Episode 108 - Magdalena Rungaldier, MAp Boutique Consultancy

Travel

Dec 21

Various organizations are acknowledging the value of women’s leadership, and are actively working towards increasing the visibility and positions of women within the hospitality sector.

Programs like mentoring and leadership development programs can help prepare and empower women for assuming executive roles. Initiatives that recruit and train women in HR areas may foster women’s growth in executive roles.

Providing networking opportunities for women to connect with women from other segments of the hospitality industry and increase their opportunities to explore leadership positions that are available. Highlighting women’s contributions to the industry through an annual awards program. Maintaining the conversation about lack of leadership parity by hosting and participating in panels about women in hospitality at tourism conferences and trade shows worldwide.

While there has been a rise in gender diversity in operational and managerial levels of the hospitality industry, women are a tiny minority of those at senior leadership levels and the highest levels of executive management. It is critical that hotels employ more effective female leaders at top levels of leadership in order to maximize company performance.

Although a shortage of women is observed in management positions, we are led to believe two factors lead to a belief that women leaders can be more effective than men leaders. Women display leadership styles which are associated with efficacy, and female leaders are generally judged as being more effective than male leaders by others .

In this episode, Christine is sitting down with Magdalena Rungaldier.

Magdalena is the principal of MAp Boutique Consultancy. She co-founded MAp in 2014, with the strong belief that the hospitality industry needed a fresh, human and sustainable approach, along with innovative ideas and services.

Magdalena was born in South Tyrol, Italy, and got (and stayed) drunk on travelling, marketing and breath-taking design. Following her studies, she began her wanderlust tour – living and working in Europe, New Zealand, America and the Maldives. Magdalena holds a BA Honours degree in Tourism Management and has many years’ experience in tourism, marketing and in strategically developing brands and businesses.

She also serves as a lecturer on the topic of hotel concept development and activation at various universities and hotel schools.

Before co-founding MAp, Magdalena held a variety of senior operational and management positions at a boutique design agency, a tourism research institute, and a number of high-end boutique luxury resorts and hotels.

In this conversation, Magdalena and Christine talk about the gaps she saw in the information for boutique hoteliers on the topic of sustainability and how Magdalena now helps hotels navigate this journey. Magdalena shares how purpose and profit are connected both in terms of sustainability and other purpose driven missions. Christine and Magdalena also talk about how hotels can attract talented women and keep them.

Join Christine now for this soulful conversation with Magdalena Rungaldier.

In this episode, Christine and Magdalena discuss:

How can we bring more women into leadership in the hospitality industry?
The impact you want to create in the world.
How do you help boutique hoteliers become more sustainable?
Choose the thing you are most passionate about and bring that into place first.
Why sustainability is not a goal, it’s a journey.
The importance of purpose and profit in real life.
How can we bring more women into leadership in the hospitality industry?
You have to be showing up so that someone else in the room sees you.
What is the most important thing you need to know when you travel?
Who is one woman you would like to recognize in this space?

Resources & Links Mentioned in the Episode

To learn more about MAp, click the links below:

MAp Boutique Consultancy: https://www.ma-people.com/

The Sustainable Hotel: https://www.ma-people.com/en/TSH/home

Follow MAp Boutique Consultancy on your favorite social media network:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/ma-people-gmbh/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ma_people/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/weareMApeople

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/soamea/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/magdalena.rungaldier/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/magdalena.rungaldier/

Join me for my Women’s Wilderness and Yoga Retreat in Alaska in March 2023!

We’ll be traveling 63 miles north of the Arctic Circle to stay at Arctic Hive, owned by my friend Mollie Busby and her husband Sean. This boutique property nestled in the Brooks Range is way off the beaten path and also off grid. We’ll stay in beautiful cabins built by hand by our hosts, practice yoga in their yoga dome lovingly referred to as The Hive, with gorgeous views of the surrounding nature.

We’ll explore the wilderness by snowshoe and dog sled, connect with members of the local community to learn about living in this remote environment, enjoy daily yoga practice and vegan meals all while keeping our eye out for the beautiful northern lights that like to show off their magic this time of year.

I only have 6 spaces for this unique adventure and a few are already taken. Hop over to the Lotus Sojourns website to book yours today.

Please share this experience with anyone you know would love this restorative adventure.

Want to learn more, you can listen to my Soul of Travel conversation, episode 67 with Mollie Busby

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WE WON A BESSIE AWARD! The Bessie Awards recognize the achievements of women and gender-diverse people making an impact in the travel industry. To view the complete list of this year’s winners, visit bessieawards.org.

About the Soul Of Travel Podcast

Soul of Travel honors the passion and dedication of the people making a positive impact in tourism. In each episode, you’ll hear the story of women who are industry professionals and seasoned travelers and community leaders who know travel is more than a vacation. It is an opportunity for personal awareness and it is a vehicle for change. We are thought leaders, action takers, and heart-centered change makers.

The guests work in all sectors of the tourism industry. You'll hear from adventure-based community organizations, social impact businesses, travel photographers and videographers, tourism boards and destination marketing organizations, and transformational travel experts. They all honor the idea that travel is more than a vacation and focus on sustainable travel, eco-travel, community-based tourism, and intentional travel.

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If you want to learn about new destinations, types of travel, or how to be more intentional or live life on purpose, join Christine Winebrenner Irick for soulful conversations with her community of fellow travelers exploring the heart, the mind, and the globe. These conversations highlight what tourism really means for the world.

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Credits. Christine Winebrenner Irick (Host, creator, editor.) Magdalena Rungaldier (Guest). Original music by Clark Adams. Editing and production by Rayna Booth.

Transcript

KEYWORDS

hotel, sustainability, people, travel, create, sustainable, women, purpose, conversation, world, impact, boutique, business, tourism, consultancy

Christine Winebrenner Irick 00:08

Thank you for joining me for soulful conversations with my community of fellow travelers, exploring the heart, the mind and the globe. These conversations highlight what travel really means for the world. Soul of Travel honors the passion and dedication of the people making a positive impact in tourism. Each week, I'll be speaking to women who are tourism professionals, world travelers and leaders in their communities will explore how travel has changed them and how that has rippled out and inspired them to change the world. These conversations are as much about travel as they are about passion, and living life with purpose, chasing dreams, building businesses, and having the desire to make the world a better place. This is a community of people who no travel is more than a vacation. It is an opportunity for personal awareness, and it is a vehicle for change. We are thought leaders, action takers, and heart centered change makers I'm Christine Winebrenner Irick. And this is the Soul of Travel.

Magdalena Rungaldier is the principal of MAp boutique consultancy. She co-founded MAp in 2014 with the strong belief that the hospitality industry needed a fresh, human and sustainable approach. Along with innovative ideas and services. Magdalena was born in South Tyrol Italy, and got and stayed drunk on traveling, marketing and breathtaking design. Following her studies, she began her wanderlust tour, living and working in Europe, New Zealand, America and the Maldives. Magdalena holds a BA Honors Degree in tourism management and has many years experience in tourism, marketing and in strategically developing brands and businesses.

She also serves as a lecturer on the topic of hotel concept development and activation at various universities and hotel schools. Before co-founding MAp, Magdalena held a variety of senior operational and management positions at a boutique design agency, a Tourism Research Institute and a number of high end boutique luxury resorts and hotels. In our conversation, Magdalena and I talk about the gaps she saw in the information for boutique hoteliers on the topic of sustainability, and how she now helps hotels navigate this journey. She shares how purpose and profit are connected both in terms of sustainability and other purpose driven missions. We also talk about how hotels can attract talented women and keep them join me now for my soulful conversation with Magdalena Rungaldier.

Good morning and or good evening. I usually never acknowledge the time of day because I'm not talking to guests at the same time. So but either way, welcome to the Soul of Travel podcast. I am really excited for today's guests. So we're going to jump right in. I'm going to welcome you and we just talked about the pronunciation of your name but Montelena we're now in the air, which I cannot say and it's so beautiful. So I'm gonna have you pronounce it when you introduce yourself. But we met when I was on a recent trip to Switzerland and had such a great conversation that we knew it needed to be on the podcast. So welcome to the Soul of Travel.

04:01

Thank you, Christine. And thank you for having me. It's a great pleasure.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 04:06

Thank you. So as I mentioned, we met when I was in Switzerland. And when I decided to go to the adventure travel World Summit in Lugano, I realized I was going to end up spending a few nights in Zurich. And so I wanted to see if I could really put my values into action when I started looking for places to stay. And this wasn't something I had done so intentionally before but I got online and I was Googling women owned businesses in Zurich, and then I was Googling women owned hotels and impact driven businesses. And I ended up finding the property that I stayed at which we'll talk about a little bit later. I really loved it and then in the process of learning more about them.

I found your company and a blog. post about one of the proprietors of that hotel and anyway led me to just reaching out to you saying I was so curious about your work and you were so grateful to have me calm for a conversation, which was supposed to be, you know, a quick meeting. And I think it ended up being like several hours of beautiful and passionate and fiery conversation, which is my favorite, and was such a great start to my trip. So I'm excited to bring that energy to this space. For my listeners, MAp boutique consultancy is a B Corp certified consultancy, helping and afford thinkers build and scale sustainable hotel brands. And that was what really caught my eye. I hadn't thought about who was helping brands build the brands that they wanted to have more of an impact. And I hadn't really seen one agency really focusing on that. So that's what led me to you. But I would love for you to just take a moment to introduce yourself and tell us a little bit more about MAp.

06:07

Yes, thank you, Christine. And I mean, it was amazing having you in Zurich, and as you said chatting for hours. So that was really an inspiration for me as well. I say my name now. My name is Magdalena Rungaldier. And I was born and raised in the northernmost region of Italy. Some of our listeners might know it as the Dolomites region. And the domains are very famous.

So I grew up in the midst of tourism. It was just part of our life, and it's still a part of our life. However, I have to say that wasn't the reason why I entered the tourism and hospitality field. Honestly, I didn't know what to do. So there are people you meet at kindergarten and they know straight away and become a doctor and become an artist. I just didn't know. And I saw in tourism, you study everything a bit, a bit of arts, history and languages. And I thought, I'll go that way. And that's something like my whole life, I never had a real career path.

Because also after my study, I was living and working in New Zealand, in Asia, in Europe and Mexico, and also in a variety of fields. So in with luxury hotels, boutique hotels, and a research institute, and a river cruise ship, and so on. And so 2013 It was really the year when I got the opportunity to co-found my boutique consultancy. And as you mentioned, we're specialized in crafting sustainable hotel concepts and brands. So we are working with investors around the globe, but also hoteliers who are saying like I would like to create a hotel with an impact.

How, what, and what are the steps? What is the concept? What can be the strategy, what do I need to consider? And so it's often the concept and the brand at the same time. And as you mentioned earlier as well, we were always very much interested to see how that development can be a sustainable one. And we will talk about that as well. And so sustainability was always a huge focus. And we were also and we are still very much inspired by hotels, businesses, but also a variety of companies that are enabling travelers to have a sustainable trip. But also those hotels who think further and say yes, if guests come and stay with me, then they will have a sustainable stay. And that's really where our whole work is. Focus is wrapped, to help hoteliers to help companies to build concepts, hotels, brands, that are of a bigger value than just making profit. I'll put it like this, even if profit is important. We all know.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 09:09

Yeah. Well, I think what I would love to also kind of start this conversation with is thinking about the impact and the change that you want to create in the world. This is one of the things I thought was really important to bring into solo travel this season. And I noticed in myself, especially over the last year, instead of thinking about what I want to do, I've been thinking more about, like, what is this kind of larger goal that I'm after. And sometimes it's even more of a feeling or like a space that I want to create. But I've kind of let go of the things that are going to help me get there if that makes any sense. Like I just know this outcome is so important, but I'm detached from what's going to allow me To get to that outcome, and I think a lot of purpose driven leaders and entrepreneurs and business owners start from that space of like, this is the change, I want to be a part of creating in the world. So for you, I'd love to understand what is that for you? What does that change?

10:18

Yeah, it's such a great question. And I mean, now, the agency, we started 20 1314. So it's now eight years. And I think it's important to share that you start somewhere. So there might be listeners who are just starting out, and that's totally okay. And what I've realized with my agency that at some stage, you realize, ah, just doing the standard things, creating another hotel concept, creating another hotel brands might not be enough anymore in this world, or especially then during the pandemic, we all felt it in the team, ah, it's something is changing, we can make a bigger impact.

And so what we are saying is that our purpose and MAp is to make this world a better and more hospitable place. And we find this work so meaningful, because we are in hospitality. But it's not a welcoming place. In many areas of this world. And also, in many hotels of this world, we don't feel welcome. And that was then our driver where we always felt, can we make this impact. And at some stage, we realized, and I'm super happy that we are a boutique consultancy. So I'm not interested in running a huge company. But we also understood that with a boutique consultancy, your impact might be not that large. And so for example, we came up with a sustainable hotel.

We said, Wow, we are in an age of digitalization. Why can't a consultancy have a platform where you can present tools and handbooks and insights and where you can create online courses and so on, to spread this out into the world? Because we really felt it's needed. It's needed that someone in hospitality also says look, we can create hotels that are good hotels that have an impact and that are sustainable. And yeah, that was really in that moment, when we said, this is what we would like to do. That's our purpose, we understood that our business model right now is not the right one for it. And so slowly, always takes time, we always say step by step, we started trying, we try, we started changing, and we started building, and so on,

Christine Winebrenner Irick 12:57

I think it's so interesting to think about how you put that into action. And like you've said, how you have maybe one idea, and it starts to take a different shape. And so then maybe allowing it to, and then also the idea, especially in a capitalist culture, that everything needs to be as big as possible. And the idea that for you to create the impact you want, you actually have to go against that. And so you have to look at what allows your business to be able to scale to where you want it. But also to know that you're okay with the top, like you've already set what you want that to be. And you're not going to try to push past that just because maybe that's what culture tells you like, well, you're already doing great here, you could do greater if it was four times as big, but you then you realize, I think many of us are beginning to realize that personal touch and that intimacy and that like one on one. Attention is actually where the impact is, as a hotel as a consultant as like many different aspects. So I love that you were able to say, This is who we want to be, and we're not really, we're not worried about being the biggest.

14:16

Exactly. And it's really sometimes when you craft something, when you create something, it's about expertise, and you need to build it. So this is not that. You just say we assume now five new people and they will all know how we craft sustainable hotel concepts and brands. It's like a field that has to grow into it. And I mean, hospitality is such a hotel. I mean, it's such a complex structure with all the departments with everything happening in there and with all the people meeting there.

That's the first thing but the second thing I also feel it's It's a lot about the details about caring about the people also behind the hotel project. As I mentioned, we are working with a lot of boutique hoteliers, and their hotel will be their hotel, not ours, we're just supporting, we are giving insights, we are helping with tools. But it needs to be their hotel, with their purpose, where they can meet the guests they want to meet. It's been a long time over the times where we can be everything for everyone. There are a lot of people. And I would say it's so many.

So I think, to be successful in the field and successful. I mean, that's such a difficult word. But to do great work in this field, where we always say that afterwards, a hotel is really frightening, not only for the owner, but for the community and so on. It's work and you need this personal relationship. And I also don't feel that we need to become machines there and create one concept a week.

It's not how it's going. And it's not how it will be a sustainable business. And at the same time, also mentioning what we are seeing, how I think, as an intrapreneur, there was never a time where we had so many possibilities. When I think back 10 years ago, how much the upsides cost. And now you can do it yourself. For you know, it's incredible tools that were impossible to use five years ago. Now, every small company can use it. And also, for example, talking about an online shop we're doing now, a podcast, and people from all over the world can listen to it. I think that's also important to always see well, we have now other ways as a cause consultancy, people got used to this online sphere. So I think that's also why you don't see many consultancies doing it yet. But for us, it was like this. That's a perfect opportunity. Let's do it. Let's try it. What can happen? Nothing. So we always try new things. And yeah, try to get better with it. I think that's important as well.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 17:19

Yeah. When you are talking to hotels, I know this started for you by witnessing a gap in the information available to boutique hoteliers, specifically on the topic of sustainability. And you did want to help them navigate that journey. Can you share a little bit about what your clients have been looking for? And for people who are curious, whether they have their own boutique hotel, or just in the context of travel, they can probably pull something from this, but how can people begin this process? And how can they maybe begin to understand even their values and what they want to bring into this space? And then how would you begin to take them on this journey?

18:05

There are two answers to it. I think the first one is really why we started our platform, the sustainable hotel. And what we realized a few years ago is that there is such a lot of information and sustainability out there. But we couldn't find anything very practical or tangible for particulars. Because particular 10 years they have and if I say particular 10 years, it means that are for example, family run hotels, smaller independent hotels, because the chain hotels, the big brands, they have their sustainability measures and activities in place, they have their own department or company doing it for them. But when we talk about these small, medium sized hotels, which are I think the biggest part of the hospitality industry, at least here in Europe, I mean, I'm sitting right now in Switzerland, we realize we can't give them anything. Of course, we can tell them to read through the 17 SDGs.

But then they say okay, but what shall we do now? And so we started out, because what we saw is they really were missing practical information, saying okay, we're not going to be the sustainability champions, because I also, I'll open now to just give you an idea. We've created four handbooks about purpose, people, planet and profit. And in there, we have nearly 300 action steps that a hotel can take now to become more sustainable. What does that imply? There might be no 100% Sustainable hotel out there, and that we have to be okay with and that's already the first big recommendation for everybody trying to enter the field of sustainability or saying I would like to become more sustainable for perfection, you should always forget it. But in this field, forget it. And we saw, for example, this fear, oh my gosh, if I'm now saying I become sustainable, but people see, oh my gosh, see, this is not happening. This is not happening.

And I'm not doing that and greenwashing and how should I communicate? So there was a lot of fear, because then they felt like sustainability is so big and complicated, and what we told them, and that's also part of your question, we always say, start with your, your purpose, start with that. And your purpose might be more connected to the field of planet, ecological sustainability, it might be connected to women empowerment, then you are in the field of social sustainability. And once you know that you would like to make the biggest impact stored there. Of course, in every area, we have non-negotiables. That's like, you can't nowadays pay men double and say, Oh, but we protect the planet. Not happening. There are some parts and some points, we somehow agreed upon, that this is not any more anything we can do in the year 2022. But that's the starting point. We are circling back to the beginning of our conversation, what's your purpose?

What's your impact, and start there? And then take it step by step. I think, why did we build this platform because we said if 100 hotels take five steps, five little steps, we have taken altogether 500 steps to a better and more hospitable place. And it's so more valuable for us in our approach, and in our beliefs, to have one hotel that does everything perfectly. And that's the second thing. First thing, start with your purpose. Second thing, little steps, it's okay. It's not that we become sustainable in a year, in two years, we will never become sustainable. Things are changing. Without yesterday, we know something. And today, it's already. So that's the second part to it. And the third one would be dead in Zurich, what we are doing right now connects this as a journey. We can't make them connect with people, get help, help learn. That's like such an important and valuable part that you grow as a person while going through it. If not, if you're just there, ticking boxes, getting certifications, it has no long lasting values, at least in my perception.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 22:46

I think that's so powerful. And all of those things I was thinking are really important as travelers as well. I think there's just like you said, there's so much resistance to kind of starting a sustainability journey, because we are thinking about how far it will take to get there. And then also that there doesn't seem to be a place to get to. And so people are just standing there paralyzed. And think like you said, like, no, no, your purpose. And I've talked a lot about this in the context of conservation.

And as for sustainability as a traveler, just choose the thing you are the most passionate about, like you said, and bring that into place first. So that goes back to kind of what I was saying, when I began looking for a hotel in Switzerland, like, My impact is towards gender equity and how that impacts sustainability. And so that was my Google search. And someone else's search might look different. But I know that that is something I'm passionate about. So it's easy for me to put that into action. If you were making me focus on something I wasn't connected to. I wasn't going to I'm not going to do it for one for two. If I am, it's just not going to have the same impact. And so I think it's so great for people it seems so simple and basic. But it really I think is the catalyst to be able to push it forward. Yeah. And that's a big learning.

24:13

I sometimes feel that people I put in tried to convince us that sustainability is costly and complicated. Yes, talking about a hotel. Sometimes you need to invest in something. That's the basic situation, every business you invest to get a return on investment. But if not, sometimes it's just using your brain, you know, and for example, we talk to a lot of experts and I personally love good questions. I love them much more than good answers because a good question can give me answers for a long time and one expert annatto who runs a very small boutique hotel in Piermont, in Italy, asks such a great question.

When we asked him, How are you ensuring that you are running your business in a sustainable way? And he said, he's always asking himself, if I take this decision now, do I consider how it impacts future generations? And that's, for example, a question you can always ask yourself, How does this decision now impact future generations? How does it impact people right now? Is there someone who will suffer because of my decision, and so on? It's a set of very basic questions. And something that you mentioned, Christine, and I think is so important, again, to emphasize upon that right now, in this whole field of sustainability, there are so many questions where we don't have answers.

We just don't have them. We ask a question. Is it now really good that we all have E cars? We don't know. We don't know. We don't know where the batteries are coming from insulin. But I think it's important to ask the questions. And then to realize I might not find the perfect answer right now. But what might be now the best next step with the best impact for everybody involved? But I tell you, Christine, I think we all need to get okay with feeling insecure and not having the right answers. That's something we're not very good at. I'm not used to it. I'm not sure how you feel about it.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 26:41

Yeah, I agree. I was just thinking that that seems to be one of the hardest things about this area. And I think it draws people probably like this where when you said My favorite thing is a good question. I was like, Oh, me, too. I love a good question. I can't wait to think about it. I can't wait to like, ruminate and go every direction with it. And some people, that is a very uncomfortable place to be. And I think one of the greatest things about the area of sustainability is that there's so much space. So many people can think about it in a different way. And it isn't like there isn't necessarily a right or wrong. There's just another question.

And another question, and it keeps shifting and evolving. And for me, that's kind of magical. Actually, I don't like the real linear space. I love this more fluid space. And the other thing that I was thinking about too, was with sustainability, the idea that we really need to be able to kind of reach a goal without there being a goal is kind of how we do that? And the other thing, I think, really what has been interesting is sustainability, I think in a lot of people's minds it was environmental sustainability. And sustainability really got connected to climate, but only from this environmental standpoint.

I think what people are seeing, or not seeing, because I think it's been known, but like all of these elements like so you've said, social sustainability is your principle or your pillar that you're really interested in focusing on. And when you look at the SDGs, this actually gives us so much room for innovation, because we can then kind of tell our brand story through our commitment to a sustainable development goal that lends us to creating our sustainability journey. So I think that also again, just opens up more space. So we can see that we both love this space, but for your clients, how how has that allowed them to be able to tell their story and really allow them to be a purpose driven business, maybe in a way they wouldn't have expected because maybe they just thought, I need to reduce carbon I need to recycle, but they weren't thinking about these other parts of their purpose in the context of sustainability.

29:16

Yes, of course, if there are clients, we are working with them for longer, and we can help them and support them. And as mentioned, we always start with purpose. That's our starting point. And especially if you have a hotel where you have an owner, there is a personality. That's like where the stars are coming from their authenticity. And I'm sometimes at universities. And I posed the question, do we all need a vision? And the answer is no. We have visionaries, and therefore we go to work for visionaries. We say I believe Vision. That's where I would like to work.

But the purpose and that, of course, was coined very much by Simon Sinek. I mean, it's a great book. I think everybody should read to understand what we discussed before, how, what, why, and how to prioritize. And he also says, Start With Why we discuss your start with purpose. And when you realize that point, you know, that's what I would like to change in the world to discuss about it. That's something intrinsic, that's something very personal. And when we go through these exercises with clients, it's astonishing what comes out there, what they are. For example, I really don't like all these rules and regulations, and that hotels, in my case, have to look the same. I really dislike it also that people need to be all the same. I guess that's the reason why I create total concepts to tell her that here's No, please be unique.

Do tell your story, create your hotel, like minded people will understand you. So I really believe that that's like, always distorting what you would like to create, to change and so on? And to give maybe some assistance to listeners, it's often good as I did, to think first about what is something that you always despised? What are you always standing against? What is really bothering you? What makes you angry? And I guess, Christine with you is when you see there is no gender equity. So you set and let's that's my purpose. But that's always a good start to think about. And that's something that doesn't doesn't change over and over in our life, there are things that really bothers us. That's like, where do we start? And then what you mentioned before, then we decide what we are going to tackle this year? And then it's five steps. And that's good. And at the end of the year, we said, Yes, we saved energy, or yes, we have now a more diverse team. And we did a big thing, because the hotel hopefully will exist again, 10 years. So in 10 years, we have implemented 50 steps. As mentioned, step by step, that's the most important. Yeah,

Christine Winebrenner Irick 32:34

I think that for me is so magical in this process, too, is that we get to be human at work, because we're thinking about what matters to us, and then allowing our business to embody that, which I think isn't something we've really done in the past. Like you've said, like, here's your hotel, here's your hotel, here's your hotel, and they all kind of have a general sense about them are similar, and you maybe don't know where you are from one place to the next, which I think is one of the worst things when I worked in event planning is you would go and you'd spend all day in a hotel.

But you never really knew where you were like, it just didn't tell you a story. It just served some function. And when you are starting with this, why and then you take that really back to a personal level, whether it's a board or one individual with a boutique like to bring that to life. And I was reminded of a book I just read the awakened woman by Dr. Terror i trends, and she talks about your great hunger, which is like that thing that that keeps you awake, like and kind of also what is the change you're trying to create. It's like the one thing that you're not okay with in the world. It's the thing that you just, every time any issue comes up, you kind of find that thread within an issue.

You just notice it's there. And I think that's so amazing to think about that. And in the context of business. Like I said, the hotel I found first in Switzerland was Josephine's guesthouse. And in that property, they set aside many of their rooms for women who have been victims of domestic violence so they have a place to go and I just thought, for me personally, this was like the most perfect place for me to want to stay. And then that property filled up while I was looking, but they had another property Alma and again, like going to that and experiencing it, especially after having a conversation with you, like experiencing what they had created. Like when you walked into that property, there's no front desk, so You just walk in and you talk with someone like a person, which is amazing.

And there's then a fireplace, and there's all these gathering spaces. So this property tells me, it's here for community, it's here for connection. And then like all local food is noted on display. And like, the whole time I moved through it, it was an experience. And so unlike this other hotel where I don't know where I am, I constantly was being reminded of where I was, what I might feel, how they wanted me to, like, relax into their space. And so it was a really cool experience. In a way I hadn't really thought about a property before. But it started for me with that values connection, where I knew these were people who saw the same inequities in the world and wanted to do something about it. And now their property shows me that if that makes sense. And I just loved that experience.

36:02

Totally. And I mean, but you described a partner of ours in Norway who had the best term for it. What's the premier leaf hotel, it's all the same shit, same wrapping. How to say better. And I mean, what you just described, I think a lot of people before they understand that purpose talk that we are doing here, they are like, Oh, what are they talking about, and we're running a business, I'm running a hotel.

But I always try to tell them about a hotel. Now, look, once you know, where you can make an impact where you are passionate about, you will be good at. So if you are, for example, someone we have a client who loves sport, who'd like to see people moving, get healthy, use your body, go out into the new age, nature and not stay in front of the smartphone, she created such amazing sports residents. And she's good at it. And the people who are coming there feel at home, because they know they can talk with Yulia about moving into the mountains.

And then we say that's why we create a particular term, we always give the stupid example, it doesn't help you if a consultant tells you owe a vegan restaurant is now where you will make the best profit. But you go home every evening and eat a steak. It's not going to work out. So therefore this purpose, even if it's a bit of a theoretical term, it's so it's for profit in real life. Let's put it all together like this.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 37:45

Yeah, I think that's so yeah, there's just so many pieces. And I think a lot of entrepreneurs, you know, you're given a map of what you should do to be successful. But I mean, we just keep coming back to the same place. If you don't know why you want to be successful, you're actually not going to be successful. Because you've, you've just, you don't have anything that you're really passionate about creating. And so and then when you're connecting, I think purpose and profit. If you go into a place that feels so rich, because of the passion you have for what you've created, people are going to go back and people are going to tell their friends and people are going to share that experience on social media.

And then your purpose and your passion are becoming your profit because you've created something that's much more powerful than if you were trying to create whatever buddy else's, or whatever the trend is, or, you know, follow the checklist. You have to bring your authenticity to it in order to attract your like minded client. And also what you had said before is like all this too many. We shouldn't want all that just that feels so uncomfortable. But also somewhere in that mindset. We have been trying to have all and serve all and so yeah, I think it's so so there's so much freedom and not having to do that. Yeah,

39:09

and of course also here we've learned such a lot over the last years, we grew up in a different system and I'm not against capitalism. I'm just against a capitalism that has no end. And that was the system that we grew up with. And now studies are coming out as for example, in 2020. There were two big studies from cantar group but from Zeno and from Zeno group and they said nowadays, customers, they are looking for consumers I have to say enough customers consumers are looking for purposeful brands.

That's like a proactive thing now. And to be honest, also myself 10 years ago, I didn't think oh for what is this brand standing or what's the purpose why am I supporting so everything Shifting and it's shifting as what you mentioned to a more conscious and more responsible, and also a more of their society that that now realizes, oh my gosh, my decisions have power, I can decide to whom I give the money. Am I going to work with a standard company or with us? Now I'm using my example with a big corporation, where I'm sure they are working with the highest standards, talking about social and environmental responsibility. And here, we also have to give ourselves all the credit that five years 10 years ago, we couldn't put words to it. We just didn't know it. And so it's good, you know, step by step.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 40:49

Yeah. Yeah, no, I think that's really valuable, too, is that people sometimes also, because we didn't have language for it before. Now we do. And as we look back, we see maybe the errors that we made, or things that we wish we could have done differently, but we didn't know. And then we get caught up in that instead of just moving forward. So I think it's great now that there's more conversations and more questions, and I think more progress is being made than ever before. One thing that I would love to bring into this conversation before we end, so I was lucky to do an interview for your sustainable hotel, one of your guides, one of your books that you're putting together and one of the questions that you ask is how we can attract talented women to our teams and how we can keep them. And I also just talked a little bit about this with Emily gold Fisher, who's the editor in chief at her Tellier so if people are curious about that, they can listen to her interview as well. But I really wanted to bring your thoughts and perspectives on this to this conversation. This is something that started coming up for me in Switzerland, as I was talking to people at all my house, and you know, with you, and so many innovative ideas started to surface. So I'm really just curious about what your thoughts are, and how we can bring more women into the hospitality industry into leadership into sustainability?

42:25

You Yes, I guess the most basic answer is that we look at the very clear barriers that are there. To have nowadays, a board of five men shouldn't be anymore existing. That's very clear, we all have to raise our voices. And there are a lot of these situations where we just have to say, look, it's 2022. Honestly, your whole sea management consists of 10 men, it's just not anymore happening. For me, I always also look at the other side. And when I'm at universities and talking to young women, I feel on the other hand, it's amazing that we now have all this data and information where we see okay, here, we truly have a problem. However, I often feel that these young women get biased with it, like, oh, my gosh, I will never get this management position because I'm a woman.

And I always tell them, we know it. But don't plant that seed into your head. Just don't do it. It won't help you go out there, ask for the job, you know, do whatever you would like to do, and we will work on it. But that I feel is so important nowadays, where all this data is coming in. And I often feel like women, before they do something, they are even afraid that they are not getting hired because they see Oh, mostly this percentage of men get hired not women. So that I think is now a very important part. The second part of it is we women have to get so much better at supporting women. If we look out there, or if I look in my environment, in my community, we are always talking about the men who do not support us. But there are so many men out there who are fully and totally supporting us, who are trying to put us in places, invite us to talks, support us, push us, and try to get us the job. And we never acknowledged that. And I think that's also very important to state.

But I often see a lack of support from women, helping each other connect with each other networking. So that's something where I feel we have to get so much better, because still our conversations are sometimes Should you have a career? Or should you have kids? Should you stay at home, blah, blah, blah. So as long as we are not pushing us to help us, whatever the choice is, I think we have to get stronger at that. And the third thing is what we are doing right here. And that's, for example, that in account the manager at the hotel, you were saying, told me once, if someone invites me, as a woman, someone, we have to show up? And it's sometimes not easy, because sometimes I feel okay, did they invite me now? Not in this case? But when you have these male panels?

Did they invite me now because I have to be the only woman sitting there? Or did they invite me because of my expertise because of my company. But nevertheless, I will never forget how she told me that we have to show up. We have to look, I'm running a company, and it's successful, it's making an impact. And I think that's important that we as women, don't wait for anybody else. But start doing this thing supporting each other, not being afraid, because there are such a lot of difficulties out there, but also to show up to raise our voices.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 46:20

She mentioned that to me when I was with her as well. And actually, I heard that, again, from several other women as I was attending conferences and talking a little bit about this. And that was just an interesting awareness for me is, you know, that you have to be showing up so that someone else in that room sees you. And it's that yes, that they need, because they saw you and they know that space is available to them. And I think the thing that was really interesting when you were talking about the data, and women internalizing that data as the thing that will hold them back, I thought that's really interesting, because my daughters are like, just natural born feminists, because they will say, okay, my math teacher told me that he knows he gets paid more than the woman who's also a math teacher, and they just come unhinged. But at the same time now they have heard that men math teachers are getting more than women. And so they internalize that somewhere in their subconscious, so that later when that happens to them, they just go, oh, well, I remember that's the way it is. And will they lose their fight? Or, you know, will it become a part of what keeps them in their place? I guess I just hadn't thought about that before or like, when we hear that data, does that become a part of the problem?

47:50

Yeah, and I just realized that now at universities, I grew up with a brother and a sister, and we were totally equal. So for me, there was never a thought that I could not become president or a CEO or a gardener. I mean, my family told me whatever you would like to do, do it, you get the education, you can do whatever you want for your new generation. And so I never thought about when I was applying for a job.

Am I not getting it? I was short, like, I can get it, you know. But now often, I feel like these women are like that already? Or maybe I'm not even trying or they are. And I think it's important that we raise our voices. But it's not always good if we are going straight against something. So to say, Look, I'll give you a very practical example. And you're pitching, we are asking or someone else has an offer. And afterwards, they say no, we are going with another agency. It's never my thought to think they go to an agency that is led by men. Never. My thought is always like, that's interesting.

Let's ask why. Let's ask. And then we do our best. We were maybe a client's fault then afterwards. It's because of men. But maybe then the client also thinks that's maybe not the best choice. I did. But you know, and so my reaction is always yeah, let's get better. Let's learn, let's not be biased here, we can become better. And in the end, if we are good enough, no one will decline us just because of gender. And I truly believe in that as well. So that's something where of course we can ask for many changes and we have to ask for them.

But I see so many areas where we as women have the chance to help each other to show our faces to to support each other and to help each other as well. reach different positions, run a company and I always think as you noted by now, step by step, what's the first and the next step I could do? And that's, for example, what I'm trying to do. And someone else will say, I'm going for the legislation. And I'm thankful to that woman.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 50:15

Yeah, thank you. I think that's really, really helpful. And I think, as we've already also said, it just gives me so many more questions to ponder about, like, what would my response be in that situation? And, you know, Where's that coming from? Do I have a bias? I didn't understand. And I think, yeah, it's just, it's so interesting to see how we respond to certain situations and what things are systemic and what things are, you know, behaviors that we've learned, or what are, you know, just like our life experiences playing out in a different way, like you said, because you had, you know, a brother that you felt that equilibrium? And yeah, it just, it's so interesting how all of those different pieces of ourselves show up in our business, which I think again, comes back to that thing of, we have to acknowledge that we are humans in business, because it becomes a part of, of everything moving forward, instead of being business owners and employees. We are people who have businesses and people who are employees. And that just allows us a lot more room to figure out how the pieces work together.