Episode 109 - Chantal Potgieter, Themba Travel

Travel

Dec. 28

It is a way of traveling that is focused on experiencing the country, town, or specific location while connecting with the country’s history, people, food, and culture. Travel is not only about visiting places and taking pictures, but also about discovering new ideas and perspectives, a real investment in self.

Traveling does not only involve visiting exotic destinations, even taking a road trip around your home country can work wonders on your wellbeing.

Traveling to bucket-list destinations is about more than seeing sights and eating the local cuisine, it is a great way to meet new people. While traveling gives you a chance to relax and see the sights, traveling also allows you to soak up local culture and learn more about the world than you would ever be able to from a single book.

Traveling to new places allows you to get out of your comfort zone and try new experiences and challenges as you learn more about the world around you.

The people you meet along the way, and the experiences you get to share with friends, are the things that will stay with you long after you have left. Whether they are a local person or a bunch of like-minded travelers, the memories you have from interacting with others can be fleeting or life-changing.

Effective tourism development in communities is about providing visitors with an authentic, quality experience they will remember long afterward.

Christine’s guest today is Chantal Potgieter. Chantal is an Adventurer, Thinker and Connector.

Chantal was born on the Cape Flats, the first in her family to achieve higher education. She completed a degree in Youth Development. With extensive work as Youth and Community Development Practitioner within South Africa, she is also the founding member of KC Community Radio in Paarl, South Africa.

She combined her love for travel, volunteering work in communities, and operational skills learned working in a travel company to start Themba Travel.

Themba Travel is based in the UK and offers South African journeys that inspire hope. Themba Travel specializes in Educational Expeditions, Volunteering, and Leisure Holidays.

Chantal is a speaker and author of Travel to Transform as well as an advocate for sustainable tourism. Wife and mother, she is passionate about restoring dignity and advocates for women's empowerment in the tourism industry.

In this conversation, Christine and Chantal talked about the importance of radio, storytelling and community to her as a child, and how that continues to shape the experiences she offers. She also shares how she wants to tell the story of South Africa by amplifying the voices of local communities, and bringing travelers to connect with people in places beyond the most well-known destinations.

Chantal discusses the importance of bringing communities into the travel design process, and helping them to determine what they are proud to showcase, letting them take full ownership of their community and their story.

Join Christine now for this soulful conversation with Chantal Potgieter.

In this episode, Christine and Chantal discuss:

The power of radio, storytelling and community and what that means for Chantal
What is Themba Travel?
The importance of creating a space for men and women to be able to be themselves
Why Chantal wants to tell the story of South Africa by amplifying the voices of local communities
The importance of bringing communities into the travel design process
When you slow down and connect with people, you’ll have a richer experience

Resources & Links Mentioned in the Episode

To learn more about Themba Travel, head over to https://thembatravel.com/

Check out Themba Travel’s Blog - THEMBA TRAVEL

Follow Themba Travel on Instagram and LinkedIn

Join me for my Women’s Wilderness and Yoga Retreat in Alaska in March 2023!

We’ll be traveling 63 miles north of the Arctic Circle to stay at Arctic Hive, owned by my friend Mollie Busby and her husband Sean. This boutique property nestled in the Brooks Range is way off the beaten path and also off grid. We’ll stay in beautiful cabins built by hand by our hosts, practice yoga in their yoga dome lovingly referred to as The Hive, with gorgeous views of the surrounding nature.

We’ll explore the wilderness by snowshoe and dog sled, connect with members of the local community to learn about living in this remote environment, enjoy daily yoga practice and vegan meals all while keeping our eye out for the beautiful northern lights that like to show off their magic this time of year.

I only have 6 spaces for this unique adventure and a few are already taken. Hop over to the Lotus Sojourns website to book yours today.

Please share this experience with anyone you know would love this restorative adventure.

Want to learn more, you can listen to my Soul of Travel conversation, episode 67 with Mollie Busby

Visit www.lotussojourns.com/journeys to join this unique travel experience today.

To watch this interview on YouTube HERE.

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WE WON A BESSIE AWARD! The Bessie Awards recognize the achievements of women and gender-diverse people making an impact in the travel industry. To view the complete list of this year’s winners, visit bessieawards.org.

About the Soul Of Travel Podcast

Soul of Travel honors the passion and dedication of the people making a positive impact in tourism. In each episode, you’ll hear the story of women who are industry professionals and seasoned travelers and community leaders who know travel is more than a vacation. It is an opportunity for personal awareness and it is a vehicle for change. We are thought leaders, action takers, and heart-centered change makers.

The guests work in all sectors of the tourism industry. You'll hear from adventure-based community organizations, social impact businesses, travel photographers and videographers, tourism boards and destination marketing organizations, and transformational travel experts. They all honor the idea that travel is more than a vacation and focus on sustainable travel, eco-travel, community-based tourism, and intentional travel.

These conversations are meant to educate, inspire and create community. They are directed to new travelers and seasoned travelers, as well as industry professionals and those who are curious about a career in travel.

If you want to learn about new destinations, types of travel, or how to be more intentional or live life on purpose, join Christine Winebrenner Irick for soulful conversations with her community of fellow travelers exploring the heart, the mind, and the globe. These conversations highlight what tourism really means for the world.

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Credits. Christine Winebrenner Irick (Host, creator, editor.) Chantal Potgieter (Guest). Original music by Clark Adams. Editing and production by Rayna Booth.

Transcript

KEYWORDS

community, people, travel, create, south africa, story, conversation, women, experience, place, share, listening, feel, moment, world, chantal, space, travelers, business, relationships

Christine Winebrenner Irick 00:08

Thank you for joining me for soulful conversations with my community of fellow travelers, exploring the heart, the mind and the globe. These conversations highlight what travel really means for the world. Soul of Travel honors the passion and dedication of the people making a positive impact in tourism. Each week, I'll be speaking to women who are tourism professionals, world travelers and leaders in their communities will explore how travel has changed them and how that has rippled out and inspired them to change the world. These conversations are as much about travel as they are about passion, and living life with purpose, chasing dreams, building businesses, and having the desire to make the world a better place. This is a community of people who no travel is more than a vacation. It is an opportunity for personal awareness, and it is a vehicle for change. We are thought leaders, action takers, and heart centered change makers I'm Christine Winebrenner Irick. And this is the Soul of Travel.

Born on the cape flats, Chantal Potgieter, was the first in her family to achieve higher education. She completed a degree in youth development, with extensive work as a youth and community development practitioner in South Africa. She is also a founding member of KC community radio in Pearl South Africa. She combined her love for travel, volunteering, work in communities and operational skills learned working in a travel company to start Themba Travel. Themba Travel is based in the UK and offers South African journeys that inspire hope. Themba Travel specializes in educational expeditions, volunteering and leisure holidays. Chantal is a speaker and author of travel to transform, as well as an advocate for sustainable tourism.

She is passionate about restoring dignity and advocates for women's empowerment in the tourism industry. Chantal is a gifted storyteller, and I was easily transported along her journeys as she shared them during this conversation. We talked about the importance of radio, storytelling and community to her as a child, and how that continues to shape the experiences she offers. She also shares how she wants to tell the story of South Africa by amplifying the voices of local communities, and bringing travelers to connect with people in places beyond the most well known destinations. She discusses the importance of bringing communities into the travel design process, and helping them to determine what they are proud to showcase, letting them take full ownership of their community and their story.

I hope you'll sit back and enjoy the beauty of my soulful conversation with Chantal Potgieter. Welcome to the soul of travel Podcast. Today I'm very happy to be joined by a Chantal puck heater. And she is the director of Amba travel. And we met through just the beautiful magic of the universe. We somehow found each other on LinkedIn and started following each other. I don't even remember now who reached out to who but we had a beautiful conversation. And I knew right away that I wanted to be able to bring your journey to the soul of travel. So Chantal, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for joining me today.

04:04

Thank you, Christine. Such a pleasure being here. And yeah, just so looking forward to chatting with you and sharing a little bit about myself and what we do.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 04:15

Yeah, thank you. Well, to begin our conversation. Part of how we connected is both of our beliefs and the power of travel to transform. And I know that your company is focused on offering travel experiences that are founded on education and community and talk about health and wildlife and really bring all of those components into the travelers experiences. So I can't wait to talk to you more about that. But before we start, I would love to kind of paint a picture. When we first talked, we were talking about the power of storytelling and one of the Things that you had said to me was how powerful podcasting is because you can just sit and listen. And there's no image that gets in the way of what is happening, like your mind gets to create the story and the narrative and nothing is put in front of you, you just kind of become your own story. And part of that was related to your experience growing up in South Africa and listening to the radio, and how that started to connect you to the world. So I would love for you, if you wouldn't mind just sharing a little bit about what that experience was, and how that allowed you to begin to connect to people and stories around you.

05:46

Yes, as a child, I remember very fondly sitting, you know, with my parents, and listening to the radio, we didn't have television and their time. And just the voices that came out of a radio just fascinated me, a lot of plays were even performed on radio, which gave me being a dreamer, just, you know, I could just go into my imagination world. And even though you couldn't see any figures, or you couldn't see a picture, you were able to just paint that picture for yourself. And I would think that I'm blessed with a lot of creativity. And as I said, a lot of vivid imagination as well. So it really transported me into a world I suppose that I could imagine I could dream and I could very importantly see myself in it.

And I think that's the power of radio. And you know how stories were told like that because all of a sudden, you are a character in a story, whether they've written you in it or not, you know, the storytellers on the radio radio presenters, but you were part of that story. And you imagined yourself being in the, I mean, I vividly remember even footsteps, you know, or when a door closed, these were all sounds and it just evokes so much of your, your senses, you would listen, you could almost taste and imagine things. And that kind of sensation that brings you so close to yourself. And I think there's so much power in that. And so many different stories have been told, and even music being played, you know, if you've loved music, if you love music, it's just you can just imagine yourself doing all kinds of town moves. And you so fully in that moment. And I suppose I absolutely love that to be fully immersed in a moment. I feel, you feel free.

You feel it's you, you are the character and you there's so much enjoyment that comes out of it. And I think I mentioned to you how powerful podcasts, I think, are now this new electronic kind of digital live way of listening to stories. Even when I listen to some of the stories on podcasts, I still am able to imagine myself in a story. I still can relate sometimes, you know, with speakers and the stories they tell. And other times I'm learning. It's like I've never heard this before. And you get that a lot with different podcasts around the world now. It's like, it's right there. You can learn about something someone is sharing and you can listen to that experience. And yes, I think it's quite powerful. So many years after listening to the radio. We had the privilege of starting a community radio station in a beautiful town in Paul in the cape Winelands. And we knew that it was a powerful tool that we could actually pick up stories from the community in the area. And yeah, it has just been so powerful and it's just been able to bring people's stories to the forefront. So storytelling and listening to radio and podcast are, I must say, one of my favorites.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 09:50

Thank you so much for sharing that I just for me, it really allowed me to just step into a moment of this expansive Bass and like my, my brain loves that space as well of imagination and creativity, but also then reminded me in my childhood, like, we had a lot of records that I would listen to, but they were records of books. And so very similarly, like I could, I didn't realize I was doing it till you were talking, but like, I kind of inserted myself into those stories, or, it's so easy to imagine yourself kind of like sitting there, even if you're watching it, somehow you're a part of it, where is if you have a movie or a television show, it's happening, and you're just watching it. But if you can't see it, somehow you do. Put yourself into that space, you invite yourself into that story. And I think something really magical about what that allows for.

10:53

It's interesting what you say, when you're watching a movie, you you're watching it, you looking on, but when you you know, listen to a radio, or podcast, you You are the character in there, and you imagine yourself in it, so you are not a spectator, then you actually participate in it. And we all love to be included in a story, right? We like that feeling of, you're part of this cast. And I think that is why it's so powerful for a video, and podcasting because you can step into that place and just imagine yourself there. And the other thing about it also, it has no limits, it's like it's not in a block or remote square, your mind can really go as far and as wide. I guess that's what I love about stories and, and radio, and just listening overall, because I think it requires you to be quiet, and to listen more intensely. And then I think we need a lot more of that in the world.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 12:12

Yeah, and to give yourself the gift of sitting and listening and not doing something else. I do find that because you know, podcasts are so mobile, that you can be doing something else and listening but to maybe remember that, that the real gift in it is sitting and being so present and hearing people's words and letting your imagination do its work. So that you can really have that deeper connection. Because if you're doing two things, you're maybe missing out on that layer of connection. I just really wanted to start there. Because I feel like storytelling and creating space for that beautiful connection is such a foundation and the work that you're doing now. So I appreciate you helping to create that space for our conversation to build from, I would love to kind of begin to understand then how travel became a part of your life or how you knew that this would be the place that you could create such a positive impact in and begin to focus on supporting communities.

13:28

Again, even as a child, my parents took us every year to the very same place we visited. My auntie was a couple of hours away, and that was our holiday bag all along the way. And as I said, it's the same location every year, all along the way, we would stop along the road, take a break, of course stretch some legs. But it was such an adventure. Because every time we were stopped at a different place. So we didn't go into restaurants or hotels, I mean, there was no real money for that. But stopping at a different tree. That's how simple it was with a picnic area. And then the other time stopping along a river, it just may travel to the same place. So very exciting. Because even on that same road, there were just different adventures every time. And I really appreciated that so much and as I was growing up, I really enjoyed that.

That kind of adventure. And even though we didn't travel across the world, I mean, it's lovely to hear people say we've been to their nation. I didn't have that you know up till you know, in my 30s really. And that same adventure and then being able to travel in South Africa and also just picking up the different cultures, the different people groups, the different accents of how the same language is spoken is so so precious. And I just found it absolutely amazing. And I felt like this needs to be told, and this needs to be given an opportunity so that the rest of the world should see this and know this. So I think childhood and just that, that one holiday every year to the same place really inspired me.

Of course, later in life, I worked at a travel company, where I experienced a little bit more but a very different side of traveling, and it was in the volunteering sector. And that really, I think, that really pulled on my heart a lot, I have to say, and to be honest, my experience at the company wasn't wonderful, because I felt they really exploited the logo people. The way that we did business was really heartbreaking to me. And being from, from communities that just have very limited resources, that there's a lot of poverty. I just didn't feel right to me where I was at, and working at the time that we treated people in the way that we did. And that opened up my eyes to this sector of the travel industry to volunteering. And I think when I decided to start timber travel, I felt like I had to combine what I know, and what I've learned, and what I am all about. And we have grown up and my experiences, I had to combine that to create something beautiful.

And I do believe that it's something beautiful and something that I would love to share with people. I know South Africa is known for beaches for Bush, beautiful landscapes and so much more. But there is also an aspect, which I felt was missing. And that is the community aspect. And I made it a point to include this. And so for me, timber travel is a combination of culture, community, and conservation as well. And I don't want to take any of those three away from any of the experiences because sometimes we focus a lot on conservation. And of course, wildlife is a big thing in South Africa, but there's no people aspect, always to it. And I've made it a point to include, even if it's a little bit of community when it is conservation on a safari, a little bit of culture. But all of those three concert communities and conservation needs to be part of your experience.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 18:24

Thank you for sharing that as you were talking about that, and talking about how that really came from a place of your experiences and the things that you love and and how much you just wanted to share that with others. It reminded me of our conversation, we were talking about how women really lead from the heart and work from the heart and that we're seeing more and more women who are able to integrate themselves into their business and not kind of compartmentalize that part of themselves. And keep that out of their work. This has come up a lot with women on solo travel. And this year, especially because I think when we're creating, we're talking about women who are influencing change. I think they're doing it because they're acting from that space. So I would love to talk to you about what you know in your experience, but also what you've seen in communities when women are allowed to be able to lead from their heart.

19:32

As you said, more and more. You have a woman leading the industry now. There's a lot to be done still. But I think as women we just think of more than just ourselves. I wrote something some time ago about if you invest in a woman, you invest in a community. I can say even if I Look at my mother, she is a mother, she is, you know, mother of four children. Yet, my mother has so many more children because of what she has done in the community or who she is seen in the community. She loves to share. She's very generous, she gives so much even when she has very little. And I grew up looking at this role model of sharing as much as she can, with a very little that she has. And I think the industry has probably said to us, we shouldn't bring our emotions and our feelings into this industry. But how could we not?

Because this is who we are, we don't think as you said, we can't, I think men do are wonderfully too compatible, compartmentalized? If I say it, right, but our brains are really, you know, different. And we think of this while we do this. And we think oh, this will influence that. And so it's just, it's just normal for us to be doing things very much from the heart and very much from how will this impact others? How can I impact it more positively? How can I spread it bigger, so that more is included? I remember, my mom would always show us the house, there would always be people coming to the house all knocking at the door, even if it's asking for bread, my mother would invite people in. And I think as women we want to invite people in, we want to make a feast for them and prepare something special. I love how we create things out of nothing. Sometimes my eyes are minute, like that's a problem. But we create special things out of very little.

And I think we can really live in this travel industry as ourselves, our authentic selves and not having to feel we need to cut out a few of the things in my life that don't, you know, have no influence on what I work at. So it's, it's, it's so encouraging to see that more and more women are running their business as a woman would run our business truly, in a womanly way. So I'm very encouraged to see it. And yeah, I didn't, I didn't see it doing it any other way. Because any other way would be difficult for me because I have to pretend sometimes I have to imagine something that I am, which I'm not. So it's very easy. It's easier for me to just flow and create something that is really me. And I think women, we've got a powerful voice at the moment to lead the way we want to lead.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 23:29

Yeah, I think it is such an amazing time. And I know like if I look at my day or my week or my year or my past career, and I see those moments where I was really resisting something or not doing something or just kind of finding that space where you just couldn't move forward it when I can look back, I can realize it's because I was trying to show up in a way that wasn't authentic to myself. And like forcing myself into that space. And more and more now, like, I'll start to feel that and I can now say like, what, what don't you want to do? Why don't you want to do that? How could you do that in a way that feels more aligned with who you are? Or what else could you do that maybe creates the same impact or moves you forward but in a different way? And I think all of those things are kind of like you said, maybe the way a woman will think through that process or just allowing myself to be a part of the experience instead of just trying to check things off of a list or do things according to a plan. And I think seeing more and more of my colleagues and community do that. It's really amazing then also to see the innovation or how that pulls other people into the experience because also if you realize maybe that's not the thing you do well, then it's such a great space to invite community And then say like, you know, this isn't my thing. But I noticed you do it really well, can we do this together? And I think that also creates such a different energy around business, which then also brings community into that space as well.

25:18

Yeah, I absolutely agree. I must say, I've recently been part of the male ally ship program. We spent a couple of months with a male ally in the industry, learning so much. But I have to say, there's been many times, of course, where your perspective as a woman is just so different from a man's perspective. And he said to me, he has learned so much. Never did he think, you know, this is how we think, especially obviously, in the travel industry, this is how you think, or how did you come to that point. And just that space that was created for a couple of months, learning so much about how women lead differently, and not, as you said, feel limited, and also frightened, actually, to express it in the way you want to express it. Because I think those barriers were the and it was set for us. And now it's it's yeah, it's just an opportunity for us to not shy away and to be positive and to be I wouldn't I would I want to say forceful, because I don't want I don't see myself as a forceful person, I want to lead gently. Sometimes you have to lead strong years. But definitely I don't want to be forceful. But I want to lead differently the way I lead. And there's so much space and opportunity for that. And more and more male allies are understanding this and appreciating this from us. Yeah, it was quite a positive experience.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 27:04

Yeah. And I know, there's a few programs that are really focused on that and creating the space for those conversations. And I think the other thing that's really interesting is, because every person has masculine energy and feminine energy, I think that also allows men to recognize where maybe they might want to be stepping into that space of leadership. And it's not been modeled for them either. And so when we have these exchanges, that gives them some freedom to kind of break out of a mold that has been created for them as leaders as well. So I think it's really important to be able to find a way to have that balance for both men and for women.

27:48

Absolutely. And I remember my mentor once said to me, I was able to share with him about accommodation that I acquired for a certain package that I was working on. And I said, Oh, it's so beautiful. And it's wonderful. And the supplier came back to me and said that I can use the accommodation. It's such a beautiful place. And he said to me, how did you do that? How? Please tell me, how did you do that? And I say I'm in a relationship with the people I just asked them, and I've known this one for many years, and that one just asked him and, and they just emphasize relationships, because that's important to us. And we are more likely to ask someone that we know and be in relationship with for something that we need. And he was quite amazed. And I just said, relationships are important. It's important to nurture relationships.

And I really do value relationships a lot. Being, you know, a community worker and being involved with youth and community for all these years. It's very precious to me to keep those relationships. It's important to me, and I value those people, those individuals. And I honestly can't tell you, Christine, when I was started by Trevor I 90% of the people I called on to make timber travel work are people that I've been in relationship with for years. It's none of my suppliers or people that are part of this. I've just made it in the last year or two. It's literally all the years of relationship. And so I could just draw from that and ask questions and they were more than willing they just easily said yes. And I think that's how we, we do, live as women, we really value our relationships. And it's always important to me as well.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 30:13

Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think the other part of that too is when you, when you have that person you can ask to support you in creating your business, you also feel so good to be able to support them with your Absolutely. And like, it is helping you. But for some, sometimes I forget that part because I'm so eager to just like, I really want to support them, and how can my business do that? It just feels really, it feels really good. And it feels in alignment with who I am. I know that probably feels in alignment with who you are. And it becomes almost so natural that sometimes it doesn't feel like business and that I think we feel like maybe we got off course because we're just doing this thing that feels normal and doesn't feel like business.

31:04

Yeah, yeah, it's true, I can relate to it. We feel like this should look differently this business meeting, yet we checked, and we laugh because of the relationships. And as you said, you know, you, you want it. You want to support them in their businesses as one and what they do. And I think with timber travel, this was the opportunity for me to actually think about how I can combine what I love, what I've done, and the skills that I've acquired. And I thought this is a way of also supporting their businesses or the organizations that are part of and I suppose that is how it shaped timber travel to be promoting volunteering holidays, as well as leisure holidays and educational expeditions. But it was the reverse of that. Relationships and experiences over the years that could create this. And as you see, it didn't feel much like business. It's like, let's just make this arrangement.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 32:20

Yeah, I Yeah, it's so amazing. Well, that I think really leads well into talking about community. I know you were talking about when you were first working in industry and the experiences that were being created, you notice that it felt like the community wasn't receiving the spotlight that it could in travel in the area. And so I would love for you to talk a little bit about that, about why that was so important. And what do those conversations look like for you? How do you bring community in when you're creating tourism? And how do you have them become a part of that experience and engagement with travelers?

33:06

As I said earlier on, I think South Africa is promoted in a few ways. Everyone will say to you, it's either Table Mountain, it's either the beaches, its wildlife, and I was really looking for the human part in that and they will stand there for centuries to come. And you know, wildlife, they do look after themselves and beaches are beautiful. And I really miss the human aspect and like you say the community aspect is what makes us so unique and so diverse and why is it you know, the rainbow nation ways the colors, different colors and wasted communities. And I really wanted to emphasize this in Themba Travel.

But focusing on Community Focus tourism is long term. I feel it's not something that oh, let's create it now and have that complete package. Because communities grow and communities share different beliefs or practices. It is evolving a lot but it never stays the same. It never stays the same and it changes over time. And the communities that I grew up in I experienced that. A lot of change, a lot of joy, a lot of challenges, a lot of heartache as well. out there or sadness, poverty not having enough. And for what South Africa is seen for and what really happens behind Table Mountain, I felt we needed to give a little bit of exposure to that. And so as I shared with the relationships I had in many different communities, I had to sit with them and ask, how could we? How could we give a little bit more attention to what you are doing? Because you would find Christina, they would do amazing work. Nonprofit organizations do very hard work. And they extend their hearts and their hands to help so many more people, but they sometimes also struggle, not having enough funds or not just not having enough. And we had to sit down and talk, how can we do this? How can we do it together?

How can I create a platform, and as you mentioned before, it's not giving them a voice, because I do believe they already have a voice. It's really just elevating that voice, it's really just making it a little bit louder. And I think that the privilege and the platform I have, I can use this, to give a little bit more exposure to a lot of the people that I know, the people that are in the travel industry, the tourism industry, a bed and breakfast owner, a homestay woman that provides home stays, and it might not be the, you know, mainstream tourism, but I do feel at will create a real positive social impact and also economically, and that's where my heart is to really support those businesses so that they can become economically strong, that they are able not just to care for their own families, but as I say, care for communities. And I've many times thought of No, just promote what you see in what you know, and definitely coming to stay in the UK, there's a lot of that mainstream, the same things are offered. And I decided I'm not gonna do that. I will stay with why I'm doing it.

And this is really to empower people in communities to give exposure to those that sometimes just are not seen, to use those smaller operators. From the community, you know, that we don't have somebody driving two hours away to promote something. Yeah. But then I can actually, you know, let everything stay in that community, whether it's accommodation, whether it's transport, whether it's hospitality, so that, yeah, I just stays in their community of helps to impact the community in a positive way, economically, and obviously out of that, you know, more growth economically as well. And, yeah, that I had to sit down and talk and discuss and arrange, but again, you know, drawing on relationships, and you'll find that I would be great friends with this one. And then that one knows that one introduces me to that one. So it all comes down to relationships, but But I needed to make very sure what I was standing for and what I was promoted, what I want to promote, because mainstream doesn't say this or do this or promote this, really, and I'm gonna stick to my guns with it, because I feel it will have a greater positive impact on our people. And I think I mentioned before how to get out of this.

I saw how proud communities became when they could offer something, you know, as we were designing things all I said, you know, why don't we include this and they will have a bright idea. Why don't we, you know, maybe that's too long. Maybe that's too far and creating a really cool creating these experiences was just so encouraging to them as well. And so I think it makes them proud. would have their community and involve so many more of them to be creative and really, you know, innovative, really briquetted creative thinkers. And I love, I love that I love how we could co create their community and their experiences and bring it into the forefront. And as I said, Yes, I think I'll stick with it, I think it feels to me just a lot more valuable to do that. I can send you to Table Mountain, I can take you up there. Absolutely. But I think I'll feel much more fulfilled, you know, taking you or sharing an experience with you that a community has designed and they gave the input and the voice is heard through it.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 41:00

Yeah. I think when I reflect on my travel experiences, it's definitely those communities, those moments of connection that are the things that I treasure the most. And, yes, it's, it's nice to see these things that we have, you know, maybe been drawn to a country for because it's what's in the mainstream marketing. But when I at the end of the day, that's not the thing I remember, the thing I remember is a powerful conversation with a with a local driver, or stopping at a roadside stand to grab fruits, and then like meeting someone's children, and then like they tell you about someone further down the road, and then you wind up, go from there. And you like those moments, when that starts feeling that's what I think, allows us to see the story of a destination. And it's not quickly piled into a van, getting from one place to the next kind of linking back to your childhood journeys, if you just start stopping and seeing what's around you and being present, like that journey is the experience. And when you slow down and connect with people and begin to understand you're going to have such a richer experience. And I also was thinking when you're talking about, you know, working with local community members and guides that are not driving from two hours away to come to lead a group.

Also on the opposite of that, what would it feel like if I lived in that community and another guide arrived to tell my story, like, that doesn't feel okay, either. And I hadn't really thought about that in that way before. But that would be disheartening to me as a member of that community to not be the one to get to share that story. And I think that there's probably something in there that that we really need to think about as people that are curating travel experiences that us bringing someone else in kind of tells these communities that their voice isn't important. And that's not what we're trying to do. Like, I think women like you, and I, we really believe their voice is the most important thing. And we want to cultivate that and we want them to engage and tell that and be a part of the story and part of the travel experience.

43:32

Yes, and you pick up something important, because when I came to learn the UK and saw how South Africa is, you know, promoted and sold, I could not relate to many of it. And I felt, you know, promoting South Africa there, you know, there's so much more and how would I make people know this so much more. And this encouraged me to to start timber travel and to share a little bit on the of the other side of the different that, you know, travelers wouldn't necessarily seen at first glance, and I think it encourages me even more and more to not be silent, to make known to write about it, talk about it. It takes from me, I'm really an introvert. So it takes for me to say that, the more if I want people to go for this different experience, I need to talk more about it. I need to write more about it because how else would they know? Because they've been, you know, exposed to maybe a certain way or the specific things that they do see So it takes, it takes me to, to speak about it.

And so, you know, reverse wise, it does encourage me also to keep on talking about it for a while . I encourage them to keep on talking and you know, elevating their voices and always wanting a great story from them and encouraging them to talk. At the same time, I also realize I need to, while I'm here and the UK is South Africa's biggest tourism partner really, while I'm here, I need to speak about it, give travelers maybe just a different, you know, different perspective or share a different experience with them. I'm actually just finalizing a food culture tour. Christina, and it's there's so many great foods in South Africa, but a lot of the food that's very well known, very connected with the culture. And so it's just a tour of just bringing out why that food has become so, you know, important or how, why does it represent a certain culture. For instance, I don't know if you know the colorful houses in Cape Town. That area is called the book cop. And it has all these colorful houses. And it's really the, one of the oldest communities in Cape Town, which is the Cape Malay people.

And the Cape Malay people, obviously, a lot of slaves came from Malaysia. And so they were in the cape area. And they obviously, from Malaysia, in those areas have brought all these spices. And they've created these curries, and delicious meals. Cape Malay, in the workout area, is known for these spicy foods and the just sweet treats and very specific kinds of cakes that they make. And so we combining this culture, with the food and having travelers experience even how to make some of the food, and then also tasted, but at the same time, it's not just a cooking class, we have a Cape Malay woman share about her story and why she why is this a favorite meal and what her heritage is. So it's just connected, it should be connected, the experience must be connected with the human aspect with the person. And that's important to me, it's not just something bland. It's something that is connected with the human being. And even if we can combine food with culture, that's what we want to do.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 48:16

Yeah, I love that. And I think that is such a great way to experience a place is through food, like you said, to understand where it came from, how it's grown, why that's a staple, like, you're eating a thing. But if you take the time to understand why you're eating the thing, all of a sudden, you're learning so much about an area and like there's, there's so much hidden underneath everything that we don't necessarily take time to think about it. So I love those moments when we kind of get to sit still, and hear a story. And then again, you're creating this space where I think the person who is sharing their story and preparing the food with you and telling their story like that is a really beautiful exchange for them. And I think that we're giving them the gift of our presence to their story and to really wanting to honor that and not just you know, drive through and grab a meal and not know who prepared it for you or why it's significant. Like there's some who involve respect to create the space to connect to what you're experiencing.

49:32

Yeah, we recreate an audience for them. You know, if you've, if you have an audience, it's quite special, because you are. You are the main kind of character. And we love sometimes to be the face. So yeah, it's important for me that we connect with the Windows tribe. And I love how, as a traveler, you know, you can sit there and you. I'm very curious. So I asked a lot of questions. So it also gives you as a traveler an opportunity to ask questions to find out so much more, you know, to what someone is saying and telling a story you can ask. Sometimes you don't even you didn't even come to ask questions, you come to eat the food. But you're in there asking so many more questions, and that broadens your mind and your understanding of why things are done a certain way. So I think as you said, it's a beautiful exchange, where, you know, the host, and the traveler learn so much about each other.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 50:55

One of the moments that I remember most about my travels, in many places, is finding ourselves gathering around a campfire, at the end of the day, or in cooking a meal and preparing a meal. And there's something about that space that's universal about gathering and sharing storytelling and community. And one thing that we talked about in our conversation prior to this is how photography and images kind of go back to where we started, don't tell the full story, it's better to have the words and the experience and just be present. So I would love to just talk a little bit about that , like that sacred space of gathering and being present and storytelling and, and how that creates a longer lasting, deeper impression of a destination and of community.

51:58

Yeah, there's, there's so much power that I think when you've done the major attractions during the day, but you are now able to sit down and just relax, you open up yourself to what else? What else is there? And I find that, especially sitting around a barbecue at a barbecue in South Africa, listening to different stories, it just opens up people's hearts so much. They just have that space now to share. When they are around a table of food, sometimes all around a fire. I remember I think my mentor was sharing with me a story about how he was on a safari and they were sitting around a fire. And I think it was his uncle and his uncle said he should get away from the fire. And obviously, there were in- game reserves that were pitch dark. So his uncle said get away from the fire, and then look up into the stars. Because sitting at a fire where there's light, and looking up is a very different picture, to stepping out of that moment in pure darkness.

And then looking up, you see much more clear stars. And I found that so fascinating. And I was saying to him, there's so many times we have set around fires and we would have the most amazing conversations. But there is also that moment when you step out of that ring or out of that moment just on your own. And whether you look up or look right or left, there's something special in that as well. But around a fire mercy is a good place. A usually erupts in song or it erupts in dance. And that's what I love about our communities. It's never quiet. There's always things I've been and what the things have been . It's life happening, but it's in your never very joyous way. When you sit around communities around fire. It's not always just you and them and you know, a quiet moment. There's always a lot going on. And that's life. It's their lives going on. It's very hard to exclude our children at times, you know, sitting around a fire because it just brings us together, it's very hard to exclude our neighbor's fire, because when there's a fire, it's always an irritation for the community.

And when there's food, oh, my goodness, then, oh, well, we all are coming. And I think that's just as special because it's not just that individualism. It's that sense of community that's always, always going on. And I think, you know, travelers to South Africa should just, you know, have their quiet time when they go back to their home, because it's not quiet. There's, of course, if you've obviously signed up for a retreat or something in the mountains, it's very different. But when you share it with the communities, it can be noisy, and it can be busy, but in a good, good way, in a really soulful way. Because you really get into that culture and get into those people's ways. And oh, my goodness, the jokes and the stories that are being told, incredible and laughing, laughing will always be parked when you are in a community. So yeah, it's quite powerful.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 56:27

Yeah, thank you so much. I, I just love how beautifully you are able to paint a picture of the places that you love. And I think it really speaks to the power of understanding stories and the power of our words. And I just think that that is one of my most beautiful takeaways from this conversation. Before we wrap up, I would love for you to just share how people if they are interested in experiencing South Africa in this way, how they can connect with you. And then we have a few rapid fire questions to end our conversation.