Episode 143 - Juliana Dever, CleverDever Wherever
Slow travel not only helps you as the traveler have a deeper, richer experience – away from the crowds – but creates a real exchange of humanity.
In this episode, Christine hosts a soulful conversation with Juliana Dever, a travel writer, photographer, actor, and TV host and the founder of Clever Dever Wherever.
Juliana is a cultural tour curator who has traveled to more than sixty countries and has lived in four (USA, France, Russia, and Greece). Each year, she spends several months abroad, connecting with locals and gathering insider information to help other curious travelers take more meaningful trips.
Combining her love of cultural connection with her natural storytelling abilities, Juliana works with women in Central Europe to develop small-group cultural immersion adventures in their home countries. These travel deep-dives work to support local female and family-owned businesses in Georgia, Croatia, Slovenia, Slovakia, and Poland.
Juliana has been featured on Fox’s Good Day LA and Smithsonian.com, and was selected by Frommer’s as someone shaping modern travel trends. As an actor, she’s best known for her role as Jenny Ryan on the globally popular show Castle and as Rachel Hawkerson on 9-1-1.
From “I Love To Travel” to “Come With Me”
Juliana loves connecting people with off-the-beaten-path destinations and the communities in these incredible places, but it hasn’t always been that way for her.
Juliana discovered travel through…The Wizard of Oz. Born in Missouri, she would fantasize about a tornado sweeping her to faraway lands (later understanding, of course, that tornadoes are not the safest mode of travel). She feels she was born with the travel gene, and first started her professional travel career by working for an airline.
She soon realized that it was natural for her to write and share about her travels. Her deep love of writing and her passion for sharing about places inspired her to launch CleverDever Wherever after fulfilling her dream of visiting the country of Georgia in 2015, knowing that so many travelers were missing out on this destination and that she could be the one to nudge them in the right direction.
Juliana uses this passion to help people adjust their perception of places and engage in travel experiences beyond the mainstream.
“What you get when you go beyond that is a deeper connection to the people, the culture, because they’re not so over traveled that it’s become unsustainable.”
Slow Travel, Deep Connections
Juliana appreciates and loves the collaborative art of performing and sees travel in much the same way. Slow travel, she explains, allows travelers to be a part of the story. And knows that when travelers spend the time to allow themselves to be changed by their visit to another place, they return home changed.
Christine shares that she would often feel the weight of her presence in places, careful to notice how she was disrupting the ways of life of the people she was visiting. She knew something felt “off,” but wasn’t sure what it was.
Now, Juliana and Christine agree, the balance of visiting places that are set up to serve tourists in a more equal exchange can be the norm for tourism going forward.
Juliana explains that she has an “aversion” to the types of places that have become overrun with lines of Instagram influencers, that have strayed from exchanges of the heart toward hollow tourist-serving versions of what was once deeply heartfelt.
She prompts travelers, instead, to find locally-owned and family-owned, community-based tourism experiences, accommodations, and places to enjoy, eat, and share time.
Engaging With Women in Travel
With more women seeking experiences to offer learning and understanding that are safe and deeply connective, Juliana finds that while she does not exclude men from her tours, nearly all her tours attract women travelers.
She also chooses tour operators and hosts for her tours that are primarily women, including home visits run by women, families, and local hosts to create autonomy and sustainability in their communities.
Answering the Call to Travel
Juliana and Christine spend time exploring the call to travel and our desire to make the world smaller, eliminate the feeling of “otherness,” and witness someone else’s story – and knowing that these deep connections can change and shift perspectives toward more connected humanity.
In Georgia in June of 2022, amid Russia’s attack on Ukraine, Juliana had a closing night dinner at a local restaurant. There is a sweet tradition of polyphonic singing, normally completed by men, and he invited a group of women to sing. Juliana describes the experience as nothing short of transcendent. The host thanked Juliana and her guests for visiting, sharing that he knew their message of love and joy would be shared with everyone they would meet upon their return. (Tune in to Minute 43 to hear Juliana share this powerful story from her recent visit to Georgia. You won’t regret it.)
The message: Everyone has something worth saving.
Soul of Travel Episode 143 At a Glance
In this conversation, Christine and Juliana discuss:
Traveling more slowly
Connecting with people in a meaningful way while traveling
Helping travelers move past the highly marketed versions of travel
Creating equal exchanges during travel
Traveling beyond the places on most people’s bucket lists
GOATS!
Join Christine now for this soulful conversation with Juliana Dever.
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Related UN Sustainable Development Goals
Sustainable Development Goal #3: Ensure healthy lives and promote well-being for all at all ages.
Sustainable Development Goal #5: Achieve gender equality and empower all women and girls.
Sustainable Development Goal #8: Promote sustained, inclusive and sustainable economic growth, full and productive employment and decent work for all.
Sustainable Development Goal #10: Reduce inequality within and among countries.
Sustainable Development Goal #11 Make cities and human settlements inclusive, safe, resilient and sustainable.
Sustainable Development Goal #17: Strengthen the means of implementation and revitalize the Global Partnership for Sustainable Development.
Resources & Links Mentioned in the Episode
Learn more about CleverDever Wherever!
Download your Free CleverTraveler Checklist Bundle!
Follow Juliana and CleverDever Wherever – and her travels – on your favorite social media network!
Connect with Juliana on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, Pinterest, or YouTube!
About the Soul Of Travel Podcast
Soul of Travel honors the passion and dedication of people making a positive impact in the tourism industry. In each episode, you’ll hear the stories of women who are industry professionals, seasoned travelers, and community leaders. Our expert guests represent social impact organizations, adventure-based community organizations, travel photography and videography, and entrepreneurs who know that travel is an opportunity for personal awareness and a vehicle for global change.
Join us to become a more educated and intentional traveler as you learn about new destinations, sustainable and regenerative travel, and community-based tourism. Industry professionals and those curious about a career in travel will also find value and purpose in our conversations.
We are thought leaders, action-takers, and heart-centered change-makers who inspire and create community. Join host Christine Winebrenner Irick for these soulful conversations with our global community of travelers exploring the heart, the mind, and the globe.
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Credits. Christine Winebrenner Irick (Host, creator, editor). Juliana Dever (Guest). Original music by Clark Adams. Editing, production, and content writing by Carly Oduardo.
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Soul of Travel Episode 143 Transcript
Women’s travel, transformational travel, sustainable travel, women leaders in travel, social entrepreneurship
Christine: When I first chatted with today's guest, Juliana Dever, we ended up pondering the question, how do we get travelers to move past the version of travel that is marketed to us and move them to more off the beaten path destinations? I'm so excited to dive into this more today. Juliana Dever is a travel writer, photographer, actor, and TV host. As an avid traveler, Juliana is always on the search for the local's perspective. This has led her to Volcano top gatherings with the entire population of a Greek island, camping with Bedouins in the Middle East and visiting with camel breeders in the Gobi Desert. Her thirst for connecting to other cultures and their people became the catalyst for her travel blog, clever dev wherever.com. When Juliana is not traveling, she's working in television. Best known for her role as Jenny Ryan on ABC's Castle. I love Juliana's content.
It's how I originally connected with her, so be sure you are following her on Twitter and Instagram at clever dev. In our conversation, Juliana and I talk about traveling more slowly, connecting with people in a meaningful way that offers an equal exchange, traveling beyond the places on most people's bucket list, especially in Europe. And we also talk about goats, yes goats. So be sure you listen all the way to the end to find out what that's about. She also shares about some of her upcoming trips. She has a few spots left on her fall experience in Croatia and shares a few great resources. Stay tuned for those two love the soulful conversations. We rely on listener support to produce our podcast. You can support me in amplifying the voices of women by making a donation on PayPal. The link is in the show notes. Join me now for my soulful conversation with Juliana Dever. Welcome to Soul of Travel podcast. I am so excited today to be joined by actor, blogger and goat fanatic, also to creator and experiential travel expert Juliana Dever. She's the founder of Clever Dev wherever, and I have been following you for so long as one of the places I go for finding kind of joyful travel content on Instagram and reached out a while back and I'm so glad that our paths are finally aligned, that we are both stationary at the same time and can have this interview. So thank you for joining me.
Juliana: Yeah, it's so exciting.
Christine: Thank you. Well, to get going, I would just love to give you the opportunity to introduce yourself. Tell us a little bit more about who you are in the space of travel right now.
Juliana: Yeah, so hi. Hello. Hello. I am, as you said, Juliana Dever. I've been traveling in my mind, I traveled as a little girl even though I didn't really get to go anywhere until I was an adult. And so it feels like I've been traveling forever, but I've actually been traveling for 25 years now, which is crazy. And I started just really being in love with travel and that morphed into sharing it through writing. And then that morphed into, because I'm such a huge champion of humans and how much I love them morphed into come with me. And so then I started creating tours and that's what I do now is really, and we'll really dig into it, which I'm excited to share, but really going to places that are a little left of center, a little off the mainstream and sharing that with people and helping them get to be really connected to the culture.
Christine: Yeah, thank you for sharing all of that. Well, you kind of gave us a quick synopsis, but I would love to hear about when you really did first discover travel. You sound like you were like me, that it was for me, it was in books and stories and my imagination. I feel like I was exploring everywhere around me and my walls when I was little, had both pictures of River Phoenix and Jamaica and Africa. So you could tell right away where I was headed. But I would love to hear when you really discovered travel and then what kind of clicked for you to make you take that jump into blogging and then create beginning to create these travel experiences.
Juliana: It's such an interesting thing that you say. I discovered it when I was little through books. And to me hearing that, I guess I haven't thought about it that way before, but I really love that because it's the magic of imagination and books and for me it was Wizard of Oz. It's always been my, I feel like my partial origin story, I was born in Missouri and I used to think if only a tornado would take me somewhere. I mean, I understand now that's not the safest mode of travel, but just the idea that the world was out there and knowing it was out there and I couldn't wait to see it. But it wasn't really available to me until I was older. It wasn't something anyone in my family ever did. We didn't have passports, we didn't go very far, but I feel like are some people born with it?
I don't know. And so as soon as I could, I started working for an airline and that I finally got to get on planes, expand where I could go, and I didn't look back as soon as I did it, I was like, of course, this is what I'm meant to do. And so it's funny because I decided, I think because I had traveled so much and people always wanted to know what do I do? Where do I go? I really like, you know what you're telling me about how you travel. And it seemed very natural at that point to create, to write about it, to share it also because it's more convenient. You can only write what to do in someplace so many times before you're like, here's a link. So I started and I also have a deep love of writing. So that happened in 2015 and without going into, I can tell so many side stories, but really succinctly.
I lived in Russia for a while, and from there I became completely enamored of Georgia, the country and finally got to fulfill the dream of going there and it was even better than I could have imagined. And I also realized that where they are in terms of accepting or facilitating travel, I think people wouldn't go there without a little extra help. And I wanted to be that conduit. I wanted to be somebody who could reach out and say, come with me. I can share this with you, really just so that other people could have that joy of experience. So that's where the travel company started.
Christine: Thank you for sharing that, and I love that we have that foundation in storytelling and we were talking really briefly about that before we hopped on here is that awareness that travel is really storytelling. And I think the reason that we both really love slow travel and taking the time to make connections is because that is when you start to see the story. And that's when I think even for me, I can see myself in it and I don't want to just get the highlight reel. I really want to have those moments. And if I look back over the most impactful experiences, they're always those times where maybe through planning or happenstance you have stopped and you're slowing down and you're sharing a meal or sitting around a fire or all of these places for community and connection. I just really love that idea. Then as you also mentioned that you wanted to be the conduit for that and bring other people into that experience. I feel very much the same way. That's part of why I started my travel company is because I thought, I just want as many women as possible to have this magic. I want to share this magic. It doesn't feel like it should be just mine. And so I kind of set off on how to do that. So I love, again, kind of the similarities in the past,
Juliana: And I love what you're saying about, there's so much to really dig into when it comes to the idea of being the meaningful experiences and part of the travel, and I think goes back to just this tiny little thing when I was really little because I'm also an actor as you mentioned, and there's just something about being part of it and that so many people are, oh, actors just want all the attention and well, someone needs to entertain us first of all. But second of all, it's really because it's such a collaborative art. And I remember when I was, I want to say three, and my uncle took me to the ice Capades and there was a moment where they had one of those ice carriages and they invited children and they would pull them and put 'em in there, and my uncle grabbed me and ran me down there and put me in there and I got to be on the ice and waving and at the end I was I part of the production.
That's what my mom would say. She's like, did you love it? I'm like, I was part of the production and you really about how if you can translate that to travel, the difference between going on a trip where you're almost backed and you're looking at things happening and the difference of how you feel when you're part of the production, when you're part of the story, when you're in the middle of it and you're not just watching people do things, but you're doing it with them, you come home and that's a memory that lasts forever and that makes travel so much more meaningful. That's what I hope to encourage others to do, either with me or without me.
Christine: Yeah. Oh gosh, I love that I have goosebumps and also seeing the person and me backstage or even the event planner part of me or when I did theater and even if you were doing crew, there's like you said, that part of you that has you in community and connection and that belonging, which is also, I think maybe another reason why people really start to travel is understanding who they are, how they belong in the world, how all the pieces fit together. And I think, again, there's a lot of relationships that are similar in those two environments.
Juliana: Yeah.
Christine: Well, one of the things I loved as I was getting to understand you as a traveler and was looking through your website is the way that you are literally moving through the world. And when I saw your list of places to visit in Europe, I was kind of expecting to click on the dropdown box and see France, Italy, Spain, Germany. This is kind of what you normally would see on a blogger's website. And instead I was seeing places that I was really excited about, like Slovenia and Croatia, Albania, Georgia. So I would love to talk to you about a little bit about how we can encourage people to move past that version of travel that they have been marketed and told is the way we should see certain places and really get excited about going places that people aren't as often told to travel and what the different types of experiences are that they can have once they start doing that.
Juliana: And I think some of it is about adjusting your perception. And you're right, it's so interesting when you say how we've been marketed to because it's true and there's so many layers of course to what countries were able to be set up for visitors versus others that may have been in different stages of emerging or conflicts that they got past in the last 50 years. So every country is in a different stage of emergence for sure, but we are now in a place where there are so many opportunities and there's so many places, and when you see everybody going to the same exact spot because that's what they see the photos of, it's understandable. First of all, of course you want to eat pasta in Italy, I get it, but did you know that you could go to Istria, which is a region in Croatia, everybody wants to go down to Dubrovnik, I understand it, but you go to Istria, which is a much less traversed area, and it was once part of the Venetian empire, so you're getting truffle pla and it's homemade and it's every bit as good.
And so that's to say that with complete understanding, of course there are spaces that you want to see because you've heard about it all your life. But what you get when you go beyond that is a lot of times a deeper connection to the people, the culture, because they're not so over traveled that it's become unsustainable, not stretched thin. They're, their resources aren't almost depleted. They're just human resources. If I talk to one more tourist, but there's places that we go and everyone is just so excited. This is one of the joys that I have with the travel that I do. I started doing tours in Georgia, then Slovenia, then Poland, and you see when we go certain places to markets where women will have all of the spices that they're selling for the day and they want to take pictures with us because they're so excited to hear about where we came from, they're like, where are you from?
Tell me. I want to know. And it's this beautiful human exchange. And so you really get such a fuller, richer experience and it's not crowded. You're not standing in a line of a thousand people waiting to get that one selfie. It is just a authentic experience. And I really believe at this point in our travel evolution, besides the fact that we desperately need to be more sustainable and we need to be, and that means a lot of things. We could unpack that all day, but sustainable from the receiving tourists. But you're getting just an authentic experience. You're getting people that are so happy to see you and you're getting a real exchange of humanity, which I love.
Christine: Yeah, I think that was one of the things that stuck with me the most when we talked before this interview was that idea of how much excitement there is for certain areas to receive travelers. And I think that also goes back to those moments I was talking about of connection because there is that moment where you feel invited into a space and you don't feel like you're a burden to a space. I think this was something I was really aware of early on as a traveler that I felt the weight of my presence. And I also felt like as a photographer, because that's one of my hobbies and passions as well, is this, I really was trying to grapple with how I sometimes felt like a voyeur. I was really disrupting someone's way of life. And this is probably 20 years ago, so we weren't having conversations that we're having today about things like that.
So I didn't have any language for understanding that. I just knew it felt uncomfortable or it felt like I should be aware of something that was happening, but I didn't know what was there. And so I think for me, when I travel outside of those places that are more commonly visited, I feel like that balance happens a little bit more easy. And like you said, it does take a toll on a destination to serve tourists. And there's obviously so many economic benefits and there's cultural benefits and there's all these things that happen, but I think you can take those and put them somewhere else just as easily. And also the thing of you were saying, well, I've always had the Eiffel Tower on my bucket list, so I understand that. I kind of want to see it too. I haven't, but I bet someday I will. However, I think there's all this magic that we just don't know is out there. So what I love is that you are kind of bringing some of that to the forefront.
Juliana: Yeah, I think I also, this is a funny dichotomy, but I have an aversion to having a facade of tourism presented to me as someone who works on fake sets that are created. But because of that, I sort of recognize that when you go someplace, nothing makes me just feel my hackles up. But when you realize that a space that maybe 10, 15 years ago, even 20, whatever, it just was, and then because for whatever reason this space got called out and it's something that's another thing we can talk about is what has Instagram done to that where it gets called out and then everyone wants to line up and be in that one place and take that one picture. So then this awful kind of exchange of just commerce and menus with pictures, which I understand maybe for the language barrier, but usually it means the food's not good.
They've sprung up, nothing's from the heart. It just is this commerce, this transaction where they've built a facade and you no longer you've traveled there and it feels so hollow. It feels like it was Disneyland or I went to Epcot center and I saw the fake version of France. And so that stuff I bristle at being marketed to in that way. So that's why I've tried so hard to even if you go somewhere, you go to Venice, I get it. I really do. It's magical. But how can you visit that space in a different place? How can you ensure where you're staying is not some kind of multinational conglomerate that's just not treating their workers equitably, that you're not really getting an authentic experience? Can you find someone who has built an inn and it's a local family, can you make sure you're doing, you are meeting with people that are local and they're creating experiences or not creating, but they're bringing you into their own experiences. And so I'm, that's everything I endeavor in my tours to do. They're very hyper-local, curated where if we go to an area, it's always female first. Are there women that have businesses? What are they creating and how can we share an afternoon with them? Because yeah, I just fake travel makes me crazy.
Christine: Yeah. Well, there's two things I want to touch on there. I want to go back to the conversation about engaging with women in travel, but when you were talking about these facades and these places that are created for tourists, I was reminded of living in San Francisco and people would always want to go see Chinatown. And so I would take them there, and I remember one time I was really curious about a certain tea or something that I wanted for a healing property and someone's like, oh yeah, well, they'll have it in Chinatown. And I'm going through Chinatown and I'm like, no, I am missing something because it is not here. And then I asked someone and they said, no, two streets over. And so I left the street that is marketed as Chinatown and went one block over and then two blocks over. I felt like I traveled thousands of miles and I don't know if you've had this experience. And I was like, what? This was literally just behind the building that I had gone in a thousand times. It was right there, and it was so easy to have actually completely different experience one block away.
Juliana: If you're willing to just step out of that main drag, what you find is just a world of difference.
Christine: And I got lost in Thailand once as well in Bangkok, and I am very sure we were probably in the neighborhood we shouldn't have been in, but the experience we had for that couple of hours, getting ourselves reoriented and back out of there was my favorite one in that town. And so I think getting lost in a place is one of the best ways to discover. And I think we often as travelers get really programmed to follow the map and follow the guide and stay on the path. But I think again, literally getting off the butan path is where all of it
Juliana: Always, I find it, it's funny because I'm actually my best friend and I are going to go to, it's her birthday coming up and she has never been to Spain and Portugal, and so I am like, sure, I'll go again. But I had an experiment for her where I said, just put on Facebook and ask people what to do in these places and Lisbon in particular, because I know it quite well, and she's like, what will we do? And I'm like, I don't know, just walk around. It's fun. But she's like, why can't you tell me what to do? I'm like, because I don't know. It's just like for me, these places are a vibe and it's so much more fun to just walk up and down streets than to have this, okay, first we hit this museum, then we go here, then we walk in this touristy place.
And it's funny, a lot of the things that came in were clearly stuff that other people had read on TripAdvisor or in a trip book, and then they went and then they shared with her, oh, you've got to go there. Which is why I tell people, do not take, there's a way to use TripAdvisor and it's not the way you think it is. And so I mentioned to her yesterday, I'm like, I just want to say everyone's like, just stay on these paths, but I promise you we're just going to go there without an agenda and you're going to love it so much more. Just you really have to be willing to let go of the idea that you need to go to the market that was built for tourists to come to and you'll be okay. You'll have amazing experiences.
Christine: Yeah, I think it's fun to go get a cup of coffee and then maybe find out where a library is or kind of replicate what you would do if you lived there and just kind of see where that takes you. I think it's just such a different way of experiencing. I did want to go back and touch on connecting with women in places where you travel because this is something I also do when I travel and also within my company. And I think part of why I love that so much is because I feel like women are kind of the story holders. If we go back to the storytelling, they're the ones who kind of curate life and community and culture and connections. And so when we tap into that, when we travel, we kind of get to peek behind the curtain, which is also here we are with a Wizard of Oz reference. But what about it for you? Why do you feel like that's so important for you when you travel?
Juliana: Yeah, I mean, it's funny because I'm just taking it in for a minute and it just really feels, it's so broad to say. It feels like everything, but it really does. I feel as a woman traveling and so far on every tour I've ever done, I've never excluded men, but women are always the ones, they've been a hundred percent women. Women. Statistically the traveler at this point of the game is a woman in her fifties. And a lot of men don't want to travel. I mean, I've been doing a lot of research developing a new travel show, but it's fascinating because it bears out everything that I see anecdotally on my tours. And when it's all women, there's almost like this exhale where everyone can relax first in the company of women because there's a common language we don't even have to speak. And then we get to experience, we go to another culture and we meet women that are come in, let me share these things with you.
And the immediate exchange, there's such a, I think women naturally also have a humility, and I mean this in the best possible way, where we want to learn, we want to share. We don't really feel the need to tell everyone how it is. So we're like, please tell us your story. How do you make this bread? Or what's this art that you're keeping alive? And so we love with the exchange, we love learning and understanding, and there's something so gratifying and just there's something that feels so good about being in another culture and knowing that the money that you're spending, because for my tours, quite a lot of it is just person to person. I'm not contracting through any middle management or anything. I'm going to a woman's house, she's cooking us lunch and I'm handing her money. And so she is being a provider, she's actually able to additionally not have to have a side hustle, but to focus on, I want to continue to make cheese the way it was made a hundred years ago in this village. And so she's preserving a culture, preserving a tradition, and all of these things, it just makes for a really rich experience, a really connected experience. It's very cultural. Yeah, I don't know if I answered it. I feel like there's so things that come into it, it's just such a comfortable, safe feeling. I know women are often rightfully so concerned about their safety abroad and just traveling with women. It's such a community. It's just such a fun experience.
Christine: Yeah, I agree. I mean, I feel like I've witnessed all of those things and it is a treasure. So again, it's one of those things I set out to replicate because I thought, what if every woman I know could have this experience? They just would feel so differently about the world and themselves and possibilities. And I think, like you said, there's some things that women relate to across cultures in such a way that I wouldn't want to project that men couldn't do that. But I think maybe the roles are so different maybe in different cultures, but there's something about when you said making bread that's going to be the same everywhere, and that does often tend to be a woman's role. So this is something that just allows connection in a way that is very just almost primal and instinctive, and so it feels very safe. And then also if you aren't someone who makes bread all the time in your daily life, you are learning something and you're understanding the culture and what it is like to be a woman in that space. And I just think we're maybe really curious about that. I have always wanted to understand the roles of women in different countries and their life's experiences, and it's a way that I can understand that story
Juliana: And it's in no way to exclude men. And there is, for us at my company, we first are there women, can we support women in other cultures? Second is always families, is it a husband and wife? And third is locals. So it's always about finding people in these cultures. And we've had some amazing experiences with men and we know Potter in Slovenia that we had one of the best times ever, this wonderful man. And so we do have these great experiences, but I do really want to ensure at all times, and this is again from that sustainable standpoint, that we are supporting women-owned businesses because quite often, even in their own cultures, they may face difficulties getting startup money or getting supplies or resources. And anytime that we can help women support themselves or support their family, that creates autonomy, that creates true sustainability in a community. So it's always my first choice, but by no means is it anti-men at all.
Christine: Yeah. Yeah. I love that you mentioned both those points. And I did want to bring in too, you had mentioned sustainability just as a quick touch point before, and that this is a huge way if people are curious about how they can have a more sustainable impact when they travel. I mean easiest way, because if you look at the sustainable development goals, almost every single one of them, if you're looking at gender equity and supporting women, you are touching upon those goals. They intersect across the board. And I think people are, I'm hoping, are starting to really understand that at this point we're having more and more conversations about how sustainable travel and gender equity intersect. But I love that you mentioned that because it does have such a huge impact because of the way women invest in families and community and that money going to them does create such a dramatic shift. Well, I wanted to also talk a little bit with you about some of your favorite destinations and why they really speak to you. So I know you mentioned Georgia and Slovenia. What do you think about those places really light you up and get you excited to travel there?
Juliana: For Georgia, for instance, it started with food, which usually does for me and probably for a lot of people I know I'm not the only one who travels, travels for food, but it absolutely started with that. I also really for a multitude of reasons, including just the way I grew up and just connecting with what I see or feel like the underdog, the more you travel, and I've traveled all over the world and somehow I've kind of niched down into Europe, but more central Europe, you really start to understand the dynamics of the continent and how different countries feel about other countries. But these smaller countries, I have such a passion and a soft spot for countries that are a little bit of the underdog just to begin with. But then once you start really spending time and making friends, getting to know even the different regions in a country, and you realize that the resilience of countries that unfortunately have been under the thumb of much larger empires, getting their autonomy, getting their freedom, getting their taste of democracy and working it out.
I know that's not like, let's put that on the marketing brochure, but that's where it starts for me. And then I'm like, I need to just understand more when I go to Southern Czech Republic and you learn about how the wine makers learned after the 1989 and the wall fell that they could make wine differently than they were being forced to the people's wine and it was cheap and fast and whatever. And just the watching communities, cultures flourish when they have their own autonomy and just like, I can do it way now and I'm going back to the way it used to be done, and then the roots of their traditions that go back so much further than any kind of current government and just it's like it's quirkier. It's more authentic. They haven't got that shellacked slick veneer of we know how to do tourists and all these fake souvenirs that aren't even made in the country.
It's just everything is so from the heart, everything is really done with love, done with the tradition and passion. And so the experience of traveling there for me for Georgia with their love of food and song and wine, it's always so joyful. And then for Slovenia, you get there and it's this country of 2 million people, but it is pristine and nobody thinks about it. I've heard just lately on two different TV shows, they kind of mention it and they have no clue what's going on with it. And I'm like, oh my gosh. It's like Austria and Italy all rolled into one. It's like these places that they're right in front of you, they're right there, and the people are slovenians are fun. They really understand American sense of humor more than most European cultures I've been to. The food is outstanding. The air is pharmaceutical grade oxygen, the rivers are turquoise, they're mountains, the Alps are, it's all this natural beauty. All these people with that are just so excited to visit. And so these things just draw me in and then I'm like, what else is there? And then I just keep going through the Balkans and through former Soviet countries. I am never disappointed. It's always so much more than I expected. And that's why I'm so excited to tell people, yes, France is wonderful. Come over here.
Christine: Yeah. Oh gosh, I'm just kind of trying to witness my own travel behaviors through some of the stories that you were telling. And kind of going back again to the person I was as this child growing up in Montana, in these rural community that I grew up in. And I was like, oh, I see. I also kind of seek that out one because maybe it feels more familiar, but two, it is that kind of welcoming. And as you said, shell select, I was like, oh my gosh, I know exactly what she's saying because anytime I'm somewhere that feels shell select, I am very uncomfortable. And I know that that would be a place other people really feel comfortable. I had just gone to Europe for the first time this year. I've only ever traveled other places, interestingly, and Slovenia was one of the countries I went to, and I was like, oh my gosh, this is so incredible.
One, all of the things you mentioned about food and nature and people and everything, but it also really felt similar to home to me, but so far away and kind of turned up a notch. Even though Montana is epic, it's so interesting maybe how people travel where they perceive they will feel most comfortable. And so for some people, that is going to be a city or a really cosmopolitan destination. And I think I just really never yearned to go to Dennis or Paris, but I yearned to go to Thailand and to these remote destinations. And Papua New Guinea is one that I've never been, but that was where my soul says, you will find something here. And I think we have a similar message, but I want to talk to someone who's like, this is where I yearned to go and understand what that calling is.
Juliana: And I think for anyone who, I think everybody has it, or it's almost like, and again, I have no idea. I don't know what I believe truthfully, but as a child, all I ever wanted to do was go to Russia. I knew I must get to Russia. And in the span of my lifetime, I've lived there twice. So it's like you don't know what place, why does it call you? And then you go there and then now you're called for something else. It's like, and I think you and I were talking a little bit about not the idea of centering yourself as a traveler, and I think that has a large connection to that voyeuristic experience. And I think for so long we didn't know how else to travel there. Maybe there's a language barrier or there's just a cultural barrier and big shout out to local guides.
I don't think they get enough credit because these are people that in their own hometowns cities, they have this desire to welcome people and try to, and break it down and go, okay, so here's why we eat croissants and chocolate in the morning, and then here's what, but just this, I really believe they don't get enough credit. And if you don't go on a big tour, I implore you to hire a local guide. There's many ways to vet them online. We're very lucky that way. But this idea of, again, not just maybe in our parents' time, it was like just get on the bus and just look at everyone and oh, there it is. And instead, if you're called to a place or allow yourself to be called somewhere that is beyond the Eiffel Tower in Venice, and again, I've been there, they're amazing. I understand why you want to go, but allow yourself to be intrigued or curious about some of these other places because you get there, maybe you meet that emissary, that local guide, and you're drawn in and you experience it from the inside. You're part of the production you become, the travel isn't about what you can get out of it per se. It's about how you can contribute to being in that area. And ultimately what happens is you get 10 times more out of it.
Christine: Oh, it's so good. I kind of want to hit pause and go back and just listen to everything so far. I feel like when I reflect, there's so many good things in this conversation, but I agree. And I also just really, there's something to this idea of asking yourself where you feel called to travel to and without question, just saying yes. And so many of the people that I have interviewed on this podcast, really that was the beginning of whatever, got them on this podcast with me was this. I had this incredible urge to go to Nepal and hike this trail. I had this incredible urge to seek out this cooking class in Chile, and it's this thing that they always feel a little bit crazy answering. It's like the thing that the universe planted for them to discover. And I think so many of us feel like we maybe should dismiss whatever that is because it feels like grandiose or out of reality. And I think I do feel like so many of us do have that thing just waiting there asking for our attention and encouraging us to become the next version of ourselves that travel wants to create for
Juliana: Us. And also, there's always been a lot of talk of being this traveler and the privilege, and it is an immense privilege to be able to do it, but it's also an immense privilege to be able to meet people around the world. And so shifting that thinking about the idea that when you travel, you're called, it's not not a selfish act, truly you're being called to meet your fellow humans. You're being called to a culture to what can you learn? What can we learn from each other? How can we know someone who really we're more alike than we are different? And stop othering people. Only good can come from learning and meeting people all over the world. So I mean, I think this calling of travel is not because you want to be privileged and say you've been there, but it's about really making the world smaller and spreading more joy and love around the world.
Christine: And I feel like those moments, like you said, when you witness someone else's story and you just can't believe it, I mean, you're just standing there and you can't believe that they shared this with you or that you were privileged enough to get to see this thing and understand and hear the story or hear the pride in the understanding of this component of their life's history. And yeah, I agree. It's such incredible thing to get out there and hear and see. And
Juliana: When you say that, it reminds me of a moment that we had on my tour to Georgia in June of last year, and it was a bumpy road. First we had the pandemic and then we have this war. And so even just making my guests feel at ease to go to Poland, go to Georgia while Russia is attacking Ukraine, and Georgia's been in that position before in 2007 when Russia was like, well, we're going to take some of this land from you. And what was amazing in this moment, we had a closing night dinner at this restaurant, this wonderful man, Lars, he has this restaurant in Tbilisi. And what I loved was he also had, they have a tradition of this polyphonic singing, which is many people singing at once. And he had it's traditionally men, but he had a group of women in there and their voices, it was like transcendent.
It was everybody was near tears. I cried actually. It was the beauty of it. And then he shared something that they drink wine out of that he was sharing with my guests. And then he turned to us and he said, thank you. Because sometimes as Georgians, they have a worry that Russia will come and try to take their culture, take their land. And he said, who will tell our story? And I want you to go back to where you're from and please spread our message of love and joy, and please tell our story and let people know that we are worth fighting for. And you realize in that moment, and I wrote it down in the moment, and I'm like, oh my God, my God. And I've posted it on Instagram. If you scroll back, you'll see it. And that just hit me. It hit me so hard because you realize that a culture can function without any outside presence, any outside force.
But as we all become accessible to one another and we have struggles against oppressors or whatever's happening for a culture to be like, please come. Please get to know us. Please don't be scared of us. Please know that we have music and food and song, and we have something worth saving and we need you to help tell people. I mean, it's like you realize it's not a vanity or a selfish endeavor, but just a connection of humanity and empathy and compassion and something that we almost are duty bound to do in some way, if that makes sense. I don't know. Does that make sense?
Christine: Yeah, absolutely. And my heart is just also reflecting on so many moments, and I don't want to go through all of them, but I definitely have had those moments where you feel like that. And I think that is what I think is so important is because you are the person, then when you go back and do share that story, that's the context other people have for that country now. And especially if it's someone close to you, your experience in your perception is going to be the one that means the most to them. So even if they do hear something on the news or something, they'll be like, but Juliana had this experience. I mean, I really resonate with that. And that humanity of that experience is going to mean something. And I think that is really important as travelers to become ambassadors of the places that we've been and fallen in love with, especially places that have notoriously had misconceptions within government and politics and media and all of that. I think it is our job to be the ambassadors of those places and tell their story as best as we can.
Juliana: And even in Poland last year, a lot of my guests were like, we should probably cancel. And I spent a lot of time with my Polish guide and we went over it, and she's like, it's safe, I promise you. And then to get to go there and have the experiences we did and then to share them where we're all singing, we're having a cookout and we're singing and we're meeting these guys who had a big Uck sort of taking us back to Posen. And everyone's just singing and we're meeting all these locals that are just like, hi. And it's funny because my mom's friend's like, don't go to Poland. You're going to get bombed. And it's dark and gray there all the time, and everyone's sad. And then you see all this joy and light. And so I often say to my guests, I hope that you feel like you're a steward of this culture when you go back and tell people, no, it's safe to go here.
No, it's joyful to go here. It drives me insane when people are like, ah, Poland, it's so sad. And I'm like, no, as a Polish person, and my family did leave Poland. I get it. But yeah, I'm like, no. I think that's why it's so important. It's just the tourism dollars to these smaller countries really matter, really matter. They depend on it. And so especially for a country like Georgia, when tourists don't come, the only tourists they get then are Russians. And then that is an imbalance that is untenable for them. They need the influence of the rest of the world coming in. And so anytime you travel wherever you go, I'm not saying just if you didn't have a good experience, I'm not saying to be untruthful, but I really would also encourage you to share those moments and say, this might've been a misconception, but look how wonderful it is here. And I think that's hugely helpful to smaller countries that truly depend on tourism dollars
Christine: And as writers and bloggers and content creators too, I think it is really important to get into these places and tell these stories. Well, I have loved this conversation so much. I have two more things before we wrap up. One, I feel as though I could not have mentioned that you're a goat fanatic and not address that because I can't leave people hanging. And two, we have some rapid fire questions at the end of the conversation, so I have to understand. So you go into your website and it's guides, which is again normal. And the very first guide is goats. So I know why
Juliana: I know, and I joke that among a lot of people who have followed me for a long time, they kind of call me the mother of goats and they make little memes with me and goats, and why do I love goats? Because they make their own fun and they don't care what other people think and they'll eat anything.
Christine: Oh my goodness, that's so perfect. But I imagine too that this allows you to have some really interesting experiences when you travel, if you are kind of seeking out, it's not something everybody's seeking out. So if you ask a question of Where can I seek goats? Here, you're
Juliana: Take me to your goats. Yes. Which it's funny, half the time I say that half the time they already know I'm coming and they're like, we got to find goats for her. And there's a wonderful, wonderful woman, Nancy Donnelly, who works in the area of Canada, like Montreal, Quebec, she's got this region, and she knew she kind of was typical things for bloggers who might come and she's like, oh, it's Juliana. We got to find goats for her. And I just love her so much, and I will never forget that she took me to this space, which is another thing. I really, for a long time I wanted to do a series on this space, and it should be coming with the name, but it's been a while, so it's faded, but it's a consortium of people who preserve the culture of this northern region that kind of comprises like Northern Canada and Newfoundland and even Iceland and Ireland, and it's all the arts and crafts.
And so she took me to this family's home and they had angora goats, and not only did they have all of these goats, but they would make all these beautiful yarns, and so people would come from around the region to buy yarn from them. And then the woman that we met with started designing clothes. So all of this small thing enabled her, which is exactly what I'm always talking about, but it enabled her to be creative and to do all of these arts. And I got to hold a six hour baby goat. Oh my God, I just melted into a puddle. But the experiences I've had all over the world, everywhere you get to the strangest places, maybe it's a goat farm, maybe it's a place where you get to taste artisan cheeses, you get to see a family that's maybe making their own rocky, just the things that you get to experience just by saying, take me to your goats. It's a wonderful, wonderful, I suggest try it, see what you get. If you like goats, you'll have some wonderful experiences.
Christine: Yeah, I feel like I'm getting ready to travel with my daughters for a year, and I feel like I will give that line to my youngest daughter because between her cuteness and that question, I feel like we can't go wrong with what you won't might happen. Well, before we get to the Rapid fire, Juliana, where can people find you to find more information about the trips that you're offering as well as just the resources on your blog?
Juliana: It's across the board. Clever Dev, wherever, so clever dev, wherever, dot com, clever dev, wherever on Instagram and clever dev, wherever on Facebook, join me. I am going to be leaving. I'm kind of gone all summer, so if you want to dig into some of these places, even some of 'em are maybe a little popular, but maybe you'll see the off beaten path side. And then I'm taking a road trip through Central Europe and Slovakia and Moravian and places you don't get to see too often. So come join me. I'll share some of that fun stuff with you.
Christine: Yeah, thank you so much. Okay, so Rapid Fire, rapid Fire ish questions. The first is, what are you reading right now?
Juliana: Oh, I am reading. I always have five books at one time, and so I'm actually reading a book called Smart Women Finish Rich, which normally it's all about the Balkans or this or that, but I realized I probably should start saving more money, so that's what I'm reading. It's not very travely, but it's what I had this cracked open this morning. So
Christine: Yeah, no, that's good. I think it's good to read a diverse amount of things. I also often have four or five books going as well.
Juliana: Always.
Christine: What is always in your suitcase or backpack when you travel?
Juliana: Several things. I never travel without a speaker, like a little Bose mini speaker because it always enables a sing-along a dance party or just brown noise if you need to drown out the loudness outside of your lodging. So always that, always a lightweight hoodie, even if it's super hot because places get air conditioned, always flip flops. If your feet are cold, you can wear 'em around your room with socks, but you'll probably wind up at the pool. So at least those three things never, ever, ever travel without
Christine: To sojourn is to travel somewhere as if you live there for a short while. Where is a place that you would still love to sojourn?
Juliana: I keep trying to get to Estonia. I've bought plane tickets. I've tried to get there so many times. I really need to get to Estonia.
Christine: Well, it's been waiting, I'm sure for the just perfect moment.
Juliana: I think maybe it was like not yet.
Christine: Yeah. What do you eat that immediately connects you to a place you've been?
Juliana: I mean, when I'm back at home?
Christine: Yeah.
Juliana: Ooh. I was so excited for a little while, and I haven't checked lately, but Trader Joe's was making Kune Fe, and if you've been to the Middle East, you'll know Kune Fe is kind of like this wonderful white farmer's cheese wrapped in philo strands, and then it's cooked in an open fire so that it gets crunchy and melty at the same time, and then they kind of pour like a honey water on the top and crush pistachios. And then I'm immediately back in Jordan, which is the first country I ever had it in, but I love Cannae. It's so good.
Christine: Oh my gosh, that sounds incredible. It's
Juliana: So good.
Christine: Who was a person that inspired or encouraged you to set out and explore the world?
Juliana: I had a boss when I finally landed in the right place that I was supposed to be when I used to work for T W a, which was an airline that's no longer with us by the name of Beth Berg. And I love her so much. I think she was the first person who really believed in me as a traveler and as an actor actually. And I don't know if I was her best employee, I was going to my job, but she just saw, she's like, you need to leave here and go be an actor and go travel the world. And I think before her, I didn't realize that that was something that a girl from Missouri could go do though that was for people who were more hooked up, special, rich, whatever. I was just a lower middle class kid from Missouri, and I still see her. I still see her, and I'm very lucky for that relationship.
Christine: The people that tell us yes are the most important people.
Juliana: Yeah. That's who you need to surround yourself with, not the people in your family who are like, don't do that. Don't just stay small.
Christine: Yeah. Oh, that could be a whole part two of our conversation.
Juliana: Yes. Right.
Christine: If you could take an adventure with one person, fictional or real alive or past, who would it be?
Juliana: Oh, wow. Fictional real. Wow. I think I probably would have to go with Rose Dewitt Baat from Titanic. I have a Titanic problem. I really do. And I know she wasn't really on it, but I often, I loved how that person was portrayed in 1912 to be bucking everything that was expected of her from the rich, her mom from society, that she would actually try to kill herself on the Titanic by jumping off of it when all she had to do was wait two days, but just her openness to life and adventure and people from everywhere. And oftentimes when I get really down on myself or think that I've achieved nothing with my life, and then I'll close my eyes and I will see that scene, if you remember at the end when the camera pans over the pictures that she travels with and you see that she's ridden horseback and she's done all these things. And then I try to see the pictures of my life, and I feel like, yeah, as women, we don't have to get married and have kids and do all the things that society told us we had to do. We can just have, be open to life and have an adventure.
Christine: So good. Again, the last question is, soul of Travel is a space for honoring women in the industry. Is there one woman you admire and would like to recognize in this space?
Juliana: Yeah. I don't know. You may know Jessica Blotter. I don't know if you're familiar with her. I'm an ambassador for Kind Traveler, but the reason that I just am an ambassador and why I believe in everything that she does is that, I mean, really she wears her heart on her sleeve as soon as you meet her and she's created kind traveler, and it's a beautiful thing where you can book hotels at a discount and then also you make a donation, and that's what enables you to have a much lower price on your hotel room, and then you're also helping the local community. So it's just again, that idea that as women, we can go into a space and instead of just taking, we can give. And I love her for that. And I encourage everyone to, if you're booking on your own, go to kind Traveler first and see if maybe that they're working with a hotel in that area and book your hotel through them over another booking platform actually giving back.
Christine: Yeah. Thank you so much for bringing her name into this space. She has been on the podcast, I think last time I looked. She's still my number one most downloaded episode, but I fantastic her and the work that she is doing as well. So thank you for recognizing her, and thank you so much for this conversation. It was so fun. I really,
Juliana: Really did
Christine: Sharing this and sharing it with my listeners.
Juliana: Listeners. Yeah, it was so great to talk to you and oh, for your listeners, I almost forgot. I did put all of my checklists and what to pack for two weeks and a carry on what to pack for winter, what to put in your wellness kit, how to make a travel budget, how to have a countdown for a long trip. I've put all of those things that I've used and created over the last 20 years of travel into a totally free checklist bundle. And so if you're interested in that, you'll have the link for people to be able to get it. But it is, I think, link clever dever travel slash checklist bundle. But if you want to avail yourself of my decades of mistakes and experiences, I'm so happy to share that with you as well.
Christine: Thank you. Thank you. I had that on my list to talk to you about, but I was too enraptured with the story, so I
Juliana: Know we can just tell stories for hours. Have fun with it,
Christine: At least for us. Thank you. Yes, and I'll share that. And yeah, thank you so much. I appreciate it.
Juliana: Thank you for having me on.
You can find me on Facebook at Lotus Sojourns on Facebook, or join the Lotus Sojourns Collective, our FB community, or follow me on Instagram either @lotussojourns or @souloftravelpodcast. Stay up to date by joining the Lotus Sojourns mailing list. I look forward to getting to know you and hopefully hearing your story.