Episode 206 - Judy Carvalhal, Enchanted Expeditions
In this episode of Soul of Travel, Season 6: Women's Wisdom + Mindful Travel, presented by @journeywoman_original, Christine shares a soulful conversation with Judy Carvalhal.
Judy Carvalhal is the Founder and CEO of Enchanted Expeditions, a company that helped to pioneer the modern tourist industry in the Galapagos Islands & Ecuador. She grew up in Guyana & French Guiana, and was educated at Canada’s prestigious Queen’s University before travelling to South America to become one of the first female park naturalists in Galapagos. Judy’s love for travel and nature is driven by her curiosity about the culture, eco-system and wildlife of the places she visits. This passion fuels her as an entrepreneur, conservationist and an expert in her field. She inspires her guests to explore the world, create amazing travel experiences, have fun & be adventurous. She also ensures that part of their experience includes learning about the importance of conservation. She believes that without tourism, there is no conservation.
One of Judy’s favorite places to explore is Ecuador & Galapagos and she uses her knowledge to curate one of a kind itineraries that take her guests “off the beaten track” and offers them authentic travel experiences. Judy is committed to ensuring that Enchanted Expedition’s guests learn about the history, culture & eco-systems that make this part of South America such an incredible place to visit.
Judy’s education in ecology and evolutionary biology combined with her experience working as a naturalist guide in Galapagos, inspired her to champion sustainable tourism before it was recognized by the media and tourism industry. She and her partners, were trailblazers -- conducting research and creating dialogue and policies to ensure that their company championed “responsible tourism” and “environmentally friendly” practices.
After raising four children in Galapagos and Ecuador, Judy is more passionate than ever to ensure that this precious part of the world is protected. Judy’s deep and heartfelt commitment to protect and preserve both the wildlife and culture of Ecuador has built a loyal team that shares these values.
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Finding Home in Movement
Judy's unique perspective on belonging stems from her rich multicultural background. "I was born in Guyana at the time when it was British Guyana, a British colony. I grew up in French Guyana and then we immigrated to Canada and then eventually after a year of backpacking in South America, I ended up in Galapagos," she shares. That move to Canada was a turning point for Judy, who had felt at home in French Guyana, with a new understanding of what “home” meant beginning to develop when she was a young teenager. “Wherever I was at the time became home.” She even unpacks every time she travels, whether she is staying overnight in a hotel or sojourning to a new place for a few months. Settling in this way gives her the freedom to become unattached to any particular place, instead feeling as if she belongs to all places.
“Travel allows us to form a connection to a place that isn’t our home,” Christine shares, “And that connection is what allows us to then own a little responsibility or care, have that tie.” This emotional tie — this thread to a place — can cause us to turn our attention toward conservation and sustainability.
Judy adds, “I'm really very open, understanding, and so it really blows my mind when I see people unaccepting about other people. So this is why I feel travel is so important in many ways to open one's, ability to accept the differences in various cultures and various people, and to embrace it. Travel is so important in many ways.”
Breaking Barriers in Adventure Tourism
As a woman in the industry, particularly in Ecuador, Judy faced significant challenges. "I was a divorced woman with children, running my own business... many times I got into situations where they wouldn't pay attention to me," she recalls. Rather than being deterred, she used these challenges as motivation. When told she wouldn't get a guide position because she was a woman, she proved them wrong: "All he did is challenge me. And I got all three jobs."
Judy’s passion and commitment to creating an environmentally-conscious travel company in this fascinating region — the Galapagos and Ecuador — has helped her to persevere through these challenges and more.
The Evolution of Galapagos Tourism
Judy provides a fascinating historical perspective on tourism development in the Galapagos, explaining how the islands transformed from having "hardly any tourism" to becoming a model for sustainable travel.
“You know, after so many years I've seen such changes. Back in the day, our boats did not have air conditioning, okay? We had little fans. And, twelve-volt fans at night. And you would turn the engines off at night. No generators are running. It was quiet. You'd open the porthole, and you could hear the sea lions, you could hear the water against the boat.
“There, the sound of silence. It was absolutely beautiful. People want comfort. If I had a boat like that now, I tell you, I'd go bankrupt. Nobody would go on it. No, people want air conditioning and all of that. What does that mean? The generator is running all the time and we want to help the environment.”
She notes how tourism practices have evolved, and how that evolution continues as more and more communities and tour operators begin to address the challenges created by the surge of tourism.
A Family Legacy & Wisdom for the Journey
As with many mothers who are also in the travel industry, Christine and Judy’s conversation reveals how travel became a family affair. "I always traveled with the kids," she shares, recounting adventures from when her children were infants. This passion for travel led to creating Enchanted Adventures with her daughter Tatiana, and now includes her sons in the family business.
Judy emphasizes the importance of continuous growth and self-care. "One thing I find so important is taking care of oneself," she advises. Her personal practice includes daily meditation and constant learning. "I always feel like there's something else to learn... sometimes, after being so many years, you think it's your own, only your decision that is right. So listening, accepting your mistakes, and trying to learn, and taking care of yourself."
“We might have a little less unrest in the world if we traveled more, we saw other people, we ate their food, we listened to their stories.”
Soul of Travel Episode 206 At a Glance
In this conversation, Christine and Judy Carvalhal discuss:
· Judy's global journey and her evolving concept of home
· Pioneering women in adventure tourism
· The evolution of Galapagos tourism
· Developing a love of travel with family
· Self-care and the power of an attitude of continuous learning
Join Christine and Judy Carvalhal now for this soulful conversation.
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Related UN Sustainable Development Goals
Sustainable Development Goal #12: Ensure sustainable consumption and production patterns.
Sustainable Development Goal #17: Strengthen the means of implementation and revitalize the Global Partnership for Sustainable Development.
Resources & Links Mentioned in the Episode
Visit Enchanted Expeditions to learn more about Judy and her work and book your Galapagos and Ecuador adventure.
Connect with Judy and Enchanted Expeditions on your favorite social media channel! Facebook / Instagram / LinkedIn / YouTube
About the Soul Of Travel Podcast
Soul of Travel honors the passion and dedication of people making a positive impact in the tourism industry. In each episode, you’ll hear the stories of women who are industry professionals, seasoned travelers, and community leaders. Our expert guests represent social impact organizations, adventure-based community organizations, travel photography and videography, and entrepreneurs who know that travel is an opportunity for personal awareness and a vehicle for global change.
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Credits. Christine Winebrenner Irick (Host, creator, editor). Judy Carvalhal (Guest). Original music by Clark Adams. Editing, production, and content writing by Carly Oduardo.
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Soul of Travel Episode 206 Transcript
Women’s travel, transformational travel, sustainable travel, women leaders in travel, social entrepreneurship
Christine: Welcome to Soul of Travel podcast. I'm your host, Christine. Uh, today I am very, very excited to be welcoming Judy Carvajal to the podcast. Um, she's the founder and owner and CEO of Enchanted Expeditions. And, um, she has been a pioneer in the industry and I have Really been looking forward to this conversation since long before I knew you.
Christine: Um, so I'm really happy to be welcoming you here to this space of conversation.
Judy: Good morning, Christine, and I am so honored to be here. Thank you for having me, and I'm looking forward to our conversation.
Christine: Yeah, thank you. Um, well, just to bring our listeners into the fold a little bit, we met a few years ago at an adventure travel trade. Um, event and we had one of those speed dating moments where we got to have like an eight minute conversation. Um, and I was so excited, um, to meet you and your daughter who was with you at the time.
Christine: Cause like I said, you're someone I had followed in the industry, but if I'm honest, always been really intimidated by because I was like, she's been doing this forever. She's such a seasoned professional and I don't even know. You know what I would ask I was so intimidated and this happens a lot with people I speak to and then you and I had the chance of taking a pre summit adventure day in Panama recently and we ended up on a little swing together in the jungle and just Hit it off and had so much, um, beautiful conversation instantly.
Christine: So I'm really glad to have removed the version I had of you first from my brain. And now I'm like, Oh, she's someone I just want to like travel with and sit on a swing and talk about life and travel with. So that's the energy that we get to bring into this conversation.
Judy: Wow, that is so sweet. I didn't mean to intimidate anybody.
Christine: I think it's interesting. And maybe we'll, we can talk about this when we. You know, well, further in the conversation, but I think it's just, uh, it's one of those things of how we perceive one another or maybe how we show up in spaces. And, um, I mean, I think it's all personal reflections that projections on other people.
Christine: And it's interesting how that can happen, but now, now knowing you, I think, oh my gosh, that's hilarious that I thought that because I, I felt. I mean, instantly that went away, but it was funny that I had that, had that, um, like preconceived idea. Um, before we get too much further into the conversation, um, Judy, I just want to turn it over to you to introduce yourself, uh, tell us a little bit about who you are and the company that you own.
Judy: Okay, my name is Judy Carvajal. And just a little background of, because people often ask me where am I from and honestly it's wherever I am at the time because I was born in Guyana at the time when it was British Guyana, a British colony. I grew up in French Guyana and then we immigrated to Canada and then eventually after a year of backpacking in South America, I ended up in Galapagos.
Judy: And so that's many, many years ago in 1977, and I'm, this is really a speed description of my background. And um, once I got there, I, um, with time, I guess I can add there, yes, I arrived there with a certain background in evolutionary biology, ended up settling there. and founded a company called Enchanted Expeditions.
Judy: And this now would be around 45 years ago. Now the company has changed names, officially Enchanted Expeditions 35 years ago, but in the business, 45 years.
Christine: Yeah. Um, I was looking as I was researching, obviously it, um, showed that your company was established in 78 and you'll probably also be grateful to hear this. And I'm like, well, that's not possible because there's no way that this company is basically the same age as I am. Because I was like that they're just the math doesn't add up on that because I also after we connected, I'm like, I mean, I know Judy's older than me, but I don't think that she could have a business that's been around the same amount of time as me.
Christine: But since I'm only like 27, that works out maybe when we do math that way
Judy: No,
Christine: in my mind.
Judy: no problem saying my age. I'm 72. And so yes, I can have a business that old.
Christine: Yeah. I just, I think even more than that is like your energy and your, your vibrance and your vitality and all those things that when I'm around you, I, um, just like absorb. Those were the things that, and again, this could be a conversation about perception as well.
Christine: Like, I think a lot of times if we're imagining Yeah. A woman who's 72. We're not imagining someone who is running an adventure travel company. Um, and also, you know, all these things about just the way that you show up. And I, I just really appreciate it. Cause that in itself inspires me to know that really my dreams can be starting right now.
Christine: You know, there's a lot of time to still create change and build the life that we want to live. And so. Anyway, I'm just gushing now, but I really appreciate it. Um, I wanted to go back and talk a little bit more about your background. You kind of, Zipped us through it really quickly, but I, I'm wondering about how your experience to place, and I love how you said home is wherever you are, because that's kind of one of the questions I had is how does this journey, and I didn't know where you grew up either, but how has that impacted how you understand place, the idea that.
Christine: You know, wherever you are is home. How does that allow you to maybe connect to place in a different way where some people I think in travel, you know, we have our home and we have where we go. And when you think like that about the world, like home is the place you kind of take care of or the place that you resonate with and where you go is something that it's home.
Christine: It's kind of like the idea of what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas, right? Like you're kind of detached to, detached and not responsible. Like this is just a place here for a fleeting amount of time. And so there's not this onus on you to be a caretaker of that space. And this is going to jump ahead to sustainable travel and things like that.
Christine: But I just wonder how. Your early experiences being a global citizen really shaped maybe an understanding of the importance of every place.
Judy: Well, definitely it must've had an impact on me. I mean, growing up in one country, Well, until I was eight and then we moved to the other. And, uh, obviously it was because of political reasons, there was political unrest, and so we moved to another one. And then after, what, eight years there, there was also the, in French Guiana, French Guiana is a department of France, so it is, um, It was completely, at that time, the country only had 40, 000 people.
Judy: The business my parents had was totally dependent on the government. And in 1968, all this, uh, the student riots and so on. Affected their, their business with the government. And so they decided to move on. So there, again, because of unrest, we picked up and we went to Grenada and we were going to stay there.
Judy: We stayed there for one year, more or less. And, uh, at that point we were having trouble getting our residency. And then from there, my mother had enough of that point. She says, let's go where the whole family went, which was to Canada. So we immigrated to Canada. So this movement around, I never really felt, it really hurt me when we moved out of French Guiana because that was, had become home for me.
Judy: I lived there until I was 16. And so that uprooting, I think had a big effect on me. So when we moved to Canada, it became home and I didn't want to attach too much. And then when I, I did a stint backpacking in Europe and then when I graduated from university, I just said, okay, I want to go back to South America and discover all over.
Judy: So this was 1977. I mean, it was kind of really rugged and very unusual for women to be backpacking. I wasn't by myself. And so backpacked throughout Latin America. Saw a lot of thing. It was a time of tremendous unrest and I was absolutely naive and got into very weird situations many times. Anyway. So with all that ended up in Galapagos.
Judy: Um, but my draw to Galapagos was my background in evolutionary biology. So I ended up there and I thought, Oh, well, they're looking for naturalist guides. I speak two languages fluently. I was more or less in Spanish then and decided to stay. So this movement of getting there, I said, okay, I'll stay. And then I met my ex husband.
Judy: So then I said, okay, I'll stay on. So with that, and then Canada became my distant home. And then somewhere the years go by, we go to Aruba and then I spend some time there. So with all of that, I discovered that, and it just happened organically that wherever I was. At the time it came home and I feel home is within myself.
Judy: So as I told my kids once when my son was complaining about something, I said, even if I'm in a hotel room for two nights, I unpack, I put everything away. It becomes home because I don't want to be somewhere and missing somewhere else. Like I'm being interviewed in Canada. I'm here for the, for the Christmas.
Judy: I'm all settled in. I don't miss anything anywhere. And then in January, when I leave and I head South again, wherever I go, that's going to be home and I won't miss it because, so that's how you embrace wherever you go. Okay. Those are the places where I would spend more time. Now, when I travel, I also have that sense that I am here.
Judy: I'm not missing home. This is my home, whether it's a hotel room or wherever I am. So that's my concept of home in, in that way. Of course there's bigger homes like this home, the Galapagos, Aruba, Quito. I mean, we have homes in different places, physical structures around us. And, yeah, I'm not, I mean, I have two citizenships, I could have three, but I'm not attached to any particular one.
Judy: Um, I feel I belong to them all.
Christine: I think that's really beautiful. And I think that's really interesting to contrast with some other people that I've interviewed who have said how hard it is to feel rooted in this industry because you're, moving so much that you, you feel a little untethered. And so that statement of finding home within yourself and being able to find that groundedness and take it with you everywhere.
Christine: I think that's a really, um, beautiful ability because I think it's necessary to, to be well and whole when you are moving as often as we might be. Um, but I think that's a beautiful practice. And I think, um, I used to do something like bring a, a candle or a certain scent and have that with me everywhere.
Christine: And that would be like the way my brain would kind of connect and be like, okay, we, we still feel safe or secure or cozy or connected. So I think I was, I was trying to impart that wisdom a little bit within my own. space.
Judy: Oh, I like that. You
Christine: I actually had started even with my kids because we would travel to spend summers with my parents in Montana from wherever we were living at the time.
Christine: And I just would notice it would take a little time for them to settle in. And so I started. putting something in a diffuser in the same spaces. And I noticed that that maybe helped them feel more calm. And then I realized I could do that for myself when I was traveling. So that was my, my hack, but I think it can be really hard.
Christine: And I think that's incredible to see, but I also want to think about that in the terms of, um, I guess how you, because it's interesting because. I always talk about travel as creating an attachment to a place and you just then made me think about how powerful it is to not be attached. And then I go to like my broader like spiritual context and like the goal is non attachment.
Christine: So now I'm like, Oh, I'm rethinking everything in this moment, Judy. But to stick with what my, my normal ideas are, is that travel allows us to. really form a connection to a place that isn't our home. And that connection is what allows us to then kind of own a little responsibility or care or have that tie is something that when you read about unrest or you read about environmental disasters or you read about whatever it might be in a place you've been.
Christine: Like you have this emotional tie like there's a thread ties you to that place and that's what I'm always trying to create for my travelers is that connection that I think is really important in the context of sustainability and conservation and all of those things. So I'm just wondering, um, What that looks like maybe for you, because I don't, I don't know.
Christine: I just, I think it's a really important way to make travel have value. So I think I'm trying to find out exactly what my question is here. Cause I strayed because I lost track of my whole reality with the non attachment.
Judy: know, can I add something here?
Christine: Yeah, please.
Judy: I Travel for me, having lived in so many countries from a very young age and moved around, I'm, I'm really very open, understanding, uh, and so it really blows my mind when I see people unaccepting about other people. So this is why I feel travel is so important in many ways to open one's, um, ability to accept the differences.
Judy: in various cultures and various people and to embrace it. Um, so by yeah, I forget what exactly where I'm going with this, but what I'm trying to say, travel is so important in many ways, in learning not only Like I'm going now, I'm going to go to Galapagos. One thing I find with Galapagos is because it's a laboratory in the world, it's, it's, it's a national park.
Judy: So when people visit there, they're learning something about the environment, about why it's so important to protect the environment. To, to conserve, to be careful with the environment and they take that home with them. Right. And they can then spread it within their community. So, and the same thing I feel with travel with peoples.
Judy: I mean, I've traveled, I, I tend to go to kind of unusual places. I love going, you know, I've traveled like Africa for me has been amazing. And the more cultures I see or Bhutan or wherever it's the more different they are. The more interesting it is for me because then you realize this is what's important in travel and more people should travel to those sorts of destinations to open our mind, our minds to the differences, not just travel to places that are familiar, culturally familiar. Um, I remember meeting a lady once, she said to me, I would only go somewhere that feels like America. And I thought, well, then I may as well stay home. But um, the point is we might have a little less unrest in the world. If we traveled more, we saw other people, we ate their food, we listened to their stories. And yeah, I don't know if I'm making sense, but
Christine: No, I think that's beautiful. And I think that is what is really important because those are those moments. Like, I kind of love those moments, kind of like this conversation, like when you're rocked a little, right? And the thing you thought you knew was true is no longer true. And like, kind of in the best way, right?
Christine: Is we, we all have beliefs that are created by You know, all these experiences that we've had and that's how humans operate. But those moments when you experience a different culture or a different, um, setting environment, et cetera, and you just go, Oh, that wasn't true. And it's like growth. Like, I just feel that the expansion happened and I'm like, I'm so thankful.
Christine: And I think that's very uncomfortable for some people, but. But probably you and I are similar in that that's, um, it's, it's so incredible. Like, I just want to feel that expansion over and over and over again. Like I want to feel challenged and I want to feel that expansiveness and it's almost like. Again, it's like, that gets to be a part of me.
Christine: Like I, I now can weave in like this moment in this village with these women in Uganda, which is like where my business came from, but like that's a part of me now, and that's pretty special. And I, I just, that's where I feel like travel has incredible power to really create. Um, uh, like I said, I, I think that's, it's incredibly important.
Judy: like the company I have with my daughter Enchanted Adventures, we do, um, other places, right? And one of the things is to, uh, I've only done two or three so far where it's nothing to do with Galapagos. I take people somewhere on the trip and the whole point of it is to be, to be a little uncomfortable. And actually, one of the participants always say, says, she says, Judy, on her trip, she will take us on a really awful road that I think I'm getting into God knows what, be terrified, and then at the end of the road, there's someplace beautiful.
Judy: And I've been in those situations with one woman in Uganda, in fact, and I didn't understand why she was so upset. We were in the middle of nowhere. The road was terrible. And it was, you know, And I was just kind of, yep, here we are, sort of thing, and then I realized I was being insensitive to her. She was absolutely terrified, because if she thought a car broke down here, what's going to happen?
Judy: And I thought, well, the guy's got a cell phone, he'll call, and we'll be out of this, it'll be fun. So yes, those uncomfortable situations are important,
Christine: Mm hmm. Yeah. I, I can't remember. This is a hazard of the trait. I can't remember who I was talking to about this, but the, the idea that we have spent a lot of time making travel comfortable for people, like when we Travel originally was kind of like these expeditions, right? And things like that. And then at some point when travel became commercialized, it became all about taking those kind of expeditions and that wildness and making it comfortable, but then I think we lost how you grow through discomfort.
Christine: So I also agree that you and I will have the worst website that was like, we would love to make you really uncomfortable.
Judy: will come.
Christine: But that's like the big magic is that discomfort. And so I really feel like, yeah, that's a, that's the, and there's so many of us that do this and I think do it well, like we, we try to straddle the line, but that discomfort is what's important. And I think we need to get back to more discomfort. And I also think that that will be something that allows.
Christine: travel to be more equitable because when we try to layer the luxury over top of places that are not luxurious, then we create a greater divide and the power dynamic is sometimes more obvious and then sometimes disappears. And so I just think like we have to get brave and let travel be. uncomfortable. I love this
Judy: I'd like to give a little example in Galapagos. You know, after so many years I've seen such changes. Back in the day, our boats did not have air conditioning, okay? We had little fans. And, twelve volt fans at night. And you would turn the engines off at night. No generators are running. It was quiet. You'd open the porthole, and you could hear the sea lions, you could hear the water against the boat.
Judy: There, the sound of silence. It was absolutely beautiful. People want comfort. If I had a boat like that now, I tell you, I'd go bankrupt. Nobody would go on it. No, people want air conditioning and all of that. What does that mean? The generator is running all the time and we want to help the environment.
Judy: We're not helping the environment. We're worse now than we were years ago, but that's what people want, as you say, that comfort. And so they miss the silence. They miss hearing all those beautiful sounds, uh, throughout the night or very early in the morning, but yes.
Christine: That's so hard and it's such a shame because it reminds me of two experiences. I'll share these and then we'll try to go to the next question. But, um, I remember being on a small expedition boat in Alaska and it was in the, like, in the, the space between The middle of the night in the middle of the morning, which there's really no differentiation between at that time of year, but like, it's like the sun had kind of go gone down as far as it goes.
Christine: And there was just like mist over the, over the ocean and I couldn't sleep. So I just went up and was sitting on the deck and it was just. absolute stillness and you like you could see forever and couldn't see anywhere like at the same time kind of and then somewhere in the distance you could hear whales and it was just It was so humbling and awe inspiring and magical and to think that like that moment would be erased because of, you know, some other convenience that it's so hard to think because that's important that again, like that discomfort is important.
Christine: Also, how uncomfortable it felt to feel as small as I felt in that moment. And like, I could fall off the edge of the world at any moment. Like I can understand where those early sailors thought that the world fell off because I could like see it there. Um, so like, there's that. And then I remember camping with a friend in, um, Kenya, and this is probably one of those moments where like, maybe it's questionable, but we were doing it anyway.
Christine: And, um, again, like just. Expansive spaces are powerful and I love trying to get people into them. And we were camping and I woke up in the morning and like my brain really wanted to operate in the known. And so I like opened my tent and I was like, Oh, that's so weird. There's like dog poop outside of my tent.
Christine: And I'm like, I wonder where that dog came from. And I'm like trying to operate in my normal operations. And my girlfriend wakes up and steps out and she's like, Oh, we had hyenas at the campsite last night. And I'm like, Oh my God. Um, and it was terrifying. And yet like, it was really important because I understood I was in nature and like I inserted myself into the environment.
Christine: of what is in the wild. And like, I just could learn about myself in that moment. And like the fear and the, like me wanting to make it something, a reality I know. And then I had to challenge my reality. And again, I just think I, we could probably share stories like this forever, but I think that is, um, it's something I would really love to push people towards in, in the tourism
Judy: It would be nice. Yeah. That would be a whole special niche. Yeah.
Christine: it will be like, yeah, Judy and Christine's uncomfortable adventures like the next, the next version of things. Um, but so I do want to go back and talk to you, you know, you mentioned the Galapagos and how you landed there and, you know, You know, the, the idea of, you know, your studies and ecology and evolutionary biology.
Christine: And, um, when I first started in the industry, that the company I worked for did a lot of work in the Galapagos and like, It's a place that I think like, as you said, it's like this natural laboratory, right? This is why I always wanted to go there. I'm like, this seems like one of the places in the world that is like a time capsule or like this, it's just such an anomaly.
Christine: And so I really have always wanted to see it. I will
Judy: you have to end that. Yeah. Yeah,
Christine: yeah, sorry. I will, I will. Um, and so I'm just wondering, like, because of. The uniqueness that it is, um, how inherent or apparent was the idea of conservation and sustainability, like initially, and then over the years, like, what does that look like?
Christine: Because When you started working there, you know, tourism doesn't look, didn't look like what it looks like today, but we also know tourism is a key economic driver. So how do you take a place like the Galapagos and, and create that balance between conservation and tourism? Like it, it's a laboratory in its own right for that, that relationship.
Judy: Um, okay. We'd have to go back a little bit. Before it became a national park in 1957, but prior to that, there were, uh, Very few people living there. Okay. So first, I think the first real settlers would have been the Norwegians in the 1920s with a tuna fishing thing. These islands belong to Ecuador, but they weren't, they were just kind of there, if you like.
Judy: So these, this is, this is, Years prior to that, obviously, the buccaneers went through as they were going through the Pacific and collecting the tortoises and so on for food. So anyway, and then the Ecuadorian government also put a penal colony on one of the islands, and I'm not sure exactly when, but probably in the 1920s, 1930s.
Judy: So you had a handful of authority. People there. And then you had the Norwegians living, then the Germans came, which is part of my ex husband's family. So you had these small pockets of people, very few, very few. And then scientists were coming through, right? Um, and usually on sailboats, collecting whatever it was.
Judy: So anyways, in 1957 it becomes a national park. But there are people living there. They couldn't stop that and they were living. So what they did is they took 97 percent of the land where nobody was and that became the National Park. So currently there's only where people live is only on 3%. Okay. So there were people living there.
Judy: Um, And then the, the research station came in the Darwin research station just around that time. So here there were scientists doing work that was developing. Um, the national park is established. There's a small population there. There's hardly any tourism. So tourism wasn't such an issue. It started sort of by default.
Judy: Um, my, the Angermeyers, which are my ex family, they were doing fishing back in the sixties. And these scientists would come around and then suddenly they'd get phone calls, not phone calls, sorry, it was more like a letter, uh, from various people saying, oh, can we come and visit? So they were the first people to actually do tourism in the early 60s on their little tiny sailboats with two people going around.
Judy: So tourism started and they were going to the places where they could go and land and that's where the visitor sites developed. Developed around where you could land and you could anchor. So that kind of grew and it started growing. And then this is where, uh, when I arrived in 1977, at this point, there were already a few boats, but mainly sort of converted fishing boats.
Judy: And Metropolitan Touring had a hundred passenger boat. And then there was the buccaneer. There were a few bigger companies bringing a few people in. All right. So now here we are with the National Park. There is tourism, but there were no rules to establish more clearly what could be done, uh, except it was clear where they could go onshore.
Judy: So the National Park, right from the start, established you cannot go here, you can only go here. And when I started a guy as a guide, I remember guiding, um, uh, the Hasselblad man who invited the camera and his people. And they were really angry that they had to follow a trail. And this was 1978 at this point. Um, so now the national park has people living there, has a tourism industry. They cannot pick everybody up and send them away. It's part of Ecuador and things started growing and too many people started coming in. So that's why it's like a country within a country. They had to stop the immigration. Um, Ecuadorians from the mainland cannot just come and live there.
Judy: They're like tourists. They, they So, yes. How So the, the answer to your question is they couldn't just make it a national park, a scientific area, and just stop it. Because prior to that, there were already people living there. So they had to come up with rules and regulations and to try to make it, Make the two work together. It is not easy, uh, but We have had situations because the boats come in it will bring Insects he'll bring and we have had invasive species coming into the islands now would they have come naturally if nobody was living there Who knows because animals somehow got there at some point. Um, And within the National, uh, the Darwin Research Station, there is serious work happening in terms of trying to, uh, there's a particular fly, there is this, there's that, to control, to manage that.
Judy: But the big picture of it is that it is working. So the tourist dollar, Also helps the national park, and it's a very well managed national park. It is very clean. It is well protected. I mean, our biggest problem could be maybe some the Chinese ships that come and might be do illegal fishing that has, but it has to be monitored.
Judy: But obviously, that's a problem periodically. Um, but that would be worse if it weren't a national park. And word controlled so working between, but I have to, it's like our, our, as a tour operator there, we cannot take our boats years past. I can decide, okay, this is the itinerary I will do within the national park, obviously visiting the areas that you can now.
Judy: It isn't like that because there are 80 licenses and there are 80 boats traveling out there. The national park has to create itineraries. So we're not all in the same spot and overcrowding. So the management of the National Park is excellent, I would say. Consider the situation. And for example, during the pandemic, when tourism had stopped, the worry is That we have people living there.
Judy: They're going to start illegal fishing. They're going to start doing hunting and things that they shouldn't be doing. So, it all started when it became a national park and there were people already living there. So you have to work, and I'm sure there are other places like this in the world where you have national parks with a population and you have to somehow make the two work together.
Judy: As best as
Christine: yeah, I think, yeah, I think it's interesting to just seeing, I think there's, it's been interesting seeing like when like fishing regulations got were put into place and then, you know, you bring in boats and, um, you want to have, Passengers eating local fish. And then, so then you're understanding local fishing regulations.
Christine: Like, I think it's interesting how they learn from each other. And then if you're a company that doesn't just operate in Galapagos, then you can take, you're like, okay, this is a great example of how we can have more, um, sustainable fishing. How can I now do that in my operations in Costa Rica or somewhere else?
Christine: I think it's been interesting to see. It being also a laboratory for like how to operate in harmony a little bit better within within the
Judy: Yeah, talking about fishing, when we started, for many years, we fished for our guests. We're not allowed to anymore because it's helping support the, the fishermen because they were doing illegal fishing. So now we buy our fish from the fishermen. And if my crew is caught fishing, when we were out on a trip, the boat gets charged.
Judy: We get fined. We're not allowed. So we buy the fish from the local fishermen and also to support the local economy. We were not allowed to import meat from the mainland of Ecuador. We buy from the farmers. So we're also, there are rules within the national park. Galapagos is managed very differently than the mainland of Ecuador.
Judy: Even the wages, everything. It's like, as I said, it's a country within a country. It is a national park. Um, so, they're trying, we're trying to be as sustainable as possible. It is challenging. I think all in all, there is a good job being done.
Christine: Yeah. Well, thank you so much for sharing that because I think that's, um, obviously most of us don't have such a close up, uh, interaction with that. And also the fact that you've been there and seen kind of what it's looked like over the years. It's such a unique perspective. Um, I want to shift gears and talk a little bit about particularly being a woman in the adventure tourism industry and reflect a little bit on what that has looked like.
Christine: having, you know, a 40 some year career. Um, I'm hoping it's changed for the better, but I'm just curious if there have been like, you know, limited access or opportunities you felt like, you know, being a woman in the industry.
Judy: Yeah, there has been. Like in Ecuador, too. I was, it was sort of different, too. I'm, ultimately, I am a foreigner there, even though I've been there most of my life. And I was a divorced woman with children, running my own business. And yes, it was challenging. And many times I got into situations where they wouldn't pay attention to me.
Judy: I'd be along with somebody else who either worked for me or was a man. And nobody, if I'm in a situation, they're not looking at me. They're talking to whoever it would drive me nuts for not being taken seriously and things like that. Um, it doesn't anymore because I know I have the power. So those are things now things have changed for women there.
Judy: Yes. It was a challenge being a woman, um, in the industry. And even a simple thing when I applied to be a guide and I was told, I remember the time I applied to three companies. And the director of the National Park at the time had said to me, Oh, you won't get it. You're a woman. And I thought, alright, we'll see.
Judy: All he did is challenge me. And I got all three jobs. Anyway, um, So, it, it only strengthened me. It didn't deter me. And I didn't, it bothered me, yes, of course. And it was challenging. And also not only in Ecuador, I found that not in the US and like I'd go to trade fairs and so on. I stopped going to the ITB in Berlin. I'm sure things have changed in Germany, but then I really ran into trouble and it could be, I mean, I'm Latin, I'm Mediterranean, and I'm a woman, and I definitely was not taken seriously there and there it was mainly men. There was one woman running a dive company and she worked with me, but other than that, I couldn't, I couldn't get through.
Judy: I just felt they were not taking me seriously. Things have changed. Uh, all in all, I see so many women in the industry in ownership positions. Um, yeah. So, and the thing is, if you tell me I can't do it, I will make sure I do it.
Christine: I love that. And I think maybe that's the energy I sensed when I first met you. That was the strength that was really intimidating. Um, but I do think it is interesting, you know, I now that I've been in industry, I think, um, Gosh, 25 ish years. I, my first course I took was in 97. Um, and the first, I went to the first ATTA event and I remember like, like initially I was like, Oh, this is the best space because I could feel the like, well, I loved that everybody was not wearing a suit.
Christine: That was the first thing I loved about it. Um, but then I also, you know, was sitting in sessions and at that time I was volunteering for graduate school. Um, at the event, and I was the only woman that volunteered and there was I think one woman speaker and most of the people I was speaking to were men and I was a younger, you know, person at that time and I just was like, Hmm, I feel like I belong here because of the values and ethics and environment and this feels like how I want to think about travel.
Christine: But this has me questioning. Like if travel wants me here a little bit. And, um, coming to this year at the event we just had in Panama and leading a session for women in the industry at that event was, it was incredible to see that whole room full of women. Plus, you know, lots of women at the event that didn't come and weren't, you know, weren't in that room.
Christine: And, um, I just, for me, that feels like I just, I'm just really happy to see it, I guess, like, I feel like more women are going to walk in the room and feel like they belong there. And I think it's really important, um, with some of the changes that need to occur. In the world that women are having those, those spaces.
Judy: And, you know, it's funny because. I know my children often say to me, particularly one son, he says, mom, you're so intimidating when people and my friends meet you there, they're scared. And I'm like, and I'm actually quite an introvert and I'm quite shy and probably that's it, you know, I'm reserved.
Judy: Um, and I remember going to meetings in Ecuador where everybody else in the room was a man in tourism things, and I was intimidated when I, when I, when I It was time to say something, or I had a chance to say something. I didn't say anything. And I would then wait until maybe I was with two or three people in a small group, then to voice.
Judy: But I was really, I struggled with that. I mean, I did my business, I did everything, and so on. But when I was in a whole room of people, and I was the only woman, At the table, I just couldn't
Christine: Yeah. Um, and I think that's also, I mean, that's fair, right? I also am an introvert who many people will say they think that I'm just mean because I don't want to talk because I'm just standing on the edge watching not because I can't believe, like, it's not like the conversations beneath me. It's like terrifying to me, which is why I love this format.
Christine: Um, but I, I think, um, It's so important for other people to, I've talked with other, other women as well. And they're like, man, that's hard. It's hard to put yourself out there. And I think it's important for us to hear to the other people struggle with that and to, to know that it's, it's okay. And then also hopefully to be encouraged to go ahead and, and take up a little bit more space and tell there's two women at the table or three
Judy: yeah, it helps that there are a couple more.
Christine: And yeah, um, so I, I think that's good. Uh, well, I have two other topics I want to get to before we wrap up one. Um, you mentioned, uh, enchanted adventures that you started with your daughter and, um, I wanted to just kind of pull it two things within that space, the traveling with your children, how important that is, and then also like how that.
Christine: impacted your mother daughter relationship and then I'm hoping allowed you then to create this company together. I don't know. Um, I think it's really special that you like had this evolution and travel together and then started the business. So I just want to hear a little bit about that.
Judy: Well, I, well, with the kids, I always traveled with the kids. I mean, I was thinking when my, when Joshua was two months old, we went out on, On around the islands when Tatiana was like eight months and Jonathan was three, we sailed down, um, on one of the boats I bought with my ex husband in Florida, and we brought it to Galapagos, you know, so, so it never was a deterrent having kids.
Judy: And so we did a lot of traveling together and Tatiana loves to travel and when there were a few trips we did where I would, Put it out there when they were teenagers, and I'd say, Okay, I'm going here. Who wants to come with me? And we were going to India. I was going to India. And the kids, because I was separated from my husband, they had a choice to go and spend the holidays with their dad.
Judy: So the only one that said she'd come with me was Tatiana. So Tatiana and I spent six weeks between India and Nepal, and we did all this crazy stuff. So and, uh, And we did a few ATTAs together, ATWSs and, and just spent a lot of time. So then we thought, okay, let's start this other company. And that's how we started Enchanted Adventures.
Judy: Okay. She'll also, um, obviously represent Ecuador and that's what she's selling most, or we're selling most with Enchanted Adventures. But through that Enchanted Adventures is what we do. Um, we sell other parts of the world, places that we've been, that we love. And, um, so yeah, it was fun to do that with her. She is mainly managing it on her own right now because I'm so busy with the other one. I thought I'd be more involved, but I, I don't, but it was, uh, something we did together. Yes. Born from our, both our passion for, for travel and adventure travel. Right now she's got two little ones, so she's a little homebound.
Judy: I know she'll be, actually no, next year they're going with the kids traveling.
Christine: Yeah. Um, I just love that. And I, so many times people will say like, Oh, I can see, cause I have three daughters. Like I can see one of your daughters like wanting to work with you in the future. And. I think, you know, that that would be pretty special because it's such a, um, it's such a, a passion, a place of passion and like extension of self, my business.
Christine: And then to get to share that with them, it feels like a real deep connection. You know, I don't know how people, maybe if you're both lawyers, maybe you still have that passion. I don't know. Cause I'm not a lawyer, but like, this feels really special. Like this is my. Soul's work and to like have a daughter say, I wanna stand beside you.
Christine: And that feels pretty special.
Judy: have two sons also working for the company now.
Christine: Yeah.
Judy: So it's, at first it was Tatiana, she's the first one that came. And then the others, actually, one of them said to me, he says, Oh, never for work for the company. Well, he's, he's very much involved.
Christine: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really special. Um, okay. Well then the last thing before our rapid fire questions that I wanted to ask you, I wanted to kind of tap into the women women's wisdom part of the podcast. Um. I would just love to ask you if there's something you'd like to share with our listeners that you've learned and would like to share in this space.
Christine: And it can be personal wisdom or professional wisdom. Um, like I mentioned, they're usually pretty intertwined, but I'd love to give you that space to share
Judy: Yeah. You know, one thing I find so important is taking care of oneself. You know, we tend to, no matter what profession you're in is forgetting about oneself. And taking, for me, it's, um, and I always did that, you know, many, all the years, I would take one week, um, and go away on a retreat somewhere or something.
Judy: And I continue that today because that self care is so important. To, to be strong, both mental and physically. The other thing too, is to accept mistakes, accept that we do make mistakes. It's okay. And we can move on. And the other thing that I find is so important is, is to listen. Cause I, I had to learn that it's okay to listen to others. Um, are those working for you? Um, I'm most, I listen, but it doesn't mean I'll do what they say, but, but I will listen and not to be afraid to, it's not only the mistakes and the listening, but also to learn from that. Like I'm constantly learning. I always feel like there's something else to learn. You know, I'm always looking for a course to take or something like that because I don't know everything. And sometimes, you know, after being so many years, or when it's your own, you think it's your own, only your decision that is right. So listening, accepting your mistakes, and trying to learn, and taking care of yourself. And what I do now, and I do this every single day, my space is meditation. And I practice TM, and I will actually say it, it's amazing. Been doing it for many years. And it's, it's what holds me. Like currently right now, I'm going through a bit of a, something we're dealing with, with the business that needs a lot of attention and it can distract me and I have to bring myself back and meditate, find that calm, that space,
Christine: I love that. And that's a good reminder. I had that on my, my wishlist, I guess, of personal investments, um, was to take a course in that type of meditation. And, um, my kids have been so little and I always am like, Oh, next time, next time, next time, but that's a good reminder. Cause I feel like it could be next time might be now.
Judy: it is now, it is now. And you know what I've practiced. I've been practicing meditation for decades, tried all kinds. And I started TM seven years ago, and it got me through a lot of crisis, I would say.
Christine: Um, the other thing I just, I just. What you were talking about, always learning. I was having a really interesting conversation with Vincy Ho, who's the founder of Rise Travel Institute. And, um, she was talking about the word expert and how, like how triggering, I guess that word is that it somehow implies you've arrived and there's nowhere else to, you don't need to learn anymore and she's like, I feel like.
Christine: That's an impossible statement. And it's also a limiting statement, which I had never really thought about, you know, so many of us spend a lot of time trying to become an expert or position ourselves as an expert. Like that's sometimes where your authority in your career comes from is that positioning.
Christine: And yet like, does that kind of cut you off and change how you, you know, you view what other ways you need to expand.
Judy: Yeah. No, there's always room. There's always room.
Christine: Yeah, I agree. I can't remember what test I did, but at one point it's like my top three values or characteristics or whatever are all about learning. And like one was learning for the sake of learning. And I was like, That can be a thing that's valuable. Like I just remembered, like, you know, normally I was like, Oh, it should be like, I'm very organized and detail oriented.
Christine: And like, those are your strengths. Oh, it was strengths finder. Cause I was like, my strength is that I learned for the sake of learning. I always kind of thought that was like my Achilles heel because you'll find me like spread out because I just, I, I can't stop. learning about things. I
Judy: No, I'm like that.
Christine: yeah, it's again, it's that expansion, right?
Christine: Like I just, I just want to keep taking more things in. And, um, anyway, I, I think that's really, really important. And, and I think challenging people to question what expert means to them or what, what that
Judy: Or what they think they know, because there's always another, another way of looking at things.
Christine: Okay. We're at the end. So we have our, our rapid fire questions. The, the first one is what are you reading right now?
Judy: Ooh, I'm reading, in case I forgot the name of the book, it's called The Tea Girl of Hummingbird Lane by Lisa Lee. Have you read her? Oh, she's good. Um, the first book I read of her is, the title caught me, they were called The Women of the, The Island Women, The Women of the Sea, or something like that. I'm, I often read books, and it's funny we talk about mother daughter, this has to do with relationship between two friends, women, and a mother daughter relationships, ultimately, you know, the core of it.
Judy: And the other one, I tend to read generally travel books, well not travel books, but books about other places, and cultures, and I, I, I so love that, you know. Books, I've read a lot of books about different things in India and so on. Anyway, I recommend her. Lisa
Christine: Yeah. Thank you. I, I love that too because it's, there's, you know, there's so many places we, we can't get there. And again, that's that, like, it's just, it gives you another deeper level of understanding or someone else's lived experience that just can never be ours. And I think it's really
Judy: Yeah, this is about China. It's about a culture in China.
Christine: Yeah. What is always in your suitcase or backpack when you travel?
Judy: A photograph of my kids and now of my grandkids.
Christine: I
Judy: And, um, I always have a bottle of rescue remedy and, uh, the book I'm reading and, or my e reader, those are the go to things. Yeah.
Christine: Um, to sojourn is to travel somewhere as if you live there. Where would you love still to sojourn?
Judy: I think I'd like to go to somewhere remote in France, in Southern France to rekindle my French upbringing, spend time in a French community and for a few months.
Christine: If you, if when you do that, reach out, cause I have someone you need
Judy: Oh my god, I'm so glad I told you.
Christine: Um, what do you eat that immediately connects you to a place you've
Judy: Curry and roti. You know what that is?
Christine: Yes, I do. Yeah.
Judy: I
Christine: Um, who is a person that inspired or encouraged you to travel the world?
Judy: think my dad, because he was a geography bluff in that sense, and I remember at the age of seven in his office he had a big, um, world map. And that's when he started showing me all over, and we'd have these quizzes about different places, and I was just very curious.
Christine: Um, my oldest daughter is taking a, uh, human geo human geography. It's a, an AP course right now in high school and she's learning all of the countries in Asia and she's like, mom, I had no idea there were so many countries and she's overwhelmed. But at the same time, I love it so much because like, Now she knows all those places exist, right?
Christine: And they have separate identities. And for me, I think that's kind of the magic of maps, right? Is like, I don't know. It's it's, I think that's powerful. And I also think that other thing that's powerful and maybe as a traveler, like how interesting borders are. And when you start looking at like how things have changed and I just maps have so much
Judy: Oh, Máxima is like, I have a globe with the grandkids. They're, what, five now and seven? And it's like, this is where we are. This is, I'm already teaching them
Christine: Yeah. Um, if you could take an adventure with one person, fictional or real, alive or past, who would it be?
Judy: Jane the Doll.
Christine: Ugh, yeah. Let's, I think she would be great on our Get Uncomfortable Travel Tour. So let's,
Judy: Yeah. The other one would have been Diane Fossey.
Christine: hmm, yeah.
Judy: Yeah. Obviously, I'm with the gorillas and the chimpanzees.
Christine: Yeah. Well, they're, I mean, they're such brilliant and inspiring women. So I think it would be incredible. Um, speaking of brilliant and inspiring women, um, who is one woman in the tourism industry you admire and would love to recognize in this space?
Judy: I would like to recognize Janine Kopin for what she did, doing the WTL. It's something that Women Travel Leader Group, it was, it was her, I guess she thought about it. And it was the one thing that really, I was in Galapagos during the pandemic when it started. I think I was on our first call. And it was something that really helped me, and it's grown into a beautiful community.
Judy: So I'd like to recognize her for
Christine: Yeah, thank you so much. And I'll make sure I, uh, tag their information in the show notes. Cause women travel leaders is one of my podcast allies. So, you know, we really try to figure out how to work together to create spaces for women in the industry.
Judy: that. In all of this, Catherine is there, but Janine is the one who started it, so.
Christine: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. And I'll share her interview too, because she's, that was so great. I think I interviewed her really, really early on. So still really in the pandemic. And like, she's had 27 evolutions since then, but she's such a beautiful person. brilliant, wise woman. Like she's really, she's really special.
Christine: So thank you for, for recognizing her here, here. And also thank you so much for joining me. Um, I definitely felt like this felt reminiscent of our swing chat and I, I, I loved having you
Judy: Thank you so much, Christine. I really enjoyed it. I was a bit nervous about it, but I really enjoyed chatting with you. Look forward to meeting you again soon.
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