Episode 214 - Tania Carriere, Advivum Journeys
In this episode of Soul of Travel, Season 6: Women's Wisdom + Mindful Travel, presented by @journeywoman_original, Christine shares a soulful conversation with Tania Carriere.
Tania Carriere is the founder and CEO of Advivum Inc., a leadership transformation company, and its subsidiary, Advivum Journeys, a global retreats company and industry leader in Transformational Travel Design. She is an ICF Professional Certified Coach, holds an MPA from Western University, and has been featured in Elle, Conde Nast Traveller, Psychologies Magazine, the Telegraph, and the Guardian. She is an Adjunct Faculty at the Modern Elder Academy and a regular contributor to several international blogs on personal leadership, midlife and travel.
Tania’s recognized expertise is in Leadership Development, specializing in cultural transformation, employee engagement, personal renewal, and experiential learning. Her successful international career with forward-thinking organizations is a result of her ability to engage individuals in highly creative learning scenarios that enable them to step into their potential, generating unified movement in teams, and bringing together diverse groups for meaningful dialogue.
As an Epiphany Designer and transformational travel retreat leader, she creates deeply engaging learning journeys which focus on personal vision, fulfilment and life design giving her participants a renewed sense of inspiration, balance and direction.
The Power of Travel in Self-Discovery
Tania's passion for travel stems from her experiences with its unique ability to help us discover not just new places, but new aspects of ourselves. As she eloquently explains, "That sense of curiosity and possibility, the chance to change a narrative... I understand my life and my context, and what's around me, but as soon as I go somewhere else, all of that is kind of a blank slate and new." When we travel, we can reinvent ourselves — try on new ways of being, and get to know ourselves in a different way.
Breaking Free from the "Shoulds"
One of the most significant barriers to personal growth and travel is what Tania and Christine discuss as the "shoulds" - those internal and external expectations that often hold us back. The conversation touched on an exercise from Louise Hay's "You Can Heal Your Life," where writing down all your "shoulds" becomes a revealing practice in understanding self-imposed limitations.
As Tania points out, particularly regarding solo travel, "It's fascinating... I can't. Why? Often we can't answer. Because it's scary? Because I am not allowed? I'm not supposed to want to go by myself?" These narratives, especially for women, often stem from societal expectations rather than actual limitations. Through Advivum Journeys, Tania creates experiences that allow travelers to push beyond these expectations.
One powerful theme throughout the conversation was the role of discomfort in personal growth. Tania shares, "Discomfort is not bad. Discomfort is the moment that precedes momentum, that precedes action, that precedes a knowing and awareness as something new."
She illustrates this with common travel scenarios: "It's sort of that discomfort of I'm kind of lost. I don't know where I am. I'm not on the right track... And it's interesting to live through that and go, okay, and the sun is shining, and I'm good."
Tania emphasizes that at its core, investing in and choosing ourselves is about recognizing and valuing our impulses before they get buried under practical considerations and obligations.
"The fundamental question for people is, what is pulling me? What is compelling me? What is that little voice desire?" she explains. This recognition of our deeper desires often gets lost in adulthood, but travel is a way for us to play.
The Power of Connection and Belonging
Tania shares a beautiful story about helping a lost child at the Eiffel Tower, despite language barriers, illustrating how these unexpected moments of human connection often become the most meaningful aspects of travel. "We're all human together, and we can be human together if we come out from these protected places that we live in these safe routines," Tania reflects. She notes that while routines provide safety, they don't necessarily create the meaningful connections that make life vibrant.
Remaining curious and open to learning, Tania shares, are central for continuous development. She shares her current reading interests in neuroplasticity and quantum physics as a foundation for understanding how travel can provide the vehicle for lifelong growth. She also shared a beautiful practice of seeking wisdom from older women she meets while traveling: "I have taken to approaching them... if you were to give me one piece of advice, what would you tell me? What story of your life is worth sharing?"
As Tania reminds us, we have "30 more years to live than our foremothers did a hundred years ago," and the quality of those years is directly linked to our sense of belonging and connection to the world around us.
Whether through solo travel, group retreats, or simple moments of connection with strangers in foreign lands, the opportunity to step outside our normal routines and narratives provides invaluable opportunities for growth and self-discovery. As both Christine and Tania demonstrate through their work, these experiences aren't just about the destinations we visit, but about who we become — and un-become — along the journey.
“A deeper dive, greater exploration, the support and celebration of others: for me, that’s what happens when we travel. That’s what happens when you connect with new friends and other people on the same journey and you realize, there’s a lot of wisdom that gets shared when we stand in a collective together.”
Soul of Travel Episode 214 At a Glance
In this conversation, Christine and Tania discuss:
· The importance of investing in ourselves
· How travel helps us to learn more about ourselves, our beliefs and our behaviors and can show us how we may want to make changes in our daily lives
· Tania’s TEDx talk, Navigating the Messy Middle, and 5 lessons we can use to navigate change
· How travel is a great teacher in navigating change and getting comfortable with discomfort
Join Christine and Tania Carriere now for this soulful conversation.
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Related UN Sustainable Development Goals
Sustainable Development Goal #1: End poverty in all its forms everywhere.
Resources & Links Mentioned in the Episode
Learn more about Advivum Journeys and connect with Tania: www.advivumjourneys.ca.
Connect with Tania on your favorite social media network. Instagram / Facebook / LinkedIn
Listen to Tania’s first soulful conversation with Christine in Season 2, Episode 5 of the Soul of Travel Podcast.
About the Soul Of Travel Podcast
Soul of Travel honors the passion and dedication of people making a positive impact in the tourism industry. In each episode, you’ll hear the stories of women who are industry professionals, seasoned travelers, and community leaders. Our expert guests represent social impact organizations, adventure-based community organizations, travel photography and videography, and entrepreneurs who know that travel is an opportunity for personal awareness and a vehicle for global change.
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Soul of Travel Episode 214 Transcript
Women’s travel, transformational travel, sustainable travel, women leaders in travel, social entrepreneurship
Christine: Welcome to Soul of Travel podcast. I am your host, Christine. And today I'm very happy to be bringing back a guest who joined us way back in March of 2021, which now feels like maybe 10 years ago instead of four years ago. Um, but welcome to the podcast
for a return conversation. I have Tanya Carriere and she is the founder of Advivum Journeys. Um, and I think we have a great conversation in store. So thank you for joining me.
Tania: Hey, Christine, it has it has been a long time. You know, time is not just the days on the calendar, but the, the length of experience lived and we have lived through a lot since 2021. so I'm so happy to be back here.
Christine: And it's really fun too, because when we talk, that was still very much the like beginning of this journey for the podcast.
So it feels
like it's
come a long way and, um, yeah, you were
one of those first people that I kind of met out in the world that I was like, Oh, I can't wait to bring your perspective on.
Travel to the podcast and then since then, you know, we've kind of woven back and forth and seen each other and then I know recently we both kind of
were like, wait, I think it's time to do this again. And so, um, yeah, I'm really grateful for the universe to just plant that idea in
our mind at the same
time.
And here we
are. For those of you joining us for this conversation, we're not going to go into Tanya's backstory and kind of talking about her business from the standpoint that you don't know anything about it. Um, you can definitely go back to episode 96 to hear more cause we
have so much to get
into. I don't want to
repeat
anything. But I
do really quickly want
you to just share a
little bit
about ad vivum journeys and then we'll dive in deeper.
Tania: Yeah. So, Advivum Journeys, um, comes out of a passion that I have.
To discover a new place and to discover a new sense of self. In a new place. And that's why I realized I got hooked on travel so young and why I'm such an avid traveler. And that sense of curiosity and possibility, the chance to change a narrative.
So in other words, yeah, I understand my life and my context. And what's around me, but as soon as I go somewhere else, all of that is kind of a blank slate and new. And that's something that I just love that feeling of. So it gives them journeys is about bringing people on those kinds of experiences who want to not only just.
See somewhere new, but actually be someone new and you get to play when you travel you get to do that You get to reinvent your story and you get to decide when you go home. How much of that am I gonna keep? You know how much of that is gonna become the new me and how much of that was just fun for there and I had A chance to explore that character and and now I'm gonna go back to a different version so VVM Journeys runs retreats and And we like to play .
. . .
Christine: parts of yourself or remembering parts of yourself that get lost in the day to day shuffle, like, that is something I
feel like is a really
constant theme,
especially for women.
I
feel like
when we
take these solo travel or these group travel experiences, like, we can just Glide back into ourself with this singular self identity and not business owner and mother and daughter and all the different things.
It's just like this time to
Tania: . Bye bye. .
Christine: it was fun. But now I realize that's
not
maybe who I want to be
right now.
But
I, I think this is such a, this.
Place of
play
and like
auditioning selves is a really fun part of travel
Tania: Absolutely. I mean, I, I remember the first time I went to France. That's what really grabbed me.
You know, cause I was,
I was in all the things that were happening to me and I was feeling a lot of pressure around trying to find work and pressure around my personal life and making decisions there and na na na na na na.
And I showed up and I was like, I don't think I'm all that fun. You know, I'm a lot of great things. I know I'm a lot of great things, but I don't think I'm all that fun right now. Like, I think I'm, I'm under the weight of being serious and, and professional and making decisions, and they're going to have lifelong impacts.
And I looked around me and I was like, no one here knows that. No one here knows that this is the summer that I'm going to decide all these things. And I'm envious of that woman who's just sitting over there at a cafe by herself, bold as brass, legs crossed, enjoying, you know, the, the French, um, people and the sound and the fountain.
And I want to be her. I want to be her. She's just laughing and, and I thought, well, why don't you just go be her? Like, who here is going to stop you? And who here is going to say, Oh, Tanya, you know, you're in the middle of these important decisions. Do you really have time to stop and have a little red wine?
Like, you know, no one. It's the freedom of no back story. And then I realized, well, all that weight and that pressure was actually just me, in my head, on my shoulders.
There really isn't, you know, a whole committee standing around me every day going, Ooh,
you know, you have to be more serious.
It was a real opening for me.
And after that, I was like, Hey, you know, I think I need to cut French Tanya a little slack. Like she gets to come out and play a little more often now. And so, yeah, that idea, we can create that spaciousness. And it's a practice. Once you learn how to do it. I don't have to go to France every time I need to bring her to life.
I just have to remember, uh, I remember that experience of what it was. So now how am I going to do it today? What am I going to do to bring her back into this situation? Back into whatever's going on? And I work with a lot of people. They ask for simple things, like,
I used to be happy.
Christine: .
Tania: hard, or you know, whatever the thing is, like, sometimes, it's the little things, like, laughter that kind of drop off the edge, you know, and It's hard in your everyday to just go, Okay, I'm going to schedule 10 minutes for laughter now.
I'm going to be, you know, I'm going to be more humorous, or I'm going to be more lighthearted. And I think, gosh, no, if you can take yourself away for two days, or a week, or two weeks, or you know, whatever's available to you. You can experience a different tempo and a different pace and then you can hear the sound of yourself laughing and then you're like, I remember.
I remember what this feels like. And that makes it transformative. That's why you can bring it back, because it's actually a recall of something that's already in you. It's rarely a new learning, you know? It's more like, oh yeah, I have that awareness again.
Christine: Mm hmm. Yeah, I love that because I do think too that it's, you know, people talk about transformational travel and like, you know, kind of becoming something
new or someone new,
but really
it's, I feel like it's,
really this
excavation. And like
you've said, it's. Like, you, this
was in you, it just was buried,
Tania: .
Christine: there's these expectations, but
Tania: very much. .
Christine: To like,
Tania: .
. .
Christine: reach
to get to
that, um,
that release, that space of, of freedom.
Tania: Yeah, you know, and you mentioned solo travel, which
I am a
big believer in, and that's a place where people have a lot of those expectations and scripts
around why they can't do it. It's so fascinating. It's like, I can't. Why? Often we can't answer. Because it's scary? Because I am not allowed? I'm not supposed to want to go by myself?
I should bring my partner? My goodness, of course I'm obligated to bring my kids. Or, you know, like, all of these things come up. And it's, it's one of those perfect examples of, yeah, right? All of those reasons down on a page. And then Is it really, really true or is that just the narrative that we were taught?
That we were taught as women, you know, that we were taught as responsible social beings that we should always maintain the priority of others and the responsibility of others before our own, um, regeneration. And, and, I just, and I know you've seen the same thing with everybody that you've interviewed and, and that you've met on your travels.
You know, once you realize, actually when I give myself permission to lean into my own exploration, it is the thing that fuels everybody else's sustenance and change. Because the reality is we are all living among, amidst change and through change. And we are changing,
Christine: Mhm.
Tania: right? And so, where else are you going to go build your own sense of resilience and possibility?
And that's what's needed in order to support everyone else. So, big advocate for solo travel. And I'm just, I'm, I'm, I know we share that. . .
Christine: not avoidable. So it's a lesson that's important, right? Like the better you get at change, the better you get at everything because it's so important. Um, and as you were talking about, you know, the shoulds and the things, the barriers that are standing in our way. There's two different directions so I want to start here. I'm reading You Can Heal Your Life by Louise Hay which is a you know an oldie but a goodie. one of the very
first exercises is taking a piece of paper and writing you
should on the
top and then just
like writing all your shoulds and like really being honest.
Tania: .
Christine: really
Tania: .
.
Christine: at
first your
body is going to resist this, like they resist change.
Tania: Yeah. .
Christine: you keep
getting new awarenesses about
yourself and how
you think you need to show up
and
And then you'll
evolve little and
then there'll be another
pile of shoulds that you need to examine.
Tania: Absolutely.
And it's a part of our awareness training, but also our resilience training. You know, you said
change brings about discomfort. Discomfort is not bad. Discomfort is the moment that precedes momentum, that precedes action, that precedes a knowing and awareness as something new. And we need discomfort.
For a lot of things to emerge and, um, but most of us run from it, you know, we run immediately and try and make it better and it's, we know it, that's where often the magic moments happen when you travel, right? I mean, it's sort of that discomfort of I'm kind of lost. I don't know where I am. I'm not on the right track.
I'm late for my check in time with my Airbnb host. They're going to be all upset. I, I now look like an idiot standing here with my suitcase, having done the same, you know, circle three times, and everybody's watching, and that's very uncomfortable. It's very uncomfortable. And it's interesting to live through that and go, okay, and the sun is shining and I'm good.
And then somebody walks up to you and says, Hey, can I, can I help? And you instantly make a connection, even if it's for only two minutes. And that reminds you that people are human and loving around the world. And it's not scary. And they're there to help you because they want you to have a good time in their city.
And suddenly discomfort. Has allowed me to discover connection, which I couldn't have discovered without it, you know, it was the precursor for it. So, I'm really attentive, and as I say that, I'm, you know, I'll confess, I hate discomfort like everybody else. You know, like, it's not like you get better at liking it.
I think you just I just get better at naming it and going it's okay, it's okay. You know, this plate of food that arrived is not what I expected. I'm not familiar with these ingredients. It's just a moment of discomfort and okay. And try it, enjoy it, or don't. And that's fine too. I learned something there.
And there's always, you know, breakfast tomorrow morning. You know, where we can redress whatever's happened here. So. I am on a mission to have people just feel a little bit better about that kind of
feeling of messiness. It's like, yeah, who said mess was entirely bad?
Christine: Yeah, and I definitely think it's that label, like we try to avoid and discomfort and chaos and everything like the plague because of control, which we could probably talk about later too. Um, yet, yeah, it's unavoidable and it's so it's just being able to. I'm going to be talking about, uh, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um,
Um,
Um,
Um,
Tania: . . .
Christine: to get out of the
way
Tania: Yeah, absolutely. And it is,
it is rescripting and retraining and, and, and you're right. It is often the illusion
of control and expectation. You know, I wanted my flight to leave on time. I had that expectation. Well, that's lovely. I, I, I encourage that expectation. I hope my flights leave on time too.
And when I see the announcement come out, I I have to learn very quickly. It can either sit in the irritation and the discomfort of, this is not happening as I expected it to, or go, wow, deep breath. Good thing I am super prepared.
Christine: Mm hmm.
Tania: Good thing! I've got this great book, and I've got a seat, and there's probably somebody here with a really interesting life story that I can start to get to know, and it's, it's, it's about changing the expectation, not changing the, the context, because we do not have control over so many things, even though we wish we did.
Christine: Yeah Well, and then the other part of this before we kind of went down this path you had been talking a little bit about Um, and resistance. And when you were in the context of solo travel, like all the reasons why we can't do this. And I did want to talk a little bit about investing in ourselves because I know this is a, something as business owners and something as, you know, teachers and, and people who want to guide people on this internal journey, like the very first thing we have to do is get someone to say yes. And you know, that's. Um, can we talk a little bit about maybe, you had said something to me that, you know, this is just a choice to be made. Like, there are all of these obstacles that we And they are, are real or like are narrative and yet there's still a choice to be made.
So can you, yeah,
just let's talk
a little bit about what that
looks like maybe for people as
they
try
to examine
why they
maybe don't say yes to themselves.
You can press
Tania: Yeah,
Christine: 2, 3,
Tania: yeah, I mean, there
Christine: 8,
Tania: we, we, we all have so many reasons.
Christine: 19,
20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25,
Tania: And I
Christine: 31,
Tania: fundamentally think that the, the,
Christine: 40, 41,
Tania: The
fundamental question for people is what is pulling me?
What is compelling me.
What is that little voice desire? You know, because all of these
reasons that we shouldn't are out here and stacking up. Can we get clear on what this sensation is?
And we, if you watch, you know, kids, they're still very in tune with following that sensation, that impulse. Right? I really want an ice cream. Why? You know, they, they, they do because it's a moment of fun. It's a moment of pleasure. It's a moment of sensation of taste. It's a moment of whatever it is for them.
And they're willing to articulate that. And I think we, we teach ourselves or we are taught to let go of following those impulses. So I'm always really curious, like, what was the impulse? before the thought process happened, you know, before everything's stacked up. Can you just value that regardless of whether what you do with it, can you just value that you have that impulse?
I just have this impulse. To be on my own for a little bit. Great! Just notice that. I just have this impulse to shake things up. Just notice that. You know, name those things and don't lock them down. I think that's the very, you know, the very first thing. To be able to choose yourself, you know. In the end, everything is a choice.
And when we say that our lives are too busy and we try and squeeze wellness, and I'm guilty of this too, we squeeze it into like, what, sometimes I've been known to do like 10 minute wellness chunks. I'm like, hmm, yeah, you know, that, that is, that is good for emergency rations. You know, that, that, that, that's fine.
Sometimes you have to pull that on, but that's not wellness. You know, like, that's like breathing and gasps, and it will, it will keep you alive. But that's not vitality and thriving, you know. So, if, if we're really leaning into my well being, then I have to be in a way that is well. And that's gonna take, you know, more time, deeper dive, greater exploration.
The support and celebration of others. And for me, that's what happens when we travel. That's what happens when you connect with new friends and other people on the same journey and you realize, Oh, actually, there's a lot of wisdom that gets shared when we stand in a collective together. And it's not the same wisdom that gets shared in your unit because that's a rehearsed script.
That's something different, you know, and it's important, but different.
Christine: Um, uh, I'm like, Oh, two good things there. And like all these books that I've been reading, I just feel like I want to be like, and to cite why this feels real and this, I'm like, I just read this book. Uh, we won't go there, but I
was just thinking,
you know, of two parts is
when you were saying, okay,
what was the thing you heard
that made you look for this experience?
Like, I think that,
Tania: . .
Christine: after it.
and I wish
we all asked ourselves that before we, like, hit by
on something,
right? Because
it, it changes
the energy of, of the thing. And.
Tania: Okay. Bye bye.
Christine: this is the experience I have. Right. And then I think, okay, and then who else can do my job as parent, but me and who else can do. And so then all these things, these are
the things that start to get
in our way of that.
Right. And I
have literally gone through this week, this, this week, So this
is
a fresh
So also I'm still not a pro. I did have more
Tania: .
Christine: the air. First, because I
Tania: . .
Christine: months. It's started. Already. And I feel like that's part of the process. I really love, especially with the containers that we work to create is recognizing that that is a part of the experience.
And, you know, you're not getting that when you go on Travelocity and book something like I think it's important to understand those. Inner workings now and
already be
healing that so that when you
get there, you don't land with like
guilt and shame, like
you've already dealt with
those so you can be ready for what's happening now.
Tania: Yeah,
and you know that guilt and shame, those are stories,
those are narratives,
those are teachings.
Right? You didn't come into the world with that baked in you. Someone taught you. Someone taught you that, um, you have certain obligations. I'm making it up because we haven't had this conversation, but you have certain obligations.
And your obligations, um, should be primary and your self should be secondary. And your obligations when met should look like something. Your parenting should look like you being present on the scene 24 7. I'm making it up, you know, but that's a That's a story, it's a narrative. Is it an absolute truth?
Nope. There are many, many beautiful ways that people parent, and that's part of what we discover when we travel, right? When you're in different cultures and you bear witness to how they love their families and their children differently, but equally as well, you kind of open up this idea, oh, there isn't just one way, right?
So the rule is something I can break. If I still aspire to the outcome, so then I have to ask myself, so if I'm traveling, you know, how am I still meeting my outcome? How am I still inspiring and sculpting my children to be beautiful, contributing human beings in this world? Ah, well, I can answer that, because you investing in yourself.
Saying, hey, be prepared to be a person that's constantly learning and growing and wanting more and giving more. Be a person that's constantly willing to challenge the narrative that they're being given in their home country by discovering something else. Be a person that's willing to make connections, visit others, and come home and teach and share with the generosity of new learnings.
See, I can build your business case for you. It's like, yeah, yes, I want to be that parent, you know.
Christine: Yeah. I, I mean, I love it so much and, and like I said, obviously like I can kind of get myself through those, but I still have those moments, so I just love for people listening. Just to think about that and whether that yes to yourself is, you know, investing in a marketing person for
your business or
whether that's like taking
a weekend off or
what, like there's these conversations that happen
so quick, we don't
notice them.
so just being able to grab ahold of it. And like we said in
Tania: Okay. Okay. Hello. How are you?
Christine: people on this podcast, when I asked them who inspired them to travel the world, it was, you know, my aunt who sent me postcards or it was my grandma who told me these stories or it was my father when he talked about his time in the military.
So all of that was us just witnessing someone else's. Travel and growth and it completely changed the trajectory of our own So I think that that's a super powerful thing and I love that you just Made that even more important for me, so that I can, you know, I can use that in my own internal conversation. so I wanted to get to talking with you about, um, the messy middle. And I was looking on your website as I was preparing, uh, for this conversation. And you have a retreat coming up that's the reimagined self. And one of the questions, like, in the little Description is who do I dare to be now? And I think those two things, like awareness of call the messy middle and the question
of
do I dare to be
now, like that's
a whole nother journey.
And
I would
guess because of where
I'm at in my own life, it's a journey that many of my
peers
Tania: be here.
Christine: and
friends are.
In so I
want to talk with you
about about
this and what this
means in your life and what this means in the context of travel.
Tania: Yeah, I mean the messy middle is
that place between
If we talk about it personally, you know, who I know myself to be, I am this person, and then who I am about to become, and there's this, it's almost like, you know, when you see a trapeze artist, and they're on this, this bar, and then they're going to reach for that bar, and then there's this moment where they're on no bar, you know, and you're like, ooh, I hope you grab the next one, and we all sort of feel that moment.
And we feel it in life too. And it comes many, many times. It's not just one middle. It's not just one transition. You know, you went from, I don't know, single person to being a partner with someone. It's like, ah, who am I as a partner? I don't really know yet. I know who I am as a single person. And now I'm feeling even more attached to her because It feels secure, you know, I got a hold of this bar, that one is yet, or if you're becoming a mom, you know, or a parent, or a step parent, it's like, wow, or job transition, or you retire, or, or, or, or, I mean, there's just so many of them, and, and it's that, we're talking about discomfort, it's that time where it's like, nothing is really for sure, I don't really know for sure anymore.
But I think when we don't know for sure, the flip side of that is, Hey, there's nothing locked in, so I get to choose. I get to discover. I get to discover now. You know, I have this one client who said, you know, I knew what my kids needed from me when they were in high school. Like, I figured it out. I figured out how to be that parent.
But now they're in university and they're doing really well. And I, I don't know who I am anymore to them. You know, and I'm like, that's awesome. Who, who would you dream of being like, that's awesome. If you can embrace the discovery portion of it, or the other classic one is I've finished this career. You know, I'm done with this focus.
I want to do something new with my life. Not necessarily retire as in not do anything, although it might be that. I want a new pivot. I just don't know what it is yet. I'm like, well, it's pretty hard to discover that when you're hanging on to that other bar because the new one is out there and you won't know it until you actually just, okay, I'm letting go and hopefully I grab a new thing.
So that transition, I think, is quite magical. It's quite magical, but yeah, it's terrifying. You're, you know, however many feet up there going, Oh my goodness! You know? I hope this works.
Christine: Yeah, my visceral reaction, just as you're describing it, both in terms of trapeze because I am terrified of heights and that, like, clinging to the thing, even if you don't even want it anymore, like, because you know there's that space between, um, yeah, it's, it's such uh, an uncomfortable moment and I, I love Kind of trying to embrace that as not necessarily fear but possibility, like you said, it doesn't, it's not because of the uncertainty or it's that everything is possible, that's maybe more scary than like knowing, okay, I'm going from step 1 to step 2, like,
and you know step
2 is harder or
different, but there's already the step there,
it's like when you're like in
step 1A7,
and you're like, I don't know A7. Um, and our, our brains have a very hard time. I mean, I think that's part of why you're to survival, right? Is to know what's coming. It's literally how we survive, um, and create strategies to navigate. And yet like the, kind of like you were saying, when you're lost and you you magically find the person you were meant to meet, you only get there by letting go. And
It really
is where the coolest things
happen
every time,
and yet, like we
have to fight ourselves so hard to,
to like hang
out there.
Tania: Absolutely. And it really, you know, it sounds like we're making up the story that that place is the place of magic, but
it's what most people come home and share after they travel. It's like, oh, you know, I met this awesome person on the bus, or, you know, I, I lost my camera and, and I was upset about it and so someone, um, actually returned it to me and I couldn't believe how kind people are.
Or, you know, it's those moments that, that actually catch us unaware and they catch our breath and we go, wow. Wow, the world really can be that. And that moment that I was telling you about where this lady came over and, you know, said, Are you lost and can I help you? She ended up being quite a chatterbox, and she was an elderly woman, and started telling me about the whole history of the square that I was in.
And, you know, I was on this, You know, direct path to try and check into my Airbnb. And in the end, I arrived, I think, two hours late. We texted the person and she was like, no, no. And she actually started sharing her food with me and telling me where I was. And I thought. This is like someone just sent me my own private guide to understand where I am in this moment.
And somehow sharing a moment with her, I felt it to be a more important objective than anything else. That somehow she was getting something and I was getting something and I mean, I wish I could tell her, you know, that's happened ages ago, like, decades later. Hey, I'm still talking about you. And I remember the story about your granddaughter's wedding and about this courtyard.
And I could take people back to that courtyard with the same excitement. And
that's the kind of magic that awaits when we just, okay, let it go and see what will happen.
Christine: Yeah, and I, I mean, I really, I love that in travel and agree that it's, it's, never the thing that was on your itinerary most lands and is the story you tell. And in fact, when I.
I'm going to be doing a lot
of work with people to help them
discover their travel
values. That's
some of the first
questions is, okay,
tell me
like three of your favorite moments in travel. And so
Tania: . .
Christine: And
I, if I,
tell the whole story in detail,
which I will not now, I
cry every time.
And this happened.
24 years ago. And again, like, I wish I
Tania: . .
Christine: and like, all these things.
And that,
there a moment
like they're like,
remember how
great it was to
play with her and that
her grandma bought it,
brought us fresh baked
goods every day. And like, they felt like they moved into these people's
Tania: .
Christine: and they, they like gave the little girls some shoes that we'd outgrown because we were traveling for a long period of time.
And I'm like, well, we were just carrying shoes. You can't wear with us. And like. They
just think that's a normal way
to travel, which, you know, you and
I both know that doesn't happen all the time
for many people, but
it was that
thing we didn't look for, and also it's usually connection, which I
Tania: Yeah.
Christine: is so interesting, is Is because we're such, we live in such a disconnected society that real connection and I think also like you said, or you know, we've said in past conversation is like this idea of humanity coming to life or this very raw connection is just essential to like healing and understanding and I think because it's such a contrast to how we live Often, unless we're lucky to be like you and me and we like seek out this
constantly, but
like
it's pivotal and it, and
it, it can't
happen in the space.
It always happens in the space between the
two things you thought you were there to do.
Tania: Yeah, absolutely. It's so funny. My Eiffel Tower
store. One of my favorite moments is around the Eiffel Tower, but it wasn't about seeing the Eiffel Tower. There was that lost little girl. That I spotted, and she didn't speak English, and she didn't speak French, which are my two languages. And, um, and you know, there's something very precious about a little one that's lost, and not scaring them, and helping them find their mom, and hoisting her up, and trying to be, you know, not, scary to her and encourage her to call out for her mom and dad and not scare the mom and dad when they see that I've hoisted her up so that she can see everyone and, and they didn't speak English or French and there was a flurry of, of emotion and tears and gratitude and somehow, yeah, like I feel like now somehow you just get connected to the fact that.
We're all human together, and we can be human together if we come out from these protected places that we live in these safe routines, which are safe, but don't necessarily give us these little tentacles into one another.
Christine: Yeah. I feel like, um, like living, I'm like, where's the words for this? What I, what I'm feeling that it's, there's different between like living and
Being alive, right?
Like, and Like,
between having a vibrant
life and
passing time.
And I think
those are the things too that, like, our soul
Tania: . . .
Christine: you know,
in Colorado,
like, she's like,
all the houses are like,
brown
and cream and white. And you look at pictures of like
Tania: .
Christine: and she's like, look
Tania: Okay.
Christine: Or ask like
why
you're
Tania: Okay.
Christine: this industry and what are you doing?
And I'm like, it's this,
Tania: . . . . .
Christine: thing and, and there's not the best. language for it. And yet I know you and I put ourselves out there over and over again, just like pleading to give people this gift. Like it's a real treasure and it feels like a treasure to witness it and
to give it. And,
I, I just wanted to kind of,
yeah, express my
gratitude for the
people that we know
in the world
who are doing that because there's many.
Tania: Yes, and I think you and I both experienced and held groups and that's why we do what we do, you know.
to create that space of belonging.
And we've seen after, you know, after any retreat, it's what people most want to carry home with them is the sense of belonging that they have with the people that they've spent their time with and the people that they've met on the journey.
And we know there's a lot of science behind belonging now. It's not just a nice to have or a whimsical thing. We've extended our lifespan by 30 years. over the past century. Like 30 years. You and I have 30 more years to live than our foremothers did a hundred years ago. That's a lot of time. And what is most directly linked to making those 30 years?
It's vibrant. It's belonging. That's the thing that gets pegged. If you have that sense of connection and so connecting to your, your pod, your home pod, awesome. But it's more than that. It's connecting to the world. It's connecting to others. And it's the experience of creation of connection that we know actually contributes to that renewed sense of belonging.
And, and I can't think of a better way than that. You know, traveling, traveling with groups, traveling on a retreat, traveling where there is intention. For that to be created, which is different because I'm sure you've gone traveling as am I, you know, to places that don't really facilitate an easy sense of connection and fine.
You know, that that's something else, but that moment where you do have that knit sense of togetherness, there's nothing that feels us more.
Christine: Yeah, I, I agree. And that's, I think that's one of the things that I love about small group travel is that intimacy and that connection. And also something that you kind of have to experience to understand the value of, but I remember a retreat I ran a few years ago and we had met several times virtually beforehand and
I had my coaching
calls, but also
to.
build
connection we got there
and like the
hotel everybody
arrived in before the
journey even began. I think if we never left there, it would have been enough
Tania: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Christine: but, um, it just feels like a real, a really special privilege. And I also was thinking, you know, as you mentioned the 30 years longer, also kind of, if you look at the messy middle of our lives, then that's often, you know, let's say forties and fifties.
Right. And
also
for many
women, this is a time
of like empty nesting or career transitions, or maybe
even losing a partner. And so then like, This messy
Tania: Mm
Christine: connection.
outside of, They're home are themselves. And I'm like, Oh, I see now it's because like this built in point of
purpose and connection
has
dissolved in many ways. And
we need that. And
I.
think
it's amazing how many people are
focusing on creating
that now.
Tania: hmm. Especially around women, you know, there's an archetype
for a 30 year old woman, you know, she's a creator of some sort. So she's either creating her family, she's creating her career, she's, she's in creation mode, it's a high action mode. That's when our brains are retraining all the pieces of data. We know that this is on the stove, this child is here, this has to be picked up, this document is due, like it's boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
It's, it's an archetype. Right? It's a very strong female archetype. And then we move in midlife to a different archetype. We move into the wise woman archetype. And the wise woman is the woman who attaches herself to intuition. She has the ability to actually see, um, patterns, much bigger scopes. So she's now thinking about how are my actions influencing the planet, and how is it influencing my community, and what can I do to create this global healing and this bigger connection.
We get concerned about communities. We are there looking at bigger questions for ourselves and for one, one another. And so wise women, um, often work in pods and tribes, right, all together. Um, whereas creator women are very much focused on the delivery. So I think that is an archetypal shift that often happens for us in midlife.
And where we say, actually, I want to knit together the narratives and think, you know, we actually used to sit a long time and knit together. There was the knitting of stories and the knitting of traditions and the knitting of medicines and the knitting of no knowledge. And we want to return to that. Um, so I think that also gets discovered as we enter into this phase and we go through midlife.
And that's a big part of, Reimagining ourself. It's like there was nothing wrong with the previous self. It's not a rejection of who I was. It's not an acknowledgement of, Ooh, not her anymore. It's a chance to sort of breathe and reimagine and say, Actually, I am emerging again into a new version. And given that we have these extra 30 years, there's probably a few reimaginings that are going to happen, right?
I mean, who you and I will have the opportunity to be in our 60s and our 70s and our 80s is totally unscripted. It is unscripted. We cannot yet imagine what will be available to us at that time, and so we cannot imagine the person that we will want to be at that time. It's just not possible. Um, but hopefully it's exciting.
Hmm.
Christine: Yeah. I, I do think it's also interesting, like, I feel like there's kind of like a plan that gets you to like 40 to 50, right? Like a societal plan that gets you there. Like you kind of know, like I should graduate high school and I should go to college and we're going to use all the shoulds, right? And I should get married and I should have two kids and I should, should, should, should. And then all of a sudden. Like, those dissolve too, so then there you are, like, reaching for the next thing, and it's not defined. Like, it is infinite, and, yeah,
I just, it's, it's,
so cool
And so scary at the same
time, and I, I
think we live in a kind of
a unique
time because we're, we're,
all these things are happening at the same moment.
Like
Tania: And um, Um, And I don't know if she has it. And I don't know if she has it. But anyway, So, um, So we're gonna have to get back to you two in a minute. Um, Oh, okay. So, um, So, um, You
Christine: women in our world. And I think, um, over and over, I just like, look at those women and think I cannot wait to be 60 or I cannot wait to be 70 and be that cool and that strong and that confident. And I don't, I was actually thinking about this as we were getting ready to talk today.
And I was like, I remember, When I was little and young and I looked at like the Golden Girls and this was my This is what I thought it was like to be 50 or I think they were even like in their 40s, right? And now I I I look and I'm like no they must have been in their 70s or 80s No so like I have like this own story that I have to constantly keep like wiping away of like is still just the beginning.
This is nowhere, is nowhere near what that looked like in my mind. Just keep embracing these
other women who
are showing the
possibility of a
way forward
with all of this strength and grace and
power.
Tania: Absolutely. I so totally agree. I think, I think
truly the best.
Emerges.
As, as we continue through, you know, that's, that's been my experience. So
Christine: Yeah.
Tania: I'm right. It continues that way.
Christine: Yeah. Um, all right. Well, I love this conversation. Like, we, we kind of hit on some of the things I planned and none of the things we planned, which I, I knew would be the perfect, um, the perfect, like, recipe for, for our time
together. um,
before we end, I
just
wanted to give
you the
opportunity to share a little
bit about what
you have coming
up.
And then we
also have our rapid fire questions to end our
conversation.
Tania: Yay, um, I, you know, 1st, I just
want to say, I am just, I just want to
encourage everyone
to feel.
Comfortable leaning into asking questions. Get rid of the notion that we're supposed to have it all figured out or that we're supposed to have ourselves all figured out or that we are one person. No, no, really no, and you thought you had it all figured out.
All of us did at 16. I know we all retorted to our parents or our caregivers, you know, like you're not the boss of me. I know what who I am now and Can you imagine having, you know, figured it out then? I mean, I don't want to be her, you know. She was glorious and missed so many things, you know, so
Asking questions and reimagining I think really is one of the greatest gifts that we can step into.
And, um,
I would invite anybody who is just curious about, you know, who else can I be? What more vibrancy can I bring to my life? Or, what new direction could I explore? Can I be honest about how I keep myself back? Or, what stories I tell that, that keep me safe instead of break, you know, stepping over the line?
Um, Those are great things to come to a retreat with because that's, you know, we do play that facilitates all of that travel that facilitates that discovery that allows for that newness to come about. And, um, I do have three retreats this year, but there are retreats ongoing every year. England, France, Quebec City, Baja, Mexico, where I am right now.
Um, so yeah, I would invite anybody just to come to the website, book a call to say hi. Um, because As you and I have confessed very publicly here, we both love connections.
I welcome anybody just to drop into my calendar with no agenda, um, and say hi, because they want to chat and talk about the messy metal or come on a retreat with me.
Christine: Yeah. And I also, I just wanted to share, cause this is one of the ways that initially after we met
that I was
able to keep sharing space with you as
you have like your mini retreats and they're
around things that I
think are really cool to
think about and ask questions about, like, how do I revive joy?
Uh, how do I fantasize? Like all these things that maybe we don't spend time, like you were saying, 10 minutes
of questioning is
And
10 minutes towards
this intentional focus
on my wellbeing is
probably not going to
get us there. And
I loved when I was able to join you for those conversations. So
Tania: Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
Christine: my jam.
Tania: I agree pack the questions in the suitcase. That's what's meant to come along with you. And
I would say, if you, if you already have the answer, you have to know that it was the person back there that answered that question. Right? So think about, like, if the, if the question is, what should I wear?
It's the 16 year old you that's answering and it's like, well, we need to update that because that that I don't want to live that out. You know, that's not the outfit for me anymore. It's also not that. Okay. The life for me anymore. It's not the aspiration, the way I want to express myself. So I need to be prepared to say, I don't know, and that's cool.
I will know. I'll merge into it. I'll discover it. And yes, thanks for reminding me about those mini retreats. So those are, um, virtual every month and they're free. They're just so that we can feel out one another and really just create what I think is the heartbeat that all of us want to be living in.
One that is supportive and appreciative and abundant.
Christine: Yeah, and I think like we create that over and over because it's a space we want to live in. And so we just keep holding that space for more and more people. So I
appreciate you doing
that. Okay.
Rapid fire ish. We'll, we'll have you the ish.
here for
us. I'm sure.
Um, What
What are you reading right now?
Um,
Tania: What am I reading? How the brain changes itself.
Um,
I'm really curious about
neuroplasticity and I just, I'm totally fascinated and I'm trying to couple that with some reading on quantum physics and how it relates to meditation and I gotta say it's blowing my brain. So if anybody's got that down, they please come in my calendar and give me a tutorial.
I love it. But I'm just sitting there going, wow, I got to reread this paragraph again,
Christine: Yeah, I was just telling my best friend, like, I kind of go through these peaks and valleys of where you're like, Ooh, I just consume, consume, consume all this information. And I, my mind's blowing all over the place. And then like, probably integration, I have to settle down and like, and I'm, I'm back, I'm headed towards one of those peaks again.
And it's, it's,
it's. fun, but It's
also so intense because
you're just like, Whoa,
that thing, that thing, that
thing. We're
living in that like
expansive explosive moment, um,
Tania: Oh,
Christine: you and I could
digress into a whole nother
conversation about that.
But,
um, okay,
the next, what is
always in your
suitcase or backpack when you travel?
Tania: I have a very definitive. So
probably like you,
carry on only even if I'm going for three months,
that's just the way I roll.
What is always, always in there? Um, Let's go for some, one of the more, my jewelry. There are a few favorite things, not necessarily expensive, not, you know, just like, favorite things, that, um, just kind of, I don't know, kind of help me zhuzh up a day.
Christine: Yeah.
And make
you feel
like you, wherever you
are.
Tania: Yeah.
Christine: Um, to sojourn,
um, to me means
to travel somewhere
as if you live
there. Where is somewhere that you would still love to sojourn?
Tania: Oh, gosh, that list is so long.
Um, the country of my heart is France. So every year that is an impulse that I cannot ignore. And I do not ignore and spend. I'm very luckily spend a couple months there. But right now I'm also super curious about Turkey. It just keeps whispering to me, and um, I had a most tantalizing 14 hours in Istanbul in a layover, and it was, it nearly killed me, like I nearly chose to miss my flight because I was, like even the airport is exciting.
It's one of the best airports I have ever been to, and I was like, Maybe I'll just, I'll just scuttlebutt the rest of my trip and kind of stay here. So, I think that one is, um, really calling to me right now.
Christine: Yeah.
Uh, what is
something you eat that
immediately connects you to a place you've
been?
Tania: Cheese. To France.
I just, yeah, that's an immediate
Christine: Yeah.
who was a person that
inspired or encouraged You
to set out to
travel the world?
Tania: You know, I think it was my dad.
Um, my dad,
um, was a very young dad. So, he was He and my mom were in university when I was born, and we were in university outside of their hometown, and then dad got a job as a geodetic engineer, and so we would travel, um, do a lot of road trips with him, and I think I learned very, very early on that moving and discovering, like moving, setting up, staying somewhere, discovering where we were, packing up, moving, and going somewhere else was a fascinating rhythm, you know, and I don't remember any fear.
I always remember mom and dad giving me this sense of adventure as we were doing that. And I think that just got baked into me.
Christine: I love that.
Uh, if you could
take an
adventure with
one person,
fictional or real,
alive or past, who would it
be?
Tania: Oh my God. I think I would have to rent out a 747 cause I could fill that. I could fill that with people. Oh my gosh. If I could fill that with people. Who comes to mind right now? Um, You know, we were talking about, um, women, and wise women, and so this is a sort of answer, so I hope you'll permit it, but right now, I am super fascinated by women who are older than me, who often go unnoticed, and right now, even when I'm traveling, I'm noticing them and taking, I've had this now beautiful photo album of just these wonderful women who are in their own skin, living their life and clearly have stories to tell.
And I have taken to approaching them and saying, you know, would you Would you mind staying 30 more minutes at your table? Can I buy you another coffee or glass of wine? Or can I join you on your stroll around this pond? And can you just, just, if you were to give me one piece of advice, what would you tell me?
What story of your life is, is worth sharing? And, So it would be with just random people, wise women that I don't yet know. That's, that's who I would feel the plane with. And I'd be like, all right, I'm open. What am I meant to, what am I meant to learn now?
Christine: Yeah, I love that. And honoring that wisdom. I think that's, that's really important, um, and changing the narrative around the value of that wisdom. Um, I think. So that feels like something we're both aligned in adding to things that, that fuel our fire.
Um, okay.
The last question, as
you know,
soul of travel is a space for
celebrating women in the
travel industry.
Uh, who is one
woman that you admire and would like to recognize here?
Tania: Am I allowed to say you
Christine: You can,
Tania: Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely. And let, you know, not, not just in a
de facto way, but I really have a great appreciation for the depth of integrity and the depth of heart that you bring to this passion of yours, which is both about travel and about connection, but also about weaving a new narrative for all of us.
You know, to, to learn about the world and ourselves and so, yeah, I. I see you, we share, um, a little, a little stratosphere together, you know, we're in this space together, um, but we don't often get to be one on one or in conversation, but I see you orbiting, you know, in the same space, and I'm, it gives me a great sense of comfort, um, so thank you, I really do appreciate the work that you do and the voice that you have.
.
Christine: of time in between that is feels less rewarding. So it's always great to see that and have it mirrored and I appreciate it. So thank you so much for coming back and sharing your wisdom here on the podcast. And, um, hopefully part three will be. in our future. If anybody has any questions after listening, they can definitely reach out and share those.
I know we would love to come back even for a, maybe a quick chat. I have a new thing in my soul of travel beyond that's, um, uh, soulful stopovers, which are just like very short questions that are, you know, kind
of more to the point
than this lengthy
conversation.
Um, so
who knows, maybe someone
out there has something for
us.
but until then, much for being here.
Tania: Oh, my pleasure. Thank you so
much. I loved it.
Thank you.
You can find me on Facebook at Lotus Sojourns on Facebook, or join the Lotus Sojourns Collective, our FB community, or follow me on Instagram either @lotussojourns or @souloftravelpodcast. Stay up to date by joining the Lotus Sojourns mailing list. I look forward to getting to know you and hopefully hearing your story.
