is this assumption coming from? What are these labels that are happening as we're traveling, she also definitely speaks to Dei. And that's a part of her work as well.

But that really reminded me of that is really not just, I guess, letting that be a one off experience. And assuming maybe that it was and putting it on yourself. But looking at it from this larger perspective, which you and I were just talking about, which I think is very much this researcher perspective, right. Like some of us can just internalize that experience and move forward versus looking at what is the systemic issue? What could we be addressing? How can I serve others in these similar situations? So I really love that you shared that. And it's very interesting, too, that you mentioned tattoos. I have a friend that we were talking to in a conversation and she was just talking about what she was packing.

And she's like, Oh, yes, I'm going to this place. And I need to make sure I can always have my tattoos covered. Because that really sets the tone that I'm not a respectful woman. And I had never really heard that. But now hearing that from two travelers, women that have traveled quite often, it's very interesting that those are things that we just don't always think about. And I think especially when we're talking about serving female travelers, it seems like these are really important to understand as well. I think it's always important to have a good understanding of the culture in which we're immersing ourselves so that we can maybe avoid or be mentally prepared for situations like that. But yes, thank you so much for sharing that and sharing how that set you out on this journey, I think this would be a really good place to talk about solo travel for women, I know this is something probably because of that experience that you're really passionate about. And again, looking at this from a more systemic level.

A lot of times when I've talked to women, and I know for you as well, you mentioned this in our previous conversation that one reason why women don't travel alone is because of their fear of being safe, and how they can address that so they can be more comfortable. But what have you seen or what are your ideas? And what conversations do you have around safety and solo travel for women?

13:56

So thank you so much for that question. And I, you know, possibly look at this problem of safety of women from a different perspective from across the table, I would like to say, because one thing we need to understand here is the idea of empowering women, which we have been building on for like 1520 centuries now. And the idea of empowered women, which I focus on people, women who are free, women who are earning, women who have options, women who want to explore options. So now we have this mix of women who are either transitioning or women who are empowered to travel solo, they have got tattoos like me, they're my you know, working in industries, unconventional industries, conventional industries, and women who identify as independent. Since it's a very subjective term, I'm not going to define what independence means for me, but people who think you know, women who think they are independent. So now we have these independent women traveling And then they are also concerned about safety. So now it's not the time to give them a list of seven travel tips you can use to say, No, I think we really, really, really need to move a step ahead and look at what we can do as an industry to make women feel safer.

Because yes, there are problems in the larger society that dark alleys don't go to dark alleys, don't go to a you know, wear revealing clothes to hide your tattoos. We have been listening to it for ages now. Now is the time that if your guest is not feeling safe inside the hotel, what are you doing about it? Because one of the research, you know, one of the reasons the authors one of the author's name is Joe gra Nam, some university in the US, I'm forgetting the name, but I'll pull it up soon later, they did a research to identify what was the problem, what was number one concern of business travelers, business women travelers. So now we are talking about women, travelers who are elite, right, women who, you know, are upper class travelers, let's not talk about the middle or the lower budget travelers, let's talk about the elite travelers. Number one reason they cited for the you know, the reason or the reason, the look for booking hotels, is the safety concern.

And that is just one more trigger to understand how big this problem is, that when people are paying a lot of money, even people are paying for having an elite experience. And still they are concerned about whether the door has 15,000 kinds of locks, or whether they have, like, women security guards, we have a problem. We have a problem. We don't know how to begin. It's as simple as that. When I began in this industry a few years ago, I used to try to kind of be very modest about the problems we have. But there is no other way to be honest. We don't know how to do it. It's as simple as that.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 17:05

Yeah, thank you. I really appreciate the bold stance because I agree that I think these topics are ones that have been put under the rug or uncomfortable again, it's like any any conversation that makes us uncomfortable, it's or we don't have an easy answer to or we have no answer to, it's just much easier to be like, well, let's just talk about these other things. And that's where that list comes from, right that safety list or whatever. But this is when you and I talked initially that I was just so excited to think about, Okay, how are hotels making women feel safe? How are restaurants? How are transportation surfaces? And I think it was questions I never really asked myself before, which I was really surprised about because this is something that I am already thinking about.

And if I'm someone who's already thinking about it, and I'm not asking these questions, then you know who is and so I just thought it really caught me off guard, it really actually got me fired up and a little bit excited because I thought, well, there's so much room for growth, there's so much room for understanding, if we are looking for signs that hotels, restaurants, transportation, etc. are, are creating a safer environment for women, what What would someone be looking for?

18:26

So there are top three things which I know, let's call it strategies, when these are very broad strategies, and definitely these have to be implemented, like step by step things or, you know, people will need time to absorb it. Because obviously, you know, going back to that, you know, statement, what worked for my father won't work for me. So we have been running hotels, on manuals, which date back to the 1870s. We better update the manuals. So the top three things. First thing is bring the most of the training in.

That's the first and foremost edition, which I give to people. And why I do that is that, you know, it'll bring a very short context here. I posted about this on LinkedIn Few days ago about how we have a hard problem. And we are like, Oh, it's not that big of an issue. A physician is also a doctor. So I think they can handle that. We are doing the literal same thing with hospitality and tourism. Because the diversity issue is not a training issue. It's an interdisciplinary issue. When you talk about emotions, when we talk about how to behave with other people we are talking about self reflection. So it's a very complicated area. You cannot have five modules on diversity and then give it to your trainer or your HR head and then we like we had that doesn't work that way. So bring diversity training because unless you want to get a heart attack, you better go to a cardiologist when you have an issue. It's as simple as that. And why I give the example of a cardiologist is because we have that serious problem, it's not to be treated lightly, especially given, you know, bringing some more perspective to diversity and how, why it is more important for Hospitality and Tourism.

Two years after the pandemic which we had, which was like a semicolon, a pause, and a full stop of all kinds of travel, people got time to reflect on themselves. And people came out in terms of identities in terms of, you know, belonging, and now the travelers you will have, after, you know, the pandemic has ended, are very different from the travelers who were traveling in 2090. These are very aware travelers, too much into sustainable society and how you are treating your employees, how you're treating your customers, and are looking for very meaningful experiences. Now, if your staff does not know how to interact with these people, depending on the identity, because maybe your staff wasn't trained on how to use pronouns, how to use, you know, address different programs, you are going to ruin their meaningful time, and you are going to have a conflict loss. So it's like a very long chain of events. But the first and foremost thing people need to do in Hospitality and Tourism is to bring diversity training, we need to have cardiologists rather than going to positions. So that is the first thing.

Second thing is being meaningful and effortful in their first year talking about diversity. And why I say that is I'll tell you one experience why I say that. A person from a very good famous tourism agency contacted me and they were like, Hi, Brad TV really wants to work with you. And we really want to make our organization more inclusive. And I was like, wow, cool, nice. And he was like, okay, so what is how we proceed? And I was like, okay, you know what, let's begin with two sessions, because I need to know your stuff first. Because I go on and preach them. I don't know how to preach. I don't have a list of like, 70 things, which I will tell you, and bam, you will be on refuse. It hasn't happened that way. And he was like, and I told him merits that, okay, you know what this, this is my code. And they're like, Okay, we'll get back to you.

Guess who didn't get back to me. Suppose you want to be inclusive, you want to treat your heart issues, but you're not ready to invest in a pacemaker. You really, really need to be meaningful about that. First you're talking. And then one other thing which I want to say that people saying about we want to be inclusive of who of who you want to be inclusive of women who want to have accessible travel, you want to talk about people with physical disability, people with mental disability, who you are talking about the rainbow spectrum we are talking about? I did, who do you want to include? Inclusion is a very big umbrella. So before you go out on searching cardiologists, you need to determine what problem you have. Because not everyone needs a pacemaker, some get read by blood pressure medicines, and they're good to go for life. So that is the second thing. The third thing which I recommend is the leadership to be invested in it.

23:20

Another problem, which I really, really come across, in talking to people is that people come to me as CEOs, and people are, you know, managers of hotels, and they're like, We need diversity training for employees. And I'm like, Oh, that's nice. Cool. What about you? Yeah, fine. You're not just, you're not. Because people think that it is a one man problem. And if I'm training the customer contact employee, I'm going to be all inclusive for all my life. It doesn't work that way, unless the Father knows what decision to take the sun and is not going to pick up. So we do need diversity training primarily for the customer contact employees. But what is not committed at the heart of the organization will definitely not stay for the long term. And one bonus to this in the prime three things are talked about. But Fourth thing which I want to emphasize is that people expect this to be a one time solution forever. It really doesn't work. It's like going to the gym for one day in a year and expecting to have summer bod for the whole year. It really doesn't matter because you're eating for the rest of the six more days, and you will have fat. So it's the same thing with inclusion. You cannot have one diversity training or one seven day workshop and you think that you're going to use it for all your life doesn't work that way. So these are my three prime tips. And one bonus tip for anyone in the industry who wants to be more meaningful, effective for inclusion.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 24:58

Hey, it's Christine. Interrupting this episode for just a quick minute to invite you to join me for my get wild in Glacier women's wilderness retreat. I'm so excited to share because last year when I partnered with my friend Becky rob from Trailblazer wellness, we brought women to the top of a fourteener in Colorado, and knew we had to do it again. This year, we're headed to Glacier Park in Montana.

I grew up in northwest Montana and cannot wait to share this treasured corner of the world with you. You'll get to get wild and reconnect with your inner child as you hike, bike, ride horseback and whitewater raft. Not only that, Becky and I spent three months with you preparing for this adventure and creating community. You'll be excited to meet in person and share this adventure with us during these three months. You'll get one-on -one coaching with Becky to prepare for the adventure as well as my Sunset and yoga sessions led by me, an education from other inspiring women about nutrition on the trail, and packing for adventure, as well as learning from local educators about nature and wildlife and indigenous communities. This is a unique experience that adds so much depth to your journey. Registration for this women's wilderness retreat closes on May 20. Our virtual coaching begins on June 6. Visit the Lotus sojourns website for more information.

I cannot wait to share my home with you. Now, let's hop back over to our soulful conversation.

Now let's hop back over to our soulful conversation.

Yeah, thank you so much. Again, I really appreciate just the straightforwardness with your approach. And I think, you know this, these conversations again, going back to like people just step away or like you said, kind of tried to address it as minimally and as quickly and maybe even as discreetly as possible. And I think what you're sharing and what I've seen through my own journey is that, you know, you read one thing, and you're like, Oh, here's 20 other things. And then you read the 20 other things, and you start to understand them about yourself and your life and how you interact. And then there's like 20 More things. And you're like, oh, I don't know if this is actually ever ending. So this idea that it's this one and done or like you said, here's the workbook, read it now we're fine. It definitely doesn't work that way. And I think, you know, obviously, just getting the conversation going is where you really do have to start because we don't even know the questions to ask. And still until we start picking away at it and uncovering it within ourselves, and then how that comes into our workplace. And I think it'll be really interesting to see.

And I would be curious, you know, maybe what experiences you have. But because this is such, it's a unique thing in the workplace where if you're normally talking about marketing, or budgets, or finances or inventory like this is all of your business, right? They all only relate to your business, that's not going to get tied up in your emotional baggage. But when you start talking about Dei, and you start looking at some of these things, you are going to be tapping into people's personal spaces, and they're not going to grow as employees or members of, you know, the service industry or leadership industry without taking this to a personal level. And so I'm wondering, what does that look like when people have that realization that it isn't just this like corporate, you know, policy, this is something that is actually a real personal issue that they're going to have to address.

28:53

That is a very interesting perspective brought in and thank you so much for that. I'd like to share one thing which happened in the last year, you know, when I was delivering I, for one of the Hospitality Management institutions in India. So I had designed a diversity course, which is the first of its kind. We don't have any diversity courses in India. So that's one thing, but I designed a diversity training course and I was delivering it and one of the modules Focused on emotional intelligence. So when the module began, I had the first question from you know, class, why are we talking about emotions? And that conversation went really insightfully. But one thing which I want to acknowledge here is that people chicken out, even chicken out when it comes to talking about emotions because see, where it all comes from, is that we are trained with an idea, we are fed with an idea that personal and professional life are different.

It all roots down to that idea, because you're not supposed to feel emotional at work. Why? Because emotions are part of your personal life. And guess where it belongs, it belongs in personal life. So that idea that we are fed with that, you know, the personal professional life is different is the one who challenges people's perspective towards addressing diversity because you cannot identify problems of biases of your own beliefs of what do you bring to the table, unless you talk about emotions, unless you know what you feel about it. Unless you know that, okay, maybe you know what it is uncomfortable.

Or maybe it should feel uncomfortable, or maybe talking about it makes you feel uncomfortable, these all are emotions, and you cannot have diversity training, without talking about how emotions play a role in it. And I think it's a matter of taking a conversation forward to understand that people come to work. It's as simple as that. So if people are walking in the workplace, you cannot have a different professional life, you cannot expect in 2022 that people will not bring their personal life to professional space. Why does that not mean that, okay, you know what, employees today come crying in the corner all day. But that also can mean that something is affecting an employee. And as a manager, as a person, you need to take that emotional empathy, you know, empathy out of that, okay, you know, what, why don't we talk about what's happening here. And I'll share one, one experience of one of the conversations I've had on a wide range of emotions.

So this lady I was talking to and she shared that in one of her internships, hospitality internships, she bent over to take a spoon from a drawer, and one of the senior staff smacked her back. And she was like, why does that seem like a very small issue. Oh, my God, it was just bad. You know, he just randomized it. But that lady at that time wasn't going to a lot of positive life events. So that one thing which was supposedly very, very small, in someone else's view, impacted the lady so badly, she took a really good time to recover from it. You know, these all issues come from why do we, you know, objectify women, why do we objectify women's body parts that you have to snack on every time people back down? So you cannot talk about diversity training and these very minute harassment things, it's minute. But it's an excellent thing, which happens without emotions, because you are affecting people's emotions, when you don't learn how to behave with people. It's as simple as that. I guess. I feel like

Christine Winebrenner Irick 32:41

Just the statement that people come to work feels so profound. And I don't know why. Because it should be so obvious. But I just think of how many times I've been in a job, where I felt like, I should be like a machine coming to work, right, I should be an employee at work, not a human at work, and, and we do have all of our life experiences that come with us. And then when they say, leave your work, at work in your home at home, you're like, well, it's really impossible to do those things. And especially, I think, if you're fortunate enough to start working in something that you are really deeply passionate about, it's coming from you, literally your work is my work. So I'm never separate from my work, which is what in fact, I think makes it more valuable is because we're learning how to work from this space of authenticity and passion. And so really embracing that human identity feels like a very important shift in the workplace, like you said, to even begin to address some of these larger issues.

33:53

That is true and that is when I really want to make one sentence you said we are expected to be employees at work. And employees are not supposed to have emotions. Employees are not supposed to have relationships. Employees are not people, they don't have lights, employees are there to get paid. And that's what mentality we bring everywhere but Hospitality and Tourism since I don't know whether you know the statistics, but it is the one industry which reports highest turnover in the world. According to 2019 data, every organization is losing $5,248 Every month, because someone else is leaving the employee, you know, organization, some employees are leaving. So when you talk about, you know, these issues, and when you look at the economic impact these small, sarcastically small things are bragging. It's very costly. You're paying $5,000 Because you didn't do diversity training. You're paying $5,000 Because you were cautious and Have what your employees are feeling. And I think that's pretty too much to pay for emotions. So it's high time that we start understanding that people are coming to work. So

Christine Winebrenner Irick 35:13

yeah, thank you, I really hope and I feel like people who are listening, that is something that will really resonate, because I don't think it is a way that we are taught to think and feel about work. And so I'm, I'm really excited about that little unwrapping that we just had there. I would love for you to share a little bit more now about world women tourism and how that came about and the work that you're doing there specifically,

35:41

thank you so much, we're going to do some love of my life. As simple as that. So we're gonna dualism is actually a network intelligence agency, we like to call ourselves a network intelligence platform. So this brings the idea that all women tourism started from the fact that only 2.3% of all the tourism leadership positions in the world are filled by women. Although in contrast, it is supposedly gender equal, because this is also the only industry in the world, which hires 54% of women in its workforce. So you see the contrast with 54% in the industry, but only 2.3% women in leadership positions. So this gap happens mainly due to factors, meaning factors, a lot of them, but one of the reasons which happened is because women are not connected enough. So we are fed with this competition, that if you win, I lose. If I win, that means the only way I win is that you shouldn't lose, you have to lose otherwise, I don't have a chance to win, which is not true. Definitely not true. So as a woman tourism, you as an organization, what we do is we connect women with other women in forms. And we also connect women with resources that they need in the form of training, education, webinars, seminars, all of them, to help them be a better leader. And so that's what we primarily do, we connect women with other women.

And we believe in the idea of flourishing together, because this whole bs of competition doesn't really hold true when it comes to winning as and you know, when we talk about, you know, me, and you both talk about sustainability a lot, right? If we have to create a sustainable future sustainable travel, we cannot have a win lose philosophy, we need to find a way we need to find ground where there is a win win philosophy. You know, in other words, earlier, when people used to talk about diversity issues and diversity initiatives and organization, they used to primarily count them under CSR activities, you know, corporate social responsibilities. But now, why is it an organization? I'm not saying all because I'm not doing that? Why is it that organizations do not, you know, completely marginalize diversity initiatives in CSR, because they know that diversity initiatives are very, very, very crucial for the bottom line as well. So that's where it comes from, you know, the when when philosophy. So we believe in philosophy so we connect women with other women, we connect with resources. So we do a lot of connecting events, we do a lot of training. And our special focus is on Asia. But yes, the world is our ground. So that's about what woman tourism is, and how it came about.

That's a fascinating journey. But I think, in one simple way, I would like to say that maybe it's about, you know, as we were saying, when work comes from you, you know, it's not something you choose, but it's something you hunt. And why I say hunt because it's something like the musk deer, you know, you have the smell, you want to run all around, but the smell is coming from you. So you're driven from some quest you haven't been, you know, within. So what woman tourism connecting with Nisha connected when Catherine was I think that must think. It was a very strong desire from me, which I didn't have any direction. But then the universe aligned and we got together like a short love story I have there.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 39:31

I love it. I love that you said this is the love of your life. And I just think about it too often when I am so lucky to talk to women in the space of travel. I feel like many of them feel that way about their businesses. And I think about what the world would look like if everybody felt that way about their work. Like it would just be so amazing if every person could do the thing that they're so passionate about without having to follow any sort of social norms. So far without any level of inequality, you know, creating levels of success or accessibility or availability, like if everyone could do the thing that made their heart the happiest. It just would be such a different place. And I feel so grateful to hear the stories of women who, who just said, Okay, I'm going to do this thing, this thing that I can't get away from, because it's literally chasing me from inside of me. And it's amazing just to see what happens when people say yes to that.

40:34

It's, honestly, an ideal world. Because sometimes, you know, it's, there are hurdles, which come in, there are days when I'm like, okay, not feeling so good about things, which I do, but then the light shows, and it will be definitely a very ideal world to live in, where people are following the passion. But till then, you know, till we achieve that ideal world where everyone is hunting for what they do, I just think, honestly, I don't know whether that is the sound philosophy. But yet at the risk of sounding philosophical, I think, people, whatever work they do, following passion, not following passion, I think they should, it should be the work they do should be aligned with their values.

Now what value they bring to the table is a completely personal thing. You don't always need to follow your passion, passion, to, you know, align your work with your values. But yes, I definitely, you know, coming back to the point that I am so blessed, I literally wake up every day, and there are very few days when I don't count my, you know, when I don't feel thankful for this opportunity I have in formable women tourism, because the impact we create right now, and the impact we are creating in the future, which will be visible everywhere. is just magnificent. It's surreal. It's surreal. Yeah.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 41:58

Thank you. And I also I really love what you said about even if you're not following your passion, if you're working aligned with your values, which I think a lot of people when they think about, okay, you know, I've heard people say, find your passion, follow your passion, do what you're passionate about. And some people are like, I just don't know what that is. Okay, that's fair, because sometimes it takes a little while before that spark ignites, but you do know your values, or you should take time to examine them. When I work with people, I always say like, the very first thing you should do is know what your values are. And people are always like, Oh, I know my values. Okay, well, what are your values and, you know, it turns out, it's really hard to put into words and into language. So then, if you're trying to match something up to find if it is in alignment with your values, and you haven't written them down, you don't have a like checklist to put them up against, right.

So I love that, that idea of just making sure or being reminded of how important that is. And again, like what you're what you're creating, if you're at least working from that space, you are going to feel more fulfilled and feel like you are having a larger impact. And again, this doesn't have to be it doesn't mean you have to be doing something grandiose like my great grandmother was a passionate Baker. And you know, I have, you know, people that are passionate teachers, people who are passionate about every type of career, every type of labor working like building carpentry, leather working, like, we all have these things within us. It doesn't mean it has to be that you just have to, your passion should be being some I don't know, lawyer or something that's noble, I guess, like, everything, everything is really valuable and great. Anyway, I did want to ask world women, tourism is your community, regional or global community? What are the women that you're serving? And if people are interested in the work you're doing, who are the right women to be connecting with you?

44:09

Oh, thank you so much. So we primarily focus on Asia, because, you know, three of the founders are from Asia, Nisha Katherine, and me. I wasn't found when I came later, but I do count myself as an integral part of that. But yes, since we are Asian and Asian values are more challenging for women to, you know, build, grow up and organization and to see that, you know, I had a koala who is the founder of OptiMind. partners. We recently had a panel discussion on seeds, which was hosted by ADB. She said a word which I want to borrow from her. It's not the glass ceiling. It's a concrete ceiling that we are dealing with.

Especially in Asia, what happens is that there is a lot of cultural mix, which is coming to, you know, women's life, which expects them to be the primary caregiver. And if I am even less inclined towards having babies, or maybe being a mother or the, you know, primary daughter wife kind of roles, I am not a good one. It's as simple as that. It's not too complicated. Misha, it's very simple. You're either a good woman, if you become a mother, wife, daughter, and bla bla bla, or you're not, you cannot be both. So when it comes to Asia, it's you know, the cultural values get complicated a lot, a lot, and then mix it with the age, the gender, and not the gender, age and religion, you get a very dangerous content. It was n't really working for them. So our primary focus is on, you know, Asian women. But we do work on a global level and deal with a lot of other sections in the world. Also, because Nisha and Catherine, both have been traveling and interacting and living in a lot of countries. So they kind of know the struggle women have in the travel and tourism industry in different countries. So we do bring our own intersectionalities to the table while coaching and training.

So the world playground, and if people want to reach out to us, the best way is to drop me an email at Prachi you know, at the red world, women tourism.com. Or they can simply, you know, go on our website, where women tourism.com, where they'll find contact me contact Nisha, or contact Katherine, and we all are super responsive, super social media people. And, you know, they all can also search us on LinkedIn, and Instagram. And any of us can be a good connecting point.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 46:50

Yeah, thank you. I really love that you mentioned the focus that you have. And I think this is something else that we talked about is, you know, when you talk about what diversity or what your strategies are in Asia, and then someone asks you to translate that program to the US how different those are, and I think that we again, we kind of think there's going to be this blanket handbook, and that we're gonna really have to look at this globally, but then regionally and very specific, like you've said, even within different countries, in Asia or in different religions, and different, you know, there's going to be all these different layers that we have to look at.

And like you said that intersectionality is going to be so important to unraveling this, it can't be this one size fits all solution that would be so amazing if it could be, but I also think there's something in that process. That is, is the growth process, like us understanding what it means to me, to me and you, to me in this small group, like, as we uncover that we are really going to be growing and learning and understanding and while I think this has been buried under the rug of uncomfortable, it's going to be this thing that really accelerates us forward as aware people.

48:25

Oh, true, that is true. And you know, that is one point which I brought and I want to pick on one of the things you mentioned is about the problems of blight having blanket issues is that you know, when specifically since I am a diversity researcher, especially on diversity training, they will say training has been around since 1800s You know, in one form or the other, but 99% Or even ideas 100% of the work has been in western corporate sectors. So, we are not talking about travel and hospitality at all first thing and then there is no work done in Asia. So, when we are talking about diversity issues in Asia, it is very like the national issues are different from obviously, you know, India's issue will be different from Naples issue, you know, although we both are like little neighbors, but even within India we host so many regional diversities, we have clothing difference, we have language differences, we have caste difference, we have dominating languages we have dominating religion. So, you simply cannot have blanket, you know, training or coaching or leadership programs, which work for women in the West coming to you know, women in East women in Asia, you cannot have that. And if you're attempting to modify some work and then again do the physician thing. Well, Lord, save you.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 49:57

Thank you, I just really appreciate that and again, just an opportunity for, like an aha moment and understanding of seeing, maybe something we hadn't hadn't thought about before. And I just, for me, that's what I live for, I love to be proved wrong or prove that I don't know something. Because again, it just means like, Oh, now I have this new, new way of understanding something. So I guess I'm maybe more comfortable with those things that people normally try to shy away from. But I really appreciate that. So the last thing that I wanted to spend a few moments talking about was another one of my favorite conversations that we meandered through when we talked before, but we both really love to travel. And we really see travel as this vehicle for understanding and change and creating these shifts in our worlds. And we talked about how we got into trouble with each other.

And then we were talking and I heard other people talk, telling kind of a similar story of like, okay, I love to travel, I see you are working and traveling, how do I do that, like, I just want to go here, here, here and here. And here. So I want to work in travel. And like one of my very first things is like Well, as soon as you start working in travel, you're gonna find you're actually not gonna be traveling because you're planning travel or you're, you know, you're doing all these other things that support travel, you might be traveling as much fair to say you won't be but there's this idea that be working and travel means you will travel. And so there's that kind of, I guess, myth to bust or whatever.

But I think what both you and I really would love is shifting the narrative to allowing travel to be this greater, this greater area, where instead of people saying I love to travel, I want to work in the industry, they would say, I really want a job where I can create an impact. I want to be able to support cultural preservation, I want to impact our local and global economy. I want to work in conservation, I want to work in protecting the environment, what can I do? And then travel is the answer to those questions. So without saying any more like I just want I would love to hear what that brings up for you.

52:30

That is such a profound thing to actually begin talking about so there is this researcher named Strayer again the boys. I hope I'm pronouncing her name right. She has you know, written a lot of work here and again with articles on how travel is you know, impactful and everything but one sentence from her one of the research paper has stuck with me and I use it and quote unquote it in a lot of different works I do is that travel is a social force tourism is a social force. So it's not just you, you know you dress up and you have fancy hats and bars and you are like oh my god let's go to travel as an industry is so much more than that.

And the idea of how wide this industry is should come from the fact that you know, you know another you know taking a step back and reflecting when people asked me that you know, what is diversity training or what is the significance of everything and like okay you know, what, you might have come across people who work with same kind of people who grew up in the same environment who had every time they may be a you know, their man they identify as a man they studied in a middle school in an all boys school, they went to a all male office, whichever that offices, but whatever. But do you know a person on planet earth who does not travel? No, you don't travel, no matter how small the travel is and the moment they leave their home, they are making an impact in a good or a bad one.

Because we meet people on travel, we are leaving imprints on. We are you know the way while we travel, we are interacting with the environment. We are leaving our impact there, we are leaving an imprint there. We are interacting with you know other people in social events, we are leaving our imprint on other people. So tourism and hospitality is the only industry which has so many touch points. And that's also making it so dangerous. Because if people are, you know, not conscious, they are going to leave negative imprints everywhere. And why I'm saying you know, especially about negative imprints, is because there is this idea that you don't need effort to grow weed. You need first to grow plants. If you don't do anything on a plan, you know, a land that will grow. And that's what happens when we travel. And we don't do conscious travel. If we are not making a good impact, it's not greenbacks happening. It's a bad impact. It's as simple as that.

So that's it for me that when people come to this industry, they come with a larger awareness that this industry is yes, it's fancy, it allows us to travel. But as a researcher, I'm a travel researcher, I travel a lot. But it's not as it appears that Oh, my God, I'm going to be on the road for 365 days. I know, it doesn't happen like that. This industry is so big. And we have so many opportunities to make an imprint on the environment, on people, on cultures, on food, on dresses, everywhere, we are leaving an impact, or we are taking someone else's imprint. And why come into this industry, if people are just mindful of that imprint, they're leaving, I think they are going to be seeing this industry very much differently.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 55:59

So good, I am just like, so full from this conversation, I really appreciate it. I feel like we could probably go on for so much longer. But I really, really appreciate all that you've shared. I love your perspective and the way you look at things that really speaks to my heart. And so I'm really glad that we got to dive into some of these takut topics. I hope that when people listen, reach out and share, like any moments that you had with either of us, I know. We'll be excited to hear from you. Before we end, I know you already mentioned how they can connect with world women tourism and learn more. I wanted to just to give you space really quickly, you mentioned before we hopped on that you have them working with UN WTO on a recent project. And just for people that might want to follow up, can you let them know what that is and where they can find it.