Episode 126 - Zina Bencheikh, Intrepid
Join us for the first episode of the special four-part interview series on the Soul of Travel Podcast, partnering with Women in Travel (CIC) to bring you exclusive conversations with their community members to set the stage for the upcoming International Women in Travel and Tourism Forum, being held on June 22nd at Google headquarters in London.
Making Travel and Tourism More Inclusive
This week’s Soul of Travel Podcast guest is Zina Bencheikh, Managing Director of the EMEA region of Intrepid Travel, the world’s largest travel B-corp regarded as a leading advocate for gender equality.
Zina is driven to make the world a more inclusive and equal place through tourism. She's created economic opportunities for women and broken down gender barriers in countries where women have been traditionally excluded from paid work and equal access to education, such as her home country of Morocco, where she is working to increase the number of female tour guides and mountain guides in the country.
Through her work with Intrepid Travel, Zina experienced a shift in the ways in which she sees women in tourism and the opportunities for women in leadership in travel and tourism to make an impact on gender equity on a global scale.
Intrepid specializes in small group adventures that take people to over a hundred destinations across seven continents. Intrepid tours are immersive, carefully designed small group experiences led by local leaders and tour guides.
As Zina’s roles expanded more into leadership, she began to recognize a common question that subtly – and sometimes, not so subtly – came her way. “Why is she here?”
Zina chose to interpret this challenge as an opportunity, acknowledging the potential impact she would be able to make by looking into the eyes of all the women who would see her in this position. She began to realize she had a responsibility to truly create change through tourism and travel, and implement innovative solutions toward more responsible and equitable travel practices.
This became her mission: To bring her voice and her passion for change and leverage partnerships to reduce gender inequity through travel.
The International Women in Tourism and Trade Forum
Just over one year into her GM role at Intrepid, Zina connected with Women in Travel Founder and CEO Alesandra Alonso, who invited her to speak on a panel at the World Trial Market in London regarding gender equality.
Zina notes that this was the first place in which she had heard the question of women in travel be raised and discussed, and as Alessandra and Zina reflected on the experience, they discussed the need for a forum to speak about challenges that women face in travel and tourism and best practices for creating gender equity and equality through travel.
The idea for the International Women in Travel and Tourism Forum was created. The first forum, hosted in Iceland in January of 2020, included women in high-level leadership positions sharing, learning, and discussing women's challenges and competing roles in the tourism industry and beyond.
In the episode, Zina shares that travel and tourism are at the forefront of the wider economy when it comes to closing the gender pay gap, increasing inclusivity, and making widespread global shifts in a number of sustainable development goals such as those listed below.
“IWTTF has become renowned as an open, dynamic, authentic and engaging platform, leading discussions on Diversity, Equity and Inclusion within travel and tourism, with the passionate objective of developing a more equitable, sustainable, and successful industry. It will be an opportunity to hear and learn from inspiring individuals across the industry – from senior leaders and dynamic entrepreneurs at the top of their careers to people whose lives are directly impacted by some of the topics debated throughout the day, and who will share their experiences.”
“There is a potential and opportunity for the travel industry to be a massive driver of gender equality, or reducing gender inequalities. It employs one in ten people in the world. So if we invest in travel, we can make change in the world for everyone.”
Soul of Travel Episode 126 At a Glance
In this conversation, Christine and Zina discuss:
The unique challenges women in the tourism industry face
Driving innovation toward more responsible ways of travel
Increasing inclusivity in travel
The intersection between travel and social justice
The International Women in Travel and Tourism Forum
Intentionally creating jobs for women in efforts to eradicate poverty and eliminate the gender opportunity gap
Join Christine now for this soulful conversation with Zina Bencheikh.
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Related UN Sustainable Development Goals
Sustainable Development Goal #5: Achieve gender equality and empower all women and girls.
Sustainable Development Goal #8: Promote sustained, inclusive and sustainable economic growth, full and productive employment and decent work for all.
Sustainable Development Goal #10: Reduce inequality within and among countries.
Sustainable Development Goal #11: Make cities and human settlements inclusive, safe, resilient and sustainable.
Sustainable Development Goal #13: Take urgent action to combat climate change and its impacts.
Sustainable Development Goal #14: Conserve and sustainably use the oceans, seas and marine resources for sustainable development.
Sustainable Development Goal #15: Protect, restore and promote sustainable use of terrestrial ecosystems, sustainably manage forests, combat desertification, and halt and reverse land degradation and halt biodiversity loss.
Sustainable Development Goal #17: Strengthen the means of implementation and revitalize the Global Partnership for Sustainable Development.
Resources & Links Mentioned in the Episode
Learn more about Women in Travel (CIC)! https://www.womenintravelcic.com/
Register for the International Women in Travel and Tourism Forum in London at https://iwttf.com/.
To learn more about Intrepid, visit the website at https://www.intrepidtravel.com/us.
To find out more about how Education For All is working to break the poverty cycle, visit the website at https://www.efaglobal.org/.
Find your copy of Playing to Win: How Strategy Really Works by Roger Martin from your local independent bookstore or by visiting https://rogerlmartin.com/lets-read/playing-to-win.
To read more about Zina’s efforts to increase the number of female guides in Morocco, visit https://femmesdumaroc.com/femmes/maroqueens/legalite-des-sexes-dans-le-metier-de-guide-touristique-un-challenge-dintrepid-travel.
To learn more about Intrepid Travel, visit the website at https://www.intrepidtravel.com/us.
Follow Zina and Intrepid on your favorite social media network!
Connect with Zina on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zina-bencheikh-694b0043/
Follow Intrepid on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/intrepidtravel/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Intrepid_Travel
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/intrepid-travel/
And Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/intrepidtravel/
About the Soul Of Travel Podcast
Soul of Travel honors the passion and dedication of people making a positive impact in the tourism industry. In each episode, you’ll hear the stories of women who are industry professionals, seasoned travelers, and community leaders. Our expert guests represent social impact organizations, adventure-based community organizations, travel photography and videography, and entrepreneurs who know that travel is an opportunity for personal awareness and a vehicle for global change.
Join us to become a more educated and intentional traveler as you learn about new destinations, sustainable and regenerative travel, and community-based tourism. Industry professionals and those curious about a career in travel will also find value and purpose in our conversations.
We are thought leaders, action-takers, and heart-centered change-makers who inspire and create community. Join host Christine Winebrenner Irick for these soulful conversations with our global community of travelers exploring the heart, the mind, and the globe.
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Credits. Christine Winebrenner Irick (Host, creator, editor). Zina Bencheikh (Guest). Original music by Clark Adams. Editing, production, and content writing by Carly Oduardo.
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WE WON A BESSIE AWARD! The Bessie Awards recognize the achievements of women and gender-diverse people making an impact in the travel industry. To view the complete list of 2022’s winners, visit bessieawards.org.
Soul of Travel Episode 126 Transcript
Women’s travel, transformational travel, sustainable travel, social entrepreneurship, small group tours, small group tours for women, Intrepid Travel, Women in Travel CIC
Christine:
I'm Christine Winebrenner Irick, founder of Lotus Sojourns, and passionate advocate for gender equity in the tourism industry. Welcome to this special interview series on the Soul of Travel podcast. Soul of Travel honors, the passion and dedication of women making a positive impact around the world in the tourism industry. I'm excited to partner with women in Travel c iic to bring you exclusive conversations with their community members to set the stage for the upcoming International Women in Travel and Tourism Forum, being held on June 22nd at Google headquarters in London. This partnership is important to me because of the aligned missions of Soul of Travel and Women in Travel, which is founded by my past podcast guest, the plural nominated award-winning founder Alessandra Alonzo. It is a UK-based social enterprise dedicated to empowering all women using travel, tourism, and hospitality as a force for good. They offer employability, entrepreneurship, mentorship, and male allyship programs and communities.
Christine:
In this episode, I'm speaking with Zina Bencheikh. Zina is the managing director, E M E A for Intrepid Travel, the world's largest travel B Corp regarded as a leading advocate for gender equality. Zina is driven to make the world a more inclusive and equal place through tourism. She's created economic opportunities for women and broken down gender barriers in countries where women have been traditionally excluded from paid work and equal access to education, such as her home country of Morocco, a highly qualified finance professional with deep operational tourism experience. Zina is helping intrepid travel navigate a responsible and equitable response to the ongoing crisis facing tourism due to the pandemic. In our conversation, we speak about the unique challenges of women in the tourism industry, the importance of forums like IW ttf to share these experiences and Zina’s drive to have more women involved in tourism, especially in Morocco where she is working to increase the number of female tour guides and mountain guides in the country. If you are inspired by this conversation and want to connect with other women influencing change, be sure to join us for the International Women in Travel and Tourism Forum. Join me now for my soulful conversation with Zina.
Christine:
Welcome to Soul of Travel podcast. I am really excited today for this special interview in collaboration with Women in Travel CIC, and happy to be joined by Zina Bencheikh, who's the managing director of the E M E A region of Intrepid Travel. And I have been really looking forward to this conversation, so I can't wait to learn from you and have your share your expertise in this conversation with us.
Zina:
Thank you so much for having me. It's a great pleasure for me.
Christine:
Thank you. Well, to begin our conversation, Zina, I would just love to turn it over to you actually, and give you a moment to introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about, uh, the work that you're doing right now at Intrepid.
Zina:
Sure. So obviously I'm, my name is Zina. I've been, um, working in the travel industry for 13 years now. My background is not in travel. I came from a finance auditing background. Um, you know, working in Paris, uh, big, big corporation. Found myself in the travel industry a bit by mistake or, you know, by chance. Um, in 2010 when I found this, um, finance director role, um, within Intrepid in Morocco, it was one of their newest offices. Um, and I was looking for a finance job in, in Morocco back home to, so I could come back and settle back home where, um, you know, I was just, um, um, you know, just got married and just decided to, to return home for that. Um, I followed then, um, my carrier in 13 years. I think I had six different jobs, so a lot of promotions, uh, lots of opportunities that Intrepid has offered to me from finance director for Europe and Morocco to regional finance director for the Europe, middle East and North Africa region.
Zina:
And then become a general manager for Europe and Morocco, and then a regional general manager for Europe, Morocco, and North Africa. Then I decided to move to, um, the UK in 2019, and I spent two and a half years, uh, running the UK market for the UK Europe market from our UK hub in London, uh, for Intrepid. So Intrepid is the largest, um, adventure travel, one of the largest adventure travel companies in the world. We are specialized in small group adventures that take people in more than a hundred destinations across seven continents, uh, on small group tours that tend to be immersive, um, that are led by local tool leader tool guide, um, where we stay in locally owned accommodation, mostly used public transport and explore the destination, um, as a local. Um, if I wanna summarize.
Christine:
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, thank you for sharing. Um, and over the course of the interviews that I've done here at Soul Travel, Intrepid definitely comes up a lot when we're talking about meaningful travel and impactful travel and innovations and, you know, kind of really being able to shift the paradigms in travel. So it's really exciting to be able to have you here and, and have you representing, you know, that part of the conversation that, that we're hearing about so much. Um, I would also, you, you know, you mentioned that you didn't start in tourism, but, you know, you kind of fell into, fell into it and then really started to lean into that work. Uh, what, what has really kept you engaged in the industry and started to kind of shape your focus on responsible tourism, um, empowering women in travel, community-based tourism? I know those things are, are all things that you're really passionate about. Um, what really keeps you focused in that region?
Zina:
Look, um, when I started with Intrepid, I had no idea what Intrepid was about and what Small Group Adventure was about. And in fact, it's, it's a lot of people in this world that don't travel in small group adventure and, and responsible travel or sustainable travel has become a bit more known now. But, you know, 10, 13 years ago, it was still a niche and not very, very, very known. First thing that really stuck me is when I started, uh, in Morocco, I saw this style of travel that was truly giving back, that had this amazing impact on, on the communities, the people, um, you know, the, the partners that we had locally that were supporting through the Intrepid Foundation, philanthr, uh, the Intrepid Foundation, which is our philanthropic arm. And I was thinking, wow, these people are not even Moroccan and they're doing good, good stuff in, in, in my own country.
Zina:
And, and I just thought it was fabulous to, that this style of travel could exist. I then went on my first intrepid trip in Thailand, and I could experience it myself in another country and truly enjoyed it and, and really felt passionate about this, this style of, of traveling. And as I became a general manager, I think this is where the shift really, um, has become important. I realized I was quite young as a woman, uh, in the leadership position, uh, in the travel industry in Morocco. And, um, it was challenging to many extent. Uh, you know, there was always that question, why is she here? You know, is is it, is it a place for women? But then I saw the shift in all the women's eyes looking at me like, wow, if she can do it, then I could do it as well.
Zina:
And then this is where the change really started to, to, to become apparent for me. And I started to realize I had a responsibility, um, and in my job as a general manager actually can make change and it can, you know, gi be an example and drive, um, innovation toward more responsible ways of traveling toward, uh, uh, a travel industry that's been more inclusive. Um, and, and I just have that possibility because I'm a GM and I work for the right company that enables us to do that as well. So that's really where it has started to become, for me, almost the mission, if that makes sense. And a responsibility. And, and as I've been growing into my different positions, I had the ability to meet people to, because of, you know, having bigger title and more responsibilities, you get to know more people and you, you, you become part of, you know, sometimes board meetings or, or, or, you know, part of, of, of meetings in general where the only women, the only women of color, that's for sure.
Zina:
Um, and so you feel like you can bring a voice and create a change and use that power for that. So that's what I've really tried to do, um, since then, um, leveraging partnerships to, to, you know, make the travel industry more inclusive as well. That's something that I was really, I am very passionate about. Um, can talk more about examples if you want, but there've been lots of initiatives that we, you know, we've been DR Driving because we could see the impact, um, that it could drive, um, especially when it comes to empowering communities. So for example, um, given them access. Look for example, in, in Morocco, if I wanna be specific, we've got this, um, association called Education for All that gives access to, uh, education to young girls who otherwise wouldn't have access to education. Because in rural areas, sometimes literacy rate gets to 80%.
Zina:
So we, we actually don't send, or parents don't send their girls to school because just far away they're not enough schools. And then because I was a GM in Morocco and I had the choice, the opportunity to choose the partner to support through our foundation, um, I could actually make the choice to choose education for, to help them and make their impact bigger so we can actually get more girls in Morocco educated. And then obviously we know education is a start of empowerment. It then lead to, to work and, and financial independence. And so that's again, the kind of responsibility I felt I had. Um, I am a very lucky Moroccan woman because my parents have invested in my education, my sisters as well. We've been overseas. We've had, you know, had the chance to just, um, be educated the best in the best universities and, and schools possible. And, uh, I know it's not the case of the majority in my own country and expanding this to the entire region that I now look after, um, it's, it's something that I'm, I feel very passionate about because I feel I can make a difference and use it for, for good.
Christine:
Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that. And I, I think, um, I loved hearing, you know, kind of your journey that this wasn't where you started. So you were looking for a position in finance, but as you witnessed what Intrepid was doing and could do, I love that you embraced the possibilities that were given to you to kind of step into that role and, and really start to create some significant change aligned with your values and your passions. And I think that, um, I think that's really exciting about tourism. I've talked a lot about how much travel in, you know, intersects with social change and social justice. And because we are in all of these places touching all of these places, there's really a lot of opportunity for impact. And so I get really excited when I start to see that happening and people being able to step into those roles and be really conscious about the impact that they are creating.
Christine:
Um, I would really love to talk to you next a little bit more about International Women Tourism and Travel Forum. I know that this is the first of our conversations kicking off, getting excited and prepared for this event, and that this is, you know, really aligned with what you were just talking about. Their mission is something that you're really drawn to supporting. And I would love to talk to you about why you think it's so important to create a space for discussions on gender equity, diversity and inclusion, and how this is happening at this forum.
Zina:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, to tell you the story, back in 2018, I was on my one year, one year and a half in my GM role. Um, I was contacted by Alessandra, who is the founder and CEO E of Women in Travel, to join a panel in at W T M, the World Trial Market in, in London. Um, that was about gender. Um, you know, it was, it was focused on gender, but gender equality. And she's, um, she's invited me. I've never been, at that time I was, I haven't been to W T M yet. So it was, it was something completely new for me. And I think, I've never been on a panel anyway, so I've never been doing any public speaking. So I, I've accepted gladly and I joined and I found myself sharing a panel with June Sarong, the b BBC presenter, I think she's b BBC or TV presenter, and then the first Lady of Iceland.
Zina:
So that was <laugh> quite a, quite a challenge. But what we found in that conversation that was really well attended and, and a great conversation is that it was a start. Something started, it was the first time ever that in a very large international space in the travel industry, the question of women in travel was raised and was discussed. And we ended up at the panel, and I'm a very, I'm very action focused type of person, and I think Eand is the same thinking and talking publicly about, okay, so what's next? And we are literally talked about the need of a forum that's a regular forum where we can talk about challenges that women face, uh, best practices, you know, learn about some of the examples of, you know, great practices or best practices that individual businesses are doing and, and just create that, create that space that didn't exist.
Zina:
And that's how the International Women in Travel Forum idea came. And that was in November, 2018, in January, 2020. So a year and a couple of months later, we actually hold the first one in Iceland and the first days of Iceland hosted it. So as part of that conversation, so that was, that was incredible in my opinion, to see the actions, you know, like just following the, the talks. And that doesn't happen always like this. And that first forum was exactly about what I was saying about, it was about sharing, learning. I remember discussions or panels that happened where we had very high level, um, women in, in like women in very high level positions talking about the challenges of, you know, the triple loads when you start to have kids and you've got to juggle with juggle with, you know, kids and work and, and being a wife or partner or whatever.
Zina:
Like, just this kind of very honest and, um, kind of role discussions that we, we didn't really have a space to talk about, to share about. And just being able to talk about them was already, uh, great because you could see, um, you know, that you're not the only one. Um, and so that was the, the first step. And then since then we held two more, um, one virtually during the pandemic and another one in London last year. And each time it become, to me, the best travel industry event in the year. And it was so well attended that we had a, like a waiting list. I think more than a hundred people were in the waiting list for last year. So we didn't have enough space. So Google are hosting the, the, even since then have decided to double the capacity. So we've got now the, the biggest, I think one of the biggest venue in in London, uh, to host it.
Zina:
And again, the topic and the, the conversations are all about the same thing, is just really learning, sharing, improving. Um, so we all get better and the industry is, gets better. And if I wanna finish on one thing is we, we are in an industry that is ahead of the larger or, or the wider economy. When you look at the statistic, and this is from the N W T O reports that went in 2018 about women in travel and in tourism, 54% of the workforce are women in travel versus 39% in the wider industry. 25% of ministry of tourism are women versus 20% in wider industry. Um, you know, I've got more of, of those stats. Oh, the gender pay gap is actually still not good enough, but it's still, uh, less, uh, big in the travel industry than it is in wider industry. So what we feel, and also I think it's more than 70% that the travel purchase are done by women.
Zina:
We state in our old company, our, the majority of our traveler actually women. So all of these statistics show that there is a, a potential and opportunity for the travel industry to be a massive driver of, uh, gender inequality or the reducing gender inequalities. Um, it employs one in 10 people in the world. So, you know, just these, these, these are kind of clear tactics. So if we invest in travel, we can make change in the world for everyone. And, um, and yeah, that's, that's really what's fa fascinated me about meeting Alessandra, learning about her work. And, and that conference really highlights a lot of these information and gives tips to, to business leaders to make their business, you know, um, better, uh, more diverse, um, not just about women, but in general.
Christine:
Yeah. Uh, thank you for running through some of those statistics. That's definitely a space I've been spending a lot of time in the, this year I've really been focusing personally on research in how sustainable travel can really support gender equity globally. And I think once you start looking at all the areas that tourism really does touch, you know, women and how you can create opportunity for women, you can see pretty quickly how there is so much opportunity to create a change. And, um, you know, I get pretty fired up and excited as well. And so I'm really excited to attend this event for the first time this year in London and just be in the space that Alessandra has created with all of these other incredible women to be able to have these conversations. I think there just has seen such a shift in the last few years, even how women are coming together in the industry.
Christine:
And I'm a part of several different women's leadership organizations in tourism. And the, the place that conversations were when we started those two or three years ago to now, there's just such an evolution of how we can support one another. And much like were saying, sometimes it's talking about really what it's like to be a woman working, and what are these different responsibilities? What, what barriers does that create? What opportunities does that create? How can we support leadership for women if we do have these challenges? And I think we're talking about it in a way that feels open and safe. Instead of trying to hide the fact that you're juggling all those things, you're actually saying, Hey, I'm juggling all these things. How do we make that work? And I just think even those like seemingly subtle shifts I, I think are gonna be really important into, to taking things to the next level.
Christine:
Pardon me to the next level. Um, and I, I did wanna speak to you a little bit about that specifically. You know, I speak with so many of my guests about their inter intersecting identities that how they shape the work they're doing. And, um, you know, for you, you know, you look at your roles as, um, Moroccan woman, senior leader, diverse woman, young leader, a few of these things that you've already mentioned. How do you think that's influenced where you are now and where you wanna go in the future? And, you know, kind of the decisions that you'll be making?
Zina:
Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, you start from, um, to me from a lower level when you are all these things, you know, because you, you start with, um, you know, you've got much more to prove, to get where you you wanna be or where you, you think you wanna be. Um, and so obviously it makes, it makes you work harder in a way to, to achieve your goals. And, and, and it shouldn't be like this, clearly it shouldn't be like this. I think we should, you know, businesses and the society should be supporting more, should be accepting that men and women are different. That, you know, the, the, like, you know, people from different typed back background are different. So there is a, how you call that, like a, um, is it, um, like a, like a white, white person privilege that really exists and it makes, you know, uh, people not in the same level when they start, if that makes sense.
Zina:
Yes. And so I feel like it, it should, it shouldn't be the case that we have to work twice harder to get where we are cuz I believe, um, I work for the right company that doesn't, um, make any discrimination. So I have been given a lot of chances that are the same than anyone else. Um, before I got there, I really had to work harder. I had to struggle through my studies, through my first jobs. Um, you know, I've been sometimes, um, you know, hearing discriminatory things that, you know, didn't make me feel like I was welcomed or I was in the right place. Um, and that's not normal. And I think that's, that's to me, you know, businesses really need to understand how important it is to put everyone in the same level because we, and I think we, women in general, without going into the details of yogo or from different background or whatever, we already under underestimate ourself.
Zina:
You know, I always say that often, you know, a man would go for a job if they feel they have 70%. We, I would go for a job if I fail. I have 110% <laugh>. And, and it's been reflected in my career because when I went for, um, I didn't go for my, the general manager role I was mentioning with Intrepid, I actually didn't go for it. I had, my boss at the time was women who told me for, like, asked me for little while and I was like, I'm not interested, I'm very comfortable in my finance role. But she said to me, look, it's okay. Just take it as an acting role for six months until we find someone. Just because there's no one has tenure as you, you can run the office, you know, the people and said, okay, if that's that's what you need, I'll do that.
Zina:
So I didn't even wanna go for it because again, I, I saw that I didn't have that 110% that I needed to be a gm. It's a big chunk for me. And it's the same with my managing director role that I'm in now. Our company c e o called me in, uh, on, no, I think it was October, 2000 and uh, 19 to offer me the role that was available at that time, you know, without interview with anything. So it shows how much trust they had in me and, and in my achievement. And I actually said, okay, I need a couple of days to think about it. And I get back to him, I said, sorry, I don't wanna take it because I just, I'm not feeling ready for it. And then it took me three months to get convinced that I actually was ready for it and I should take it.
Zina:
And the fact is that since I took it, I'm delivering quite well in my role and, you know, um, it's been a good move for me and for the business. And so I'm, no, I'm not the only one. And I work with women around, I've got four, one to three, three women general, general manager in my team. And I have senior women throughout my career. And I'm trying to get them to, to feel confident about their capabilities and their, cuz they're brilliant and they just often, because as women we feel like we are, we're one level below and we've got to prove ourselves. So I don't know if that makes sense, what I'm trying to say. Yeah,
Christine:
Absolutely. And it really resonates with, uh, a moment early in my career where I was applying for a job and I had a, a male colleague who I was friends with and I said I wanted to apply for this job, but if I was looking at the qualifications, I really felt like I didn't, you know, fit all of them. And I felt like maybe I, it wasn't the right role. And, you know, he was trying to convince me, he is like, absolutely you could, you already are doing most of these things anyway. And then looked at my resume and he's like, well, what are, this resume is horrible, you should be saying, you know, and he would take everything that I said were my qualifications and kind of like expand them and exaggerate them. He's like, this is how I would write my resume with your qualifications.
Christine:
And that was kind of my first awareness of how, of just what you're saying of how women kind of perceive, you know, what their qualifications are and really wanting to be overqualified and maybe apply for the job that's one step below where they're at or what they think they're comfortable with. Whereas, you know, often men that I've talked to are like, just apply for the job. All they can say is that you're not qualified or, you know, there's just such a different way of thinking about it. And I do think that comes from this idea that we already feel like we have to prove something and if we try to do something and then maybe don't do it well because we weren't prepared, we're kind of letting every woman down. Like it feels a little bit like a pressure that's more for the collaborative and maybe not just for ourselves. I don't know if you feel that a little bit as well, <laugh>.
Zina:
Yeah, well, I think we put too much pressure on us, and I've changed since, and I've decided that, not that I, you know, I think that kind of imposter syndrome is always there, but still, I, I feel like I have a responsibility to shout about what I'm doing, shout about what the successes I'm achieving, because other women will see it and other women will think that they can do it as well, because otherwise it doesn't help everyone else. And I think there's a lot of very amazing women that are too shy to talk and, um, just, you know, um, you know, humble. And it's a, it's a good thing to be humble and you know, that obviously it's something I wanna be, but sometimes you have to be a little bit more, um, you know, um, you need to, to shout a little bit more about what you're doing because we know that women in general, they have this issue about projecting themself and, um, you know, wanting perfection before, you know, moving up and, um, that lack of confidence, um, yeah, is is not helping them. And I think it's contributing badly to the gender pay gap that we have. It's women not negotiating the first salary, which is one of the reason of the gender pick app, um, you know, is, you know, we should be a bit more bold about it and, and show examples and Yeah, talk about this at least more. Yeah,
Christine:
Yeah, I agree. And that, I mean, that's also one reason why I really wanted to create this podcast is I wanted to give women a space to kind of, to, to talk about what they're doing and the work that we're doing and to just, you know, raise the overall awareness of the incredible work that women are doing around the world and maybe not being recognized for, um, as, as a way to contribute to closing that gap a little bit. Um, and one of the things that I really wanted to talk to you about is also kind of in this vein is, you know, working to create a positive impact and opportunity for women. We definitely know that it's there. We've both talked about the statistics of how many women are engaged in the workforce, but still creating higher level opportunities or more opportunities across the board. And I know you've been involved with, um, some initiatives in Morocco to help increase the number of female tour guides and recently just had some great shifts, um, in that area. So I'd love for you to talk about the work that you're doing there.
Zina:
Sure. Yeah. Uh, it's, it's, um, it's a story I'm very passionate about and it started again, um, Intrepid as a business has different goals as any business, you know, which chase profits, and we chase revenue and we chase different, you know, metrics as any business that is a for-profit business. Um, and as a GM you've got to deliver on those goals. So when I just started as a gm, one of my goal, um, was a purpose goal. So we always had a purpose goal. So it's either like a fundraiser goal around the traffic foundation, or it could be a big cooperated goal, like to improve our score for the, the following certification. And that year, specifically, the goal was about gender equality across or among our leadership team, not leadership like tool leader, uh, teams across the world. So when we looked at the numbers, um, from a more like a office work perspective, we, we were, we were quite good in, um, reflecting, uh, you know, re reflecting our customer database, I wanna say.
Zina:
So I think around 55 something percent of our workforce was made of women. And, um, problem was really when we looked at the tool guiding area, which is almost half of our workforce. So looking at, I think it was around 1000, uh, tour leader that we work with across the world. Uh, we had less than 25%, um, that were female. And then we start to dig into it to find that countries like, uh, Jordan, Morocco, Egypt, India, Cambodia had very little, actually Morocco, we had zero. So my entire team of tour leaders were made of men. So I never realized o thought that that was a problem before. We've been told you've got a goal now to address it. And the goal specifically was to bubble that number by, um, 2019. So I started to dig into this issue and I realized a few things.
Zina:
One is that obviously culturally this job is not necessarily seen in this countries as acceptable for women. So that's, that's the given no problem. I understand. However, when you look at the workforce in Morocco, women make 25% of the workforce. So at least there should be 25% of guys in Morocco that are women, at least, if not more, because we said the industry, the travel industry attract more women. So then when you start to look into, um, in, in the, into more details, we found out that there are two categories of guides in Morocco, the mountain guides and the city guide, the mountain guides, which are the ones that we mostly rely on to lead our trips because a lot of our trips include adventurous, uh, tracks or, you know, um, rural areas, you know, kind of walking, um, activities. And most of our guides are mountain guides.
Zina:
Well, 10 of them only in the entire country were women, so in the entire country. So really we had an issue. So if we didn't have women, it was because actually there were very little amount, very little amount. And if we wanted to change that, obviously there was that cultural shift that needed to happen. But I found it was happening cuz our office was full of women. We had women, women in leadership position. I know my country, I know that women wants to work. We have a very young population. Um, there's unemployment. So these kind kind of jobs are really well paid three, four times more than minimum salary. They're really well paid, they're open to the, to the work. They get you to interact with internet people from overseas in different countries. I have lots of leaders who ended up, you know, traveling overseas because of, of being in this job.
Zina:
Some of them even married, uh, foreigners live in different countries. So it's, it's an amazing job actually. It's a job that really opens your, your mind to different cultures. So then I realized that the problem was around the visibility, the awareness, and the access to the job. So the job wasn't visible, people were not aware what it was about, that it was web paid, that it was a great job and all of that. And then to access it, it was completely opac. We didn't know how to access it. And then you realize that it was, the regulation behind that wasn't quite right and the fact that in futurism was not issuing a licenses in a regular basis. And then I compared with countries like Egypt, which to me are a bit culturally behind Morocco, and this country had plenty of female guides because you just need to go to university, choose it as a specialty, and then you get your license and then you become a guide.
Zina:
And we had around 20 in our own team, so something wasn't quite right. And so that's why the work around getting the, the licenses issue to the, the in the country was just pushing, talking to Tism, using, uh, lobbying from the Australian ambassador at that time was a close friend, women who helped sending letters to the tism from conversations around a while, applications that we did for, to the Ministry of prison. And using this as a, as a way to actually say, Hey, do you, do you, are you gonna issue more licenses? We need more licenses, just create that. And one is that the private sector needed it. We then managed to get them to do a first test in 2018. And that first test has led to first us, uh, sponsoring and helping from girls from our own office, our own surrounding to actually get the license so they can work for us, but also other girls and women hearing about us and our initiative and then coming naturally to us because they were like, wow, this company wants to hire people like us, so maybe they're a good company.
Zina:
And that's how we started to have female guides. Today we have around 12 in the team of 120, so we still, not a lot, right? And so what we found out a couple of weeks ago is that a new test is going to be organized. We never stopped the kind of negotiation process we've used any opportunity to, to make that happen. And we are really pleased that it has happened. So the test is happening in May, and we are doing a campaign at the moment to get as many, many, many women possible, and we will help them with training, with logistical support, um, uh, so they can actually get access to this job and then we'll offer them jobs. Uh, once that's, that's happened. And the goal is 50% now <laugh>, it's not 12 out of 120.
Christine:
Yeah. Well, congratulations. Um, that's so exciting to see, you know, changes being made because of, you know, really analyzing the problem and understanding where, where you needed to, to put things into place to create the shift. And I, I am, um, really, really excited to hear this news and hope that that also creates, you know, opportunities for other countries to look at the same things and start to investigate, you know, how they can support women in these roles. Because as you mentioned, you know, they are obviously typically held by men, but they are such high paying, um, and really interesting opportunities. And I think it's really great to be able to get women into those roles, especially with the ways that I feel like women, um, tell the stories of their destination and engage people and connect people to their destination. I think it's such a, a really important role for women to be able to have.
Christine:
Um, so I'll look forward to, to hearing more and maybe we'll be able to follow up in a year and talk about the changes that have happened, um, as a, as a result of this. Um, to end our conversation, uh, I just have two more, uh, questions for you that are kind of, um, in our typical soul of travel, there are rapid fire questions, but I'm just going to, to lean into two of those with you. Um, the first is, uh, what are you reading right now? I feel like this one thing that often we get really inspired about and can, can expand what we're learning and studying. So
Zina:
Actually it's not the most inspiring book ever. <laugh>, I, I've got a, um, um, a better one, but this is, I'm actually literally, I'm reading this, uh, you can't see it, but it's written, I can't see it, but it says, playing to Win how strategy really works. And it's by Agley who is, um, former chairman and c e o of Proctor and Gamble, and it's all about strategies, product strategies, market strategies, things that help shape, um, business strategies to, to win in whatever market or product they have. So it's, uh, it's not like related to today's topic, but it's very important for us, uh, to keep raising as senior leaders when you run businesses and you know, you're here to, to, to deliver, um, you know, successful, uh, you know, metrics and important to learn from what other businesses are doing. So that's, that's what I'm reading. It's a recommendation from Intrepid CEO James Daton. Yeah,
Christine:
Thank you. Yeah, I think it's, it's so important and there's, there's so, there's so many more resources and there ever has been available to us right now, so I think I, I always love seeing what people are reading in the moment. Um, the, the last question I have for you, soul of Travel is really a space. We're telling the stories of women recognizing, uh, the work of women. So I'd love to ask if there's one person who you, um, are inspired by or would like to recognize and honor the work that they're doing in this space.
Zina:
Well, there's many of them. <laugh> Yes, I know it's hard. There's many, I, I I actually say that our general manager in Morocco, HAA, um, she, when I, when I was moving to the UK and I had that promotion, I had to backfill myself with the, with a local GM dedicated to our Morocco office. That has become very big by then. And, um, I had in mind that I wanted a Moroccan local women. It's just, it was just in my head, it was my objective and I knew it would be very difficult. But finally she got inspired by, uh, my own story, by write, reading about it in the, you know, news of social media. And we were her clients, so she used to run a bank, uh, that we used to, to work with. Um, and so, um, it's funny because the bank lost us as a business and they lost their GM as well because she joined us <laugh>.
Zina:
And so since then, she's, she's been very tough for her because the pandemic hit very quickly after, but she's been, um, keeping things together really well and, um, never forgot about the reason why she joined. And now that you know, this, um, you know, this, um, co like a test is happening with the guiding, um, you know, the guiding test is happening. She's been leading the effort to just get the team on onboarded. She's communicating everywhere. She's organizing the trainings, she's talking to media. She's been this week, you know, in three national radios to talk about the reason why we needed this job to, to, to be given to women. And uh, yeah, so she's doing an incredible job and it was very challenging in a very challenging period of time to, you know, to start in a travel industry from a banking background. But I think we, we've made the right, right hire. So I'll mention her for this one.
Christine:
Thank you. I appreciate that. And I also really appreciate you spending this time with us, uh, today here on the podcast. And I cannot wait to have the opportunity to meet you, um, in person soon in London, and hopefully also, um, as I'm traveling through Morocco later this fall and
Zina:
Let me know. Yes, absolutely. Send me details,
Christine:
<laugh>. Yeah. Thank you so much for joining me, <laugh>.
Zina:
Thank you. Thank you for having me. It was lovely.
You can find me on Facebook at Lotus Sojourns on Facebook, or join the Lotus Sojourns Collective, our FB community, or follow me on Instagram either @lotussojourns or @souloftravelpodcast. Stay up to date by joining the Lotus Sojourns mailing list. I look forward to getting to know you and hopefully hearing your story.