Episode 177 - Dee Gibson, Kalukanda House
In this episode of Soul of Travel, Season 5: Women's Wisdom + Mindful Travel, presented by @journeywoman_original, Christine hosts a special unscripted soulful conversation with Dee Gibson.
Dee is an award-winning British Sri Lankan designer and hotelier. She built Kalukanda House in 2017 to reconnect with her heritage. Dee has a vision to create space for women to use their voices. She believes that there is a wealth of talent and dynamism in Sri Lanka and that we should reframe the way we see the island. She runs events in Sri Lanka and the UK, where she lives, to inspire and empower female entrepreneurs. Kalukanda House has been listed in Conde Nast's Best Places to Visit in 2024, being noted for its retreats and female empowerment initiatives. She is proud and excited to announce Hera Project X Island Immersion, an innovative venture set to redefine the landscape of retreat experiences. Scheduled for June 2024, this groundbreaking retreat is tailor-made for creative women seeking inspiration, connection, and personal growth in a dynamic setting like no other.
Dee is on a mission to change the narrative surrounding Sri Lanka, focusing on wellness, art, culture, community, and the role and power of women to make change.
Traveling or Touristing
Christine and Dee discuss the sense of momentum and moving forward that accompanies global women’s empowerment, and how that shows up in the travel industry.
“We have the power to enable people to tell their stories; it’s a two-way street.”
Entering into travel with a mindset of exchange, rather than one central to just our own experience, opens each of us to true connection.
“It’s a really human experience. Traveling is about people. It is about landscapes and getting away–but it is about people. I think we forget that sometimes.
Artisans and Artists
Christine and Dee investigate the language and approach around traveling and visiting ‘artisans’ or looking at ‘handicrafts.’ The language we use dictates the narrative that may wash over the idea that local artists are valued, not seen as someone to be helped.
In the west, says Dee, we often associate the word ‘craft’ with many levels of creating–from a craft that may be done at school with popsicle sticks to a practice that has been passed down through generations. Dee uses the term ‘heritage crafts’ to describe those practices that are thoughtfully preserved.
Hera Project X
Dee has always been focused on creating a commercial enterprise with social good, and supporting women and girls have always been close to her heart. During the pain and inability to travel during lockdown, Dee put her energy into looking for ways to encourage people to stay connected to Sri Lanka through the people who visited or the people who are there in the local community.
She began connecting with amazing women – “I started to see Sri Lanka in a different way.” Meeting and talking with the people who have created and innovated change through their social impact business inspired Dee to expand these efforts.
“I felt like I brought two halves together…and we launched the new space.” After making some landscape adjustments and renovating a building, Hera Project X had a place.
The launch was a 100% Sri Lankan female stage and creators-in-residency event. Folks from photography, travel, art, and more–all women with established businesses in Sri Lanka–were present in an incredibly uplifting gathering.
Named to represent global women with the image of a goddess, Hera Project X was formed.
“We as women are designed to be nurturers…but you can also fight for your rights,” says Dee.
With the majority of the news from Sri Lanka concerning political strife, nature, or elephants, this is an entirely new set of stories that have been untold for far too long.
Dee’s June 2024 Hera Project X retreat is for women who are leaders in creative industries to come and be part of a cultural exchange to meet with and get to know their Sri Lankan counterparts. She wants people to end their journeys saying, “I’ve made friends–I wasn’t even looking for new friends. And now I’m going to travel in a different way.”
“It’s a really human experience. Traveling is about people. It is about landscapes and getting away–but it is about people. I think we forget that sometimes.”
Soul of Travel Episode 177 At a Glance
In this conversation, Christine and Dee discuss:
Join Christine now for this soulful conversation with Dee Gibson.
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Related UN Sustainable Development Goals
Sustainable Development Goal #1: End poverty in all its forms everywhere.
Sustainable Development Goal #3: Ensure healthy lives and promote well-being for all at all ages.
Sustainable Development Goal #4: Ensure inclusive and equitable quality education and promote lifelong learning opportunities for all.
Sustainable Development Goal #5: Achieve gender equality and empower all women and girls.
Sustainable Development Goal #9: Build resilient infrastructure, promote inclusive and sustainable industrialization and foster innovation.
Sustainable Development Goal #10: Reduce inequality within and among countries.
Sustainable Development Goal #16: Promote peaceful and inclusive societies for sustainable development, provide access to justice for all and build effective, accountable and inclusive institutions at all levels.
Sustainable Development Goal #17: Strengthen the means of implementation and revitalize the Global Partnership for Sustainable Development.
Resources & Links Mentioned in the Episode
Reserve your spot in the HERA Project X Retreat scheduled for June 2024 here.
Read about HERA Project X in this Hip Hotels Article and in the Sri Lanka Daily Mirror.
Connect with Dee on social media: HERA Project X Instagram / Kalukanda House Instagram / Dee’s Instagram / Dee’s LinkedIn
Learn more about Kalukanda House.
About the Soul Of Travel Podcast
Soul of Travel honors the passion and dedication of people making a positive impact in the tourism industry. In each episode, you’ll hear the stories of women who are industry professionals, seasoned travelers, and community leaders. Our expert guests represent social impact organizations, adventure-based community organizations, travel photography and videography, and entrepreneurs who know that travel is an opportunity for personal awareness and a vehicle for global change.
Join us to become a more educated and intentional traveler as you learn about new destinations, sustainable and regenerative travel, and community-based tourism. Industry professionals and those curious about a career in travel will also find value and purpose in our conversations.
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Soul of Travel Episode 177 Transcript
Women’s travel, transformational travel, sustainable travel, women leaders in travel, social entrepreneurship
Christine: [00:00:00] Welcome to Soul of Travel podcast. Today is going to be a fun episode. This is kind of I'm going to call it unscripted, which I have been wanting to do some unscripted episodes and, and then I just never did. And then today I decided this is kind of the perfect conversation.
For that. So before we get going, I just I'm going to do a quick overview of this conversation and what led us to this point. But I recently chatted with D. Gibson, who you see here joining me. And she was telling me about her new her Project X, which I was so excited about. So we jumped on to have this conversation that she was just sharing with me because I was following her on LinkedIn and wouldn't leave her alone because I'm obsessed with what she's creating.
And to brainstorm and get curious about like, what else is possible with, with with this project where you're at and what you envision long term. And so we had such a great conversation that I said, [00:01:00] okay, we have to come on the podcast and talk about this one. I want more people to hear about it too.
This is a really fun conversation that I think is valuable. For a wider audience. So that's kind of setting the stage to what we are. I'm going to chat about D has been on the podcast before. So if you want even more background, I'll link her episode in the show notes. So you can go back and listen to that.
But all that said, welcome to the podcast Dee.
Dee: Christine. I'm very excited to be back. I don't know how it feels since our last conversation, but
Christine: It's been a while. I didn't look again. We're unscripted. I know nothing. We're just going for it. No I just forgot to look up to see, but it's been a bit, it's been a bit of time. Since we, we first talked and we've been so lucky to kind of, since then be connected virtually, we were able to meet last year in June in London at the IWTTF event which was great.
So I'm I'm really grateful. I'm just, [00:02:00] this is one of the examples for me of where this podcast brings my, like, dream life to reality, and I get to be connected with people like yourself and, like, just champion your efforts and be a part of something that I think is really important. right now in our world.
So I'm, I'm just so grateful for our connection.
Dee: Me too, I really, really am. I have to just thank you for everything that you do. I mean, the interviews that you do, you're so authentic and generous in the way you support everyone and the causes that, you know, speak to your heart. So, thank you. Thank you for inviting me back.
Christine: Thank you. Well, for our listeners who haven't heard the last episode, can you quickly just give us an overview of who you are and the work that you do?
Dee: Mm-Hmm. . Thank you. I'm so my name is Dee Gibson. And I am a London based designer, but I am actually the, the, the thing that's taken over my life is my hotel in Sri [00:03:00] Lanka. So for 20 years I had a life in design and in 2016 I bought a plot of land whilst I was on holiday in Sri Lanka with my family.
I am a British Sri Lankan. I lived there when I was little and we went on a holiday so I could just. Reconnect with heritage and, you know, show the kids where they came from fell in love with, well, I was always in love with Sri Lanka, but we all kind of really felt a connection and it was, it was not much of the excuse that I needed to then say, Let's put down some roots.
And initially the idea literally was that, just to put down some roots and give us an excuse to go back. Anyway. Six years later, seven years later, I cannot believe it. I built Kulakanda House from scratch. It is a boutique hotel on the south coast of Sri Lanka. And we've, since our last conversation, gone on.
I think the last time we spoke I was talking about some of the social impact initiatives that we have in place. And we've really gone on from there, which of course we'll talk about more today. And I've [00:04:00] really kind of got into the heart of something that's very close to my heart, which is female empowerment, education and And also shining a light on Sri Lankan women it's something that is not done.
I want to change the narrative around Sri Lanka. So each year I come up with these harebrained ideas of the next thing that I want to do. But actually, I think, you know, it's been a very organic journey to now. And a lot of it is driven by the things that I see. So rather than kind of coming up with these kind of schemes from my head, it's always a reaction to something that I see that is lacking that I think needs to be redressed.
Christine: Yeah.
Dee: small part that I can play in that.
Christine: Yeah, I love it. And I can't wait to talk more about it. And this was kind of where I was on fire after our conversation that we had. And you know, you were talking about your mission to really like change the [00:05:00] narrative surrounding Sri Lanka, which is huge, right? Not a, not a small mission, but like, but something that you're really already doing for people.
And then also focusing on wellness and art and culture and community. And then, like you said, all kind of bringing that together while working towards female empowerment. And so for me, this just is such a beautiful example of are always asking how tourism can have a positive impact or how travel can have a more positive impact or how we can connect to the pieces.
Of place and travel together and not have travelers coming without experiencing a deeper level of connection to place. You know, a lot of tourism tends to be kind of surface level for so many reasons, and I think people now want that deeper level and. [00:06:00] People working in tourism like you have seen like, we're like, okay, I've witnessed this. I know there's something I can do about that. And I already kind of have this in place. And if I add this element, all of a sudden we're chipping away at this thing that I notice could be I don't want to say that it's bad, but it could be changed, right? Like there's social structures that can be influenced by what we're creating.
And I think that's what I really love about what you're doing. And one of the things that you said to me that I think really struck you was this experience about. One of the people that came and you've, you've done. Let's back up. I'm so excited. I can't even keep my thing, my, my mind straight. Like I'm like, Oh, I want to talk about this and about this and about this.
Okay. Let's talk a little bit first. So you introduced your property. You kind of told us where that came from and then this. [00:07:00] Next iteration or this next project is her a project X. So can you talk to me about what sparked that idea and your initial vision and then kind of how that's tracking now.
Dee: Yeah, sure. So I've always been from, from the get go, I wanted to run a sort of circular economy with my business. So obviously it's a commercial enterprise, but I really wanted to make sure that we were giving back to the local community. I've always been. Something that's been close to my heart is supporting women and girls, as I said before.
So what happened was during lockdown through all of the pain of that and the, you know, inability to travel and all of the rules and regulations and in between the moments when I thought I'm going to throw in the towel because it was really, it was really hard for all of us. I was trying to find, I guess I was trying to keep myself busy.
You know, how do you keep people interested in Sri Lanka and entertained when they're at home between cooking sourdough bread and doing, you know, online quizzes, you know, [00:08:00] you have to stay relevant as a business. And so I was looking for other things that I could talk about and I started to connect with people.
I, I've always been interested in people. So I was looking for stories that I could tell of people who'd either been to Sri Lanka and had a transformational life change, because I do think it's that kind of place, I mean it happened to me but also people in the local community. So during that sort of, I mean it ended up being four years, what was one thing and another for, for Sri Lanka I started to connect with amazing women.
And I set up an editorial on our website and I start to be honest, I saw Sri Lanka in a different way again. I mean, I visit regularly. I'm very lucky. I have an opportunity to go three to four times a year for the business. But now, I'm going back, having met all of these incredible people online and meeting them in real life.
And talking to people who have [00:09:00] businesses that are not only interesting to me, because I find people interesting, but they're also, they've got a social impact side to their business. But they're innovating change, Christine. I mean, they're doing these amazing things. So last year we had the opportunity to expand.
And I've always been a little bit crazy. I mean, talk about flying in the face of good sense after everything that had happened. But it was kind of, it was something that I'd wanted to do since we bought our plot. And honestly, I felt, I feel like I brought two halves together. In terms of, you know buying this plot of land next door.
Begged, borrowed, stealed. And And then we launched the new space, which is essentially what all we did really was we worked with the landscaping, because there's something very energetically special about Kulakanda House, the land it sits on. So we just did a little bit of landscaping. I didn't take anything away.
We had a building that was already there. I've renovated it [00:10:00] and transformed it into a beautiful Yogashala and an event space. But rather than launching it through a retreat, which would involve closing our doors so that people couldn't come in, I decided to then go back to all of these amazing people that I'd met.
And I said, let's have a creatives in residency. I wanted to do something different, you know, it's a, it's a small business. I'm pretty much a new kid on the block. And I want, I've always liked doing things a little bit differently. And I said, look, Let's do a creatives in residency. It's something that I would like to see if I was traveling and some of these kind of entrepreneurs came down and for a week they stayed and We had the most incredible program.
Actually, it wasn't a week It was three days, but we had some things going on either side three days of workshops and panel debates and you know Interaction between audience. We were telling selling tickets [00:11:00] to local expats, local travelers, tourists, anyone who wants to come and listen. But it was a 100 percent Sri Lankan female stage.
What was really interesting was that, I mean, we, you know, in November, we had People in the textile industry, architecture, art, travel, photography, all women with established businesses. And during these three days where we had some incredible interactions and people were coming to listen, we're really kind of filled up with this amazing kind of uplifting, Wow, I didn't know these people were here.
In our private time, the creative said this has never been done before. Wow. This has never been done before where we have had the stage. I said, you're kidding. And they said, no, you know, we get invited along. We might be kind of token women. Obviously that's something that goes on around the world, but they've never been to [00:12:00] in a situation where it's just been Sri Lankan women on the stage, which really shocked me.
I mean, I live in London and women's events are, We're very, very lucky. So anyway, I said, right, we're going to do this again. Now what Hera Project X is about, and we named it that because I wanted to have a name that would represent I didn't want to have a Sri Lankan name, I didn't want it to be lost in a sea of Sri Lankan names and not really to be understood what it was all about.
I wanted to have a goddess, why not? Because we're all goddesses. And Hera popped into my mind. Now Hera was Zeus wife. She is the goddess of motherhood and family. She was a ball breaker. Zeus was Zeus, off doing his godly things, according to all the legends. She had to put up with a lot, but she didn't really put up with it.
You know, she fought her corner, she fought for her family, and [00:13:00] she really wanted to stand up for her rights, which I thought was a very apt name. Because, you know, I do believe with, with women's empowerment, we, we as women are designed to be nurturers. So we have that sort of nurturing instinct, whether you end up being a mother or not, most women have a nurturing instinct to them, but doesn't, these two things are not mutually exclusive, you can also fight for your rights.
So I thought she was very apt name, Project X for women. What I want to do now is, build on what we did in November. So here are project X is all about putting Sri Lankan creative female entrepreneurs on the stage in the spotlight. I mean, these women are doing amazing things. We've got people who are doing things that are not only groundbreaking at country level, but internationally, I mean, using blockchain technology technology to make sure that there's fair trade and equity.[00:14:00]
In the supply chain for salaries and all of this kind of stuff, you know, we've got people who are trained psychologists Who are using their skills in mental health along with their creative skills. They're creating beautiful Pieces of jewelry, for example, that end up on catwalks, but also giving back to the community through workshops and through wellness, health and wellness spaces.
And these things aren't talked about. And one of the things that I noticed sitting here in London is that the news that we read about in Sri Lanka is either about the landscape and the elephants or political strife. There's nothing about the people. And we know that when we travel Of course you can have a beautiful time just kind of holed up with your family or your loved ones and not really talking to locals.
But the best travel experiences we know are the ones where we interact with community. But the only stories that we hear about community in Sri [00:15:00] Lanka are just Lovely smiling faces, kind people, very welcoming. All of that is true. But what we don't hear about is this very dynamic layer of society who are innovating, perfectly capable of supporting themselves. But no one talks about that. And I think on a sort of bigger macro level, I'm not an economist, I'm not interested in politics, but it struck me that maybe these narratives that are exported about Sri Lanka. Actually, I'm going to stand corrected. They're not exported about Sri Lanka.
They are written about Sri Lanka from the outside in. Talks about a country that had a past, which was rich in culture, rich in colonization, you know, all of that kind of stuff, but doesn't talk about where they stand right now. And I [00:16:00] think that that's quite dangerous because not only does it give people on the outside the wrong idea about a country, I actually think it attracts the wrong kind of investment, if any investment at all.
Sri Lanka is perfectly capable of standing on its own two feet. But it needs to have the respect given to it to do that, but the only way that's going to happen is if we showcase the actual people and what they're doing. So listen, that sounds really grand, I'm not interested in all that stuff, I'm just trying to do my little bit because as a female fan of myself and as a Sri Lankan, I think I can do something to, to showcase the people that I get excited to discover and there's more coming.
Yes.
Christine: I love that. A few of the things that you just mentioned as you were speaking, well, 1, I had to write down, showcasing from the outside in. I think this is a huge. I'll just, I guess, problem. It's a huge [00:17:00] problem in the industry where then the stories and the depiction and the marketing and everything comes from the outside in, right?
Very, very often it is packaged and commercialized. It isn't. From, from an industry standpoint, but also from a media standpoint in general, when, when you're looking at storytelling of any place, it's very rarely storytelling done by people in the place, whether it's the story coming to you from the news or, an article, et cetera. I think it's something that people are much more conscious of now. Like this is something we've, we've realized has been the case. It's a part of, you know, of colonizing mentality. This is something that people are starting to say, isn't equitable. It isn't in the benefit of, the business or the place that we're working in because we're not telling a true story and travelers are savvy enough now to kind [00:18:00] of like peek behind the curtain, you know, to say, this isn't true.
What you sold me isn't true. And maybe not to the fault of, of your own, like in the past, this might've been the experience we wanted, but now people. are more curious, I think, are, are more, more willing, more open. I'm not sure what the shift has been, but people want to see the truth. And I think they also want to connect, like you said, again, this, this surface experience is great sometimes, like we need that In our, in our travels sometimes.
But when you get to have the experience like you are talking about, then you walk away a different person. You walk away not a different person, but you have a different perspective. You just experience something in such a different way that [00:19:00] then you also kind of become a part of the fabric of change.
So while, while you, while you are saying, you know, what you're doing is simple and small, it is, and it isn't because it's the, it's the foundation for what you're wishing for on a grander scale. And so that idea of outside in and shifting that is huge. And I feel like that's really what you're doing, right?
Like you're, Like those women shared with you, like we have not had the stage. It's shamefully true. And there's so many reasons why women haven't had the stage in many different places and why foreigners haven't engaged with women holding the microphone when they travel, which for me, when I created my company.
That's all I wanted to do. I'm like, where do I find the women I can speak to in this country and [00:20:00] give them the microphone so that the women I brought with me can hear their story so they can connect as equals and then they can look at this story. greater vision and say, how do we get there together?
Can we support one another? Do you just need me to listen and hold space for you so that your voice can just like billow? Or do I need to give you something that, you know, ignites the next fire? Like, but in a very equal way, not in a, I'm here to save you. So I let you speak about your problem way, but like, You are already powerful.
You are already changing the world in your own way, which is why I love how you speak about what these women are already doing. Just more people need to hear you. That's all.
Dee: Yeah, and I think, I, I completely agree and you put that so eloquently. One thing I would say is I, I [00:21:00] do think people change suitable and I think that's a good thing. You know, I, I, I, because I think that I also do think that we need to travel and just, you know,
I'm saying that we can do both at the same time. You can have a travel experience. If people are going to take, spend the money, and spend the time, going all the way across the world to somewhere like Sri Lanka it is possible to just do both. lie on a sunbed looking at the Indian Ocean with your favorite book and at the same time earlier on that day or later on that day or whatever or tomorrow or yesterday you went out and you met these incredible people you had a conversation you saw what they were doing and you come back for it.
So I do think it's absolutely about the fabric of change. I Also think that there is something very beautiful about going back to traveling in this way. Social media has changed so much for us. [00:22:00] It's kind of a two headed beast really, isn't it? There's so much of it that's good because it connects us to people.
You know, if people don't have the ability to travel, we can see other landscapes and be inspired through that way. But I think the flip side of that is this kind of follower mentality. You know, everyone's got to get on the train and take the photo, leaning backwards with your boyfriend straddling you, that kind of thing, as you're going around the, you know, the the bridge, and all of those things are just, ugh, come on.
You know, there's so much more that you can do in terms of meeting people along the way, and I think, I think that social media has made us lazy. in terms of how we write about things, how we communicate about things, because it's all about the picture, but pictures need words and emotions and reality behind them.[00:23:00]
Christine: Yeah. They need the context or, or it's, it's really, it's really irrelevant. Like, well, I mean, there is an emotional stirring, right? A great photograph can have that. But I think We've gotten so used to, again, just like this quick digestion of, of stimulus and of, of image and word. And I know for me, that's always hard.
It's actually been the bane of my existence trying to market anything I do because. As you know, from speaking with me, like nothing gets said quickly. I'm like, let's take our time to paint this picture and dive in. And when I tried to do that on Instagram, I'm like, well, here's my picture and then here's like the novel I wrote that goes with it.
And I hope somebody reads it because the end of the day. It's really important, but you also know, like, it's not the format for that. And I think it's also important because we need that story and we need, we need to share that. And I do think that's what resonated [00:24:00] with me so much about what you're doing is because this is such a beautiful exchange of story, of the women's story, the story of culture, the story of art, the story of change.
Like. we need time to sit and connect and share our stories and it's, I and I've talked with other other guests about this as well. I think, you know, Chantelle pot heater. She's part of. Yeah. So we had a great conversation about this as well. But the value it is in hearing the story, but it's also.
Equally valuable in telling the story and the way that we feel when our story is received and and how empowering that is because sometimes we disappear and we feel really passionate about something or really proud about our art or culture or food or whatever But when it's when we don't get to share it and it's not witnessed, it doesn't feel like it has value.
And because [00:25:00] of the hustle and bustle of our world today, we often don't pause. for that witnessing. And so I think, again, this is so important. This, this gathering, I think, especially for women is just this container where inherently amplification happens.
Dee: I completely agree and I, and I also think the exchange bit is really important about, you know, the storytelling. If you spend time with someone, it's not just about hearing about their life and, you know, their day to day and what it's like and their skills and, you know, family, but it's also telling them about your life.
You know, we, we fly home, we travel somewhere, we fly home, we have these great conversations and we're not going to be forgotten by those people. So we're kind of, it is traveling in the true sense of the word, rather than touristing, [00:26:00] which is, let's go and see how these other people across the world live and just, you know, sit in our, behind a sort of window and not engage.
So, I think it's really important, and also just picking up on what you were saying about women in general, I, I think it's, it's amazing. There is definitely an awakening, isn't there, about Women globally about being empowered, not in turn, not just in terms of being given a seat at the table or becoming more, more visible, but actually taking control of what we're doing, we do have more power and we are able to help others.
And I think it's a really beautiful thing to see women around the world that. And I think it's just, it's a big thing for hope as well, isn't it? I just [00:27:00] discovered there are so many people in the world doing really good things because all we read about in the papers was doom and gloom. There's a lot of awful stuff going on.
I would never say that's not happening. But there are lots of people working. opposite to do good in the world. And I think we need that sense of momentum and moving forward and let's keep going and you know that kind of thing. I think it's, it's really important. And I think when it comes to the travel industry, we have, we have power. We have power to enable people to tell their stories in a two way street. Yes
Christine: think, as you were talking too, is the idea Like we live in our own bubble, right? We are ourselves. So we have experiences and they are, they are one sided experiences because we can't have both sides of the experience at the same time. We're having our experience as we're somewhere. So [00:28:00] we often disassociate from like what the exchange looks like on the other side.
You know, we walked away, we got back home. We didn't think about, We don't often think about what happened to someone who received the other side of this experience and, and what I'm thinking of in particular in this moment is just a kind of a, a light story. But when I was in Greece with my daughters we met The, the family, there was like an extended family.
We were staying in a guest house and then, you know, two part of the family run this and their kid was, their child was there. And then the grandparents had a bakery and then the cousins had this apothecary and they were all kind of in proximity of one another, which one was so beautiful. Like I was, I just wish for that kind of family and community connection.
I grew up with it, but I don't have it anymore. But when we were there, my daughters befriended the daughter of this family and they played so much together and near the end of our stay [00:29:00] my youngest daughter noticed that her shoes were too small and one of the pairs of shorts she brought were too small and It didn't really make sense to keep carrying them on with us.
Cause we were traveling for months together. And she thought, do you think Ana Maria would like my shoes? I mean, I was like, we're going to throw them away. We can just ask her if she wants them. Right. This is what we would do if we were home. And she goes down and finds this little girl and says, you know, would you like these, they don't fit me anymore.
And Ana Maria gave her the hugest hug and was so grateful. And her grandparents just were like, that was so thoughtful for you to think of. My granddaughter. And then on the other side of that, there's a part of me that's like, every time she throws on those shoes, like she's going to remember this time she spent hanging out with my daughter and playing with her new kitten and they didn't speak the same language, but they like, they just, Loved each other like immediately, you know, and [00:30:00] that experience, I can see both sides of it.
Right. Like my daughter always sings. She's like, remember that sweet little girl we played with and I gave her my shoes. Like, you know, it just that being able to,
Dee: each other. They never forget each other.
Christine: Yeah. Just being able to understand. The other story was written at the same time.
Dee: Yes, exactly. And that little girl, she will grow up. Her experience. But potentially her first experience of a family from America is one of kindness and, and playing and just whatever other emotional connections and memories that she's got, whether she ever leaves those islands or not is, is another question. But she's had a piece of that international, you know, experience.
I think it's, it's. I think we underestimate that a lot. We [00:31:00] forget when we're adults how I mean, if you think back to your life, just forget even travelling, if you think back to your life, there are people in our lives who just stick in our memories for the most They seem like really benign moments.
But something happened in that moment that has made them hardwired into our brain and created something within us. And I think it's, it's a really human experience and it's, traveling is about people. It is about seeing landscapes and doing all of it, getting away, but it is about people. Yeah, I think we forget that sometimes.
Christine: yeah, I do. And for me, that's, that's what I treasure the most. So I really try to cultivate that as I travel and for other travelers or just to bring presence to that. And I do think when you reflect, you, you see those connections but it's, [00:32:00] yeah, it's very interesting to just think about those, those small moments.
But anyway, as you were speaking about kind of. Both sides and, and that kind of dual narrative of one experience or, you know, just understanding the, the ripple of impact. I just think that's where something like this is, is really, really powerful. And, setting the stage literally and figuratively for that interaction, I think is so important.
I wanted to go back to the experience that you did create and you were talking about, you know, some of the women that are being a part of this. And I, one of the things that you and I talked about that I thought that, that like, hasn't really left me is this idea of artisans when we travel. I think there has been this. Huge focus on connecting with artisans. It's something I do as well. And I've actually had to [00:33:00] examine. what this means in my work and, and maybe how I'm speaking or feeling or thinking about it. But in a way, like connecting with artisans, when we travel this narrative of like making sure we meet women who are local handicrafts or something, it feels like it's putting Those artisans at this place where we are trying to elevate them because we're meeting with them, or because we're learning about their art and in that way, it, it sets a dynamic that they don't inherently have their own power or their own value.
And I feel like. Artisans and artists get tied up together in a way that I don't know if there should be a different distinction or not. Like, again, this is something I've just really been thinking about since you and I talked. [00:34:00] And are we belittling something by calling it like a traditional craft? Like, does that inherently imply that it, It's simplistic or doesn't have this like global worth or, you know, I don't know.
I'm really wrestling with all of this as I'm speaking. So I don't have an answer. This is just something I've been thinking about. And when you were talking about. working with local artists. Like I had this one perception in my mind. And then you talk about this woman who was a former lawyer who inherited a textile company that's this giant social enterprise.
And I'm like, okay, we are talking about two very different things in my mind right now. And how often does that narrative like, Wash over the work that maybe somebody else is doing this idea that maybe something's a simple [00:35:00] handicraft and something is a huge social enterprise and they both have the same value in my heart.
But I don't know that they're being communicated that way. So this is just like a can of worms. I'm opening with you. But one, I would love for you to talk about this specific project. And then two, I'd just love to hear from you. Like, what is your initial, like, gut reaction? To thinking about the way that we're talking about art and artisans and culture and community.
Dee: Hmm. I think that's a really interesting question that, yeah, like you say, there's two parts to it. I'm going to pick up on the craft piece first. I think that in the West, we associate the word, sometimes we associate the word craft with a catch all phrase. It can, it can be anything from, I've made a little man out of straws, you know, my kids are doing crafts at school, to [00:36:00] some, someone that has been passed down some skills from, you know, masters, and it's either come through their family or they've spent years learning their craft.
You know, and they, they, they reach a level of excellence. So, I think it's, it's Difficult just to use the word craft on its own and give it value, which is why, you know, when I talk about it, I'll talk about heritage craft. So even traditional crafts, sometimes as you say, and this is, I think it's come a little bit from, from, you know, travel articles and things that you can imagine people who are making seashell necklaces and things like that, and they need a few rupees or a few pennies to kind of help them buy a meal for their families.
Yes, that exists, but there are all also these people who are preserving really old. traditions because [00:37:00] we as people love to see beautiful objects. We love to buy them for our homes. We love to build with traditional methods and traditional ways because we love our architecture. We love the way batiks are created.
I'm talking about Sri Lanka specific, specifically, but obviously this is a worldwide concept. So there's that. then you've got people like Celine, Selena Pieris, who is the person that I was telling you about. So she she is still a lawyer she inherited a textile business from her mother, who was a craftswoman, very skilled craftswoman, who set up a textile business 30 years ago.
Selina, Selina inherited it and when she came to our event in November, she said, look, I'm not a crafts, I'm not creative myself, but I, I look after this industry. It's obviously something that I've inherited, but what they do is they use a lot of very skilled craft [00:38:00] people scattered around Sri Lanka to create these beautiful intricate lace work and embroidery.
I mean, the stuff is exquisite. It really is. And as a designer, you know, I've, I've learned to be discerning because I have clients who have got high standards. It's exquisite stuff. And what she's done is she said, well, you know, we've got all of these people around the island. Now, some people could take a more cynical view and pay them a few pennies.
And go and sell these beautiful products for a hundred times and, you know, we keep all the profits, but that's not what she's trying to do. She's the one that's introduced blockchain technology into her supply chain in order to make sure the crafts from craftsperson to retail, there is equity and fair fairness in [00:39:00] the pricing and the salaries and the wages.
So I think that there is. What we need to do, I think, is just ask the questions, really, when you're going, when we're out and about, whether it's in our home countries or when we're travelling. Understand what the craft is. Is this a person who has a little stall somewhere or a shop of their own and they're making to sell and it's food on the table and you're paying that supplier?
You're paying that craftsperson directly, in which case we need to make sure that we recognize the value in their work. That we're happy to pay fairly. Are we paying a big shop? Are we buying products from a big chain that's got all these beautiful things on display in glass cabinets and we're paying through the nose for it?
Is the person at the other end of the supply chain being paid fairly? So I think it's a bit of a minefield [00:40:00] and I think we have to just ask those questions. But the other thing that I would say as well is that art anyway is always undervalued. You know, I'm a designer and you know, in our, in the design community as designers, we're always saying, God, you know, if anyone really knew pound per hour, how much we're being paid for the work that we're doing, and we've got hundreds of thousands of pounds going through us through, you know, through our clients, we're not paid.
You know, I think most designers would say we're not paid fairly. So I think art and craft and anything like that anyway, is something that's, that's undervalued, but it's up to us as consumers to make sure that we understand where our money's being spent. And that's what this comes down to actually, when we travel.
And I know you endorse this and you talk about this a lot. We need to make sure that [00:41:00] travelers also take some responsibility for where they spend their pounds and dollars. You know, are you staying somewhere that supports community that has got some ethics around it? Are you traveling with a good company?
Are you buying from the right places? You know, that kind of thing. So, we all have a part to play. We all have a part to play. And part of Hera Project X is also one of the women who's in Hera Project X is an architect who's actually working, apart from Selena, is working with a lot of these artisans.
who have established businesses and she's taken them under her wing and showing them how to, how to price, how to stand by your price, how to, you know, make money for yourself. So that's another thing that we're supporting as well. We've got a lot of people who are really doing that already and, and no one's singing their [00:42:00] praises.
So I think there is work out there that's, that's being done. I heard a story the other day from someone actually not in Hera Project X. I was talking to. a friend about this and she said that she was trying to help someone actually in Sri Lanka. She was trying to help someone, I think they were a small family who were trying to make money from cooking that they create, produce beautiful food and so she sat down with them for an hour just Mentor them a little bit and she realized that they were what they were doing was they were pricing their dishes At cost so they never actually made any money They you know, just so just a little shift in but where's the profit, you know?
It's cost plus a bit on top for you And that's what you sell it for. So, just really basic [00:43:00] things some people just don't get because they, they haven't been taught. And I know it seems obvious to us, these, these little shifts are, are things that can be exploited or can be rectified. I'm sorry.
Christine: Yeah.
Dee: for me.
Christine: Thank you for sharing all of that. And yeah, I hope it's a conversation we continue to have. I think it's something that inherently through your project is like, it's going to be a part of a part of that, right. Is, is looking at the value and looking at perception and looking at the ways to continue to elevate.
that value and to really make it a distinction in the worth of it. And like you've said, it's hard in the, in the art industry in general, it's hard to, people want the beautiful things and they, you know, want this to be a part of their environment. But how do you say that, like, you know, [00:44:00] this sculpture is this much in this sculpture is this much in this material is this much like it.
So it's. Somehow the, I mean, we do it with everything. How is this car this much in this car, this much, but some, in some places we've accepted that hierarchy of value. In some places we still question it and don't allow things to have the same. Just, we don't justify the value or the cost in the same way because it's art or I don't know.
I'm sure this could be a huge tangent, but I just, I'm excited for it to be. like a, a continued conversation. But before we end our time together, because it's flying by as always, you and I can never have enough time together, which I appreciate. I wanted to just talk a little bit more about like where HERA Project is right now the next retreat you have and what you're trying to do with that to push this [00:45:00] forward, because I think it's really important and I want.
Anybody who's listening to this to hear what you're looking for and hear maybe how they can help support this growth and and bring, bring this to the next level together with us
Dee: Thank
Christine: with you, not with me with you.
Dee: much. Yes, I love you to come. Please come. Yeah, so the the event in June and I've been calling it a retreat and I think I will continue to call it a retreat because whoever comes will be looked after. and cared for and will have great food and wellness and yoga and massages and gong baths and all the rest of it.
But what we're also adding to that is this Hera Project X element whereby some of the creatives, the female entrepreneurs will come in and we'll have these interactive sessions. It will be a cultural exchange. There'll be [00:46:00] sparkling conversation and panel debates and just talking sort of head to head with their western counterparts.
So what I'm looking for is for people who are outside of Sri Lanka, specifically female creative leaders, want to retreat, who want to come to Sri Lanka and just, you know, experience the culture and have the wellness and the food, like I said, and some local experiences, but also Who, when they're going away, are looking for inspiration, just creative inspiration.
I mean, I know when I go away, and I'm sure you do too, I love architecture, I'm always looking at buildings, I love nature, all of these things. And I often think, this is the kind of thing that I would love to do. As a solo female traveler, to find something where I could spend time with other like minded women, but then meet local women who are [00:47:00] like me and have these conversations.
And the idea in June is we ran this pilot in November, which was very much about the creatives and residents. It's kind of taking the idea and now sort of bringing it to the public, if you like. But I'm very specifically looking for women who want to come on the retreat from these creative industries, who are leaders in their field, who want to meet their counterparts in Sri Lanka and listen to all the things they're doing and just be inspired and inspire back.
Because I feel like this is the first one. And I want them to leave thinking, God, that was great. Not only did I, because I know they're going to have a great time, not only did I see Sri Lanka and experience the culture, and that massage was amazing, the food was insane, but my God, I met these amazing people.
I've made friends. I wasn't even looking for new friends, but I've made friends. And [00:48:00] now I'm going to travel in a different way. And maybe I might, who knows, collaborations might come out of it. Who knows? So anyone, photographers, authors, architects, designers, anyone in the textile industries, we've got all of the above.
We've got a woman who's a stand up comedian, who's going to do a set. We've got musicians. I mean, it's going to be a really, incredible, incredibly uplifting time. The other thing I just wanted to say that part of what Hera Project X is about as well, very quickly, is inspiring the next generation. And so the people who come, I'm not making any money from this by the way, I am covering costs.
So I'm looking for a price that covers costs. But within that, we've built in an amount that will then fund what we're going to be calling the Hera Project X Academy, which will be sort of long weekend workshops that will be run by some of the local Sri Lankan entrepreneurs [00:49:00] who will take 16 to 23 year old young women who don't have access to, you know, good education and that kind of thing to teach them about financial independence. sexual health, self confidence, how to become a jewellery designer, how to become a textile designer, all of these kinds of things, how to become an entrepreneur so that they can become financially independent and be able to stand on their own two feet as well as choose to marry and have a family. So it's very much a circular kind of economy in motion.
Christine: Thank you so much for adding that. I had that in my notes and that was also something that. That I loved so much in our, in what we were talking about before is this highlighting and adding value and giving the stage to these women in Sri Lanka is allowing the women around them [00:50:00] to see this opportunity and this path that hasn't been, and you know, by your sharing with me, been an option or been something celebrated or even been a possibility.
Like this is really breaking down some traditional. Stereotypes and patterns by like saying, you can, like you said, you can choose to be a business owner. You can,
Dee: You can.
Christine: you can have value in honoring this cultural art form. You can have value in In whatever path you choose, and I think this is something like my like little feminist bells just like went off all over the place, but this is still conversations we're having everywhere.
It's so it's incredibly challenging for me when my [00:51:00] daughters ask me questions and I and I see like. These cracks that still exist today for them, like, yes, you can choose never to marry someone. You can choose that. Yes. My, my oldest daughter gave me a talking to because I kept joking with her. She loves fancy clothing and art and jewelry and homes and cars.
Like, she just. everything that is very fine. She's just drawn to it. Right. And I'm like, Oh, you're going to have to marry a prince someday. And she's like, mom, would you stop telling me that I am just going to earn and make my own way and buy the things I want that make me happy. I was like, Oh, I can't believe I've been the person telling you this story.
When I am the one who would normally just be like, forget the prince. You've got this girl. And. So it's still happening. I'm doing it. And I'm the one who's like, so against it. And I'm even [00:52:00] doing it. And so I just think it's so much bigger than we realize it is just to give this place for another woman to see the possibility.
Because they witnessed it in somebody else. And then they go, aha. And then they turn and they're like, you know what I heard? I heard that this is what we could do. I saw it. I saw it with my own eyes, or the story and it just, it feels little. And again, I'm going to digress all over the place, but this is like, even why women for a long time, weren't allowed to gather because when we tell one another that we are powerful, All of a sudden we're powerful
Dee: Oh yeah.
Christine: and we can't be held back.
And this is why all of these stories were written about, you know, witches and all these things, because like, then it makes it. [00:53:00] Like women can't gather because they are powerful when they gather. And like, when I see this, that's the thing I get most excited about. Like we don't, you don't even know the untapped potential of what this looks like.
And like, I know some of the women you've spoken to and I'm like, if they show up at this thing, I can only imagine. What happens next? So I, I could go on forever about this, but this is what I'm so excited about. Like, I just, I know I got off our call last time and I'm like, I'm emailing all these people.
I'm like, you have to check this out. You have to just see, I don't even know what yet. I just know, like have the conversation, be curious, let's see what else is out there. And so I, I can't wait to hear from you. Maybe like part. Three of this conversation is coming in August or something to hear what happens, but I'm so excited.
I I'm so it just shows me the possibility of what happens [00:54:00] when, when we see something that we don't believe is just and right. And we take a step towards, you know, making that change and, and it can be whatever at whatever scale, but I believe that. It will always come back bigger than we think it is.
Dee: I agree, and so many people step forward to say I want to be part of that. Let me help. Let me collaborate. Let's, you know, I have many people who are doing that. So, yeah, I set it off. Sure. But there are a lot of people who are standing with me and really helping drive this forward. It's, it's super exciting.
Thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to share.
Christine: Yeah. Thank you. I wish we had more time to even go further, but I love, I love this conversation. I love this first,, unscripted, just go at it. This was really fun to pick up where we left off and let people in on Kind of what happens when you're thinking about [00:55:00] what you can do, because again, I think this isn't even something we're so used to, show up with the business plan, have the formal pitch, show the thing like this.
And the magic happens like in these conversations, right? When you're just like, Oh yeah, I hadn't thought about that thing. Or that's a great way to say that, or that perspective is a little different than I had, but I think it's really relevant here. And then all of a sudden, you know, it's taking shape in this way.
It's, I don't know, again, I'm in this space today that doesn't have any walls. I'm like all the place. So thank you for, for being here with me. D before we end, I usually have a few rapid fire questions. I don't want to take away from our conversation too much because I think it was so beautiful.
And since we're already Unscripted and off, you know, off of that here, the one I want to make sure that I address with you is the last question I always ask every guest, which is because soul of travel is a space for honoring women in the industry. I want to make [00:56:00] sure I give you the opportunity to recognize someone who you would like to be celebrated in this space, in this container.
Dee: God, I've got a list as long as my arm, to be honest. I think I would like to talk about Sushni Da Silva who is part of Hera Project X. She was working for Experience Travel Group. She has been in the travel space for a long time, but she has this incredible local knowledge of Sri Lanka. I mean, she's like. history book. She's like an archive, you know, she travels across the island. She's really supportive of all the kinds of people that I've just been talking about. And she never blows her own trumpet. And actually she's a really, in fact, I was encouraging her to you know, I, I want to put her up for a few awards because I know she won't do it herself.
And that is the problem. Isn't it? [00:57:00] People like Thushni, who just work and don't think, I don't need recognition for this, I'm just doing my thing, but then other people don't know she exists. And I said to her, if people don't know you exist, then how can you inspire the next generation? So, she's one of, she's one of many, many, many, but she springs to mind because she's been on my mind recently.
Christine: Yeah, thank you and thank you again so much for this conversation and for the continued connection and for yeah, just showing up in this space and so quickly saying yes to getting back on the podcast and talking about your project and just for always being someone I enjoy spending time with.
Dee: Oh, likewise. Thank you so much, Christine. We've got to try and get you out there in June.
Christine: Thank you. Fingers crossed. We'll see. Thank you.
Dee: Thanks very much.
You can find me on Facebook at Lotus Sojourns on Facebook, or join the Lotus Sojourns Collective, our FB community, or follow me on Instagram either @lotussojourns or @souloftravelpodcast. Stay up to date by joining the Lotus Sojourns mailing list. I look forward to getting to know you and hopefully hearing your story.
