Episode 88- Marinel de Jesus, Brown Gal Trekker
It is important to stay aware of the many diverse communities that make up our local, national, and global environments. This is increasingly becoming more important as travel is being enjoyed around the world by increasing numbers of people.
Diversity, equity, inclusion and women are important aspects for travel and tourism industry leaders to consider if we want our industry talent pool to continue to innovate and grow.
Travel is not just about visiting new places. It's also about creating a world in which we all can live and thrive. That's why the travel industry needs to be more inclusive.
Chrsitine’s guest today travels the globe because she wants to continue to educate herself and be open to new cultures. She wants to continue challenging systems of oppression and spread the stories of people who are working for social justice.
She’s been apart of amazing projects, social changes beginning to happen, women creating powerful movements in their communities and she strives to have better conversations that move us forward on racial equity, gender equity, equal access for people with disabilities, fair wages and empowering people from historically marginalized communities to be able to independently travel in safety.
Marinel M. de Jesus, Esq. is a former civil rights lawyer from Washington, DC who turned her passion for hiking into a full-time endeavor as a social entrepreneur, solutions-focused journalist, and speaker. She is the founder of the award-winning media platform, Brown Gal Trekker, and mountain trekking enterprise, Equity Global Treks, both of which aim to elevate the status and roles of women and indigenous communities in the outdoor and travel industries.
Marinel is a full-time global mountain nomad and travels to mountain destinations regularly to explore tourism initiatives that are community-led and/or focus on female leadership in the tourism industry.
In 2019, she founded the non-profit human rights organization, The Porter Voice Collective, which aims to advocate for the human rights of porters in Peru, Nepal, and Tanzania and Workforce Equity Tourism as a form of sustainable tourism through the use of storytelling and all forms of media.
Marinel has written for various outdoor & travel publications such as the Alpinist Magazine, Outside, Fodor’s, Backpacker Magazine, Huffpost, and Adventure Journal. She is a Board member of the American Hiking Society and an advocate for diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) in the travel and outdoor industries.
In this conversation, Marinel and Christine speak about her journey from civil rights attorney to Global Mountain Nomad, her unexpected stay in Mongolia for 294 days during the pandemic, and the documentary that came out of that experience and the importance of workforce equity in the tourism industry. Christine and Marinel also discuss how The Porter Voice Collective is working towards that goal. She is such a passionate and inspiring person with so much knowledge to share.
Join Christine for her soulful conversation with Marinel de Jesus.
In this episode, Christine and Marinel discuss:
How travel found Marinel and her passion for human rights
Marinel’s journey from civil rights attorney to Global Mountain Nomad
Why she started Brown Gal Trekker & The Porter Voice Collective
The difference between community lead tourism and community based tourism and which one is more inclusive
Marinel’s unexpected stay in Mongolia for 294 days during the pandemic
The documentary that came out of her Mongolia experience
The importance of workforce equity in the tourism industry
Resources & Links Mentioned in the Episode
For more information about Marinel and Brown Gal Trekker, visit https://www.browngaltrekker.com/
Follow Marinel and Brown Gal Trekker on your favorite social platform Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter
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We’ll explore the wilderness by snowshoe and dog sled, connect with members of the local community to learn about living in this remote environment, enjoy daily yoga practice and vegan meals all while keeping our eye out for the beautiful northern lights that like to show off their magic this time of year.
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About the Soul Of Travel Podcast
Soul of Travel honors the passion and dedication of the people making a positive impact in tourism. In each episode, you’ll hear the story of women who are industry professionals and seasoned travelers and community leaders who know travel is more than a vacation. It is an opportunity for personal awareness and it is a vehicle for change. We are thought leaders, action takers, and heart-centered change makers.
The guests work in all sectors of the tourism industry. You'll hear from adventure-based community organizations, social impact businesses, travel photographers and videographers, tourism boards and destination marketing organizations, and transformational travel experts. They all honor the idea that travel is more than a vacation and focus on sustainable travel, eco-travel, community-based tourism, and intentional travel.
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If you want to learn about new destinations, types of travel, or how to be more intentional or live life on purpose, join Christine Winebrenner Irick for soulful conversations with her community of fellow travelers exploring the heart, the mind, and the globe. These conversations highlight what tourism really means for the world.
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Credits. Christine Winebrenner Irick (Host, creator, editor.) Marinel de Jesus (Guest). Original music by Clark Adams. Editing and production by Rayna Booth.
Transcript
KEYWORDS
porters, community, people, industry, women, conversation, travel, Mongolia, create, tourism, talk, equity, Peru, led, guides, operator, tourism industry, pandemic, mountain, voice
Christine Winebrenner Irick 00:08
Thank you for joining me for soulful conversations with my community of fellow travelers, exploring the heart, the mind and the globe. These conversations highlight what travel really means for the world. Soul of Travel honors the passion and dedication of the people making a positive impact in tourism. Each week, I'll be speaking to women who are tourism professionals, world travelers and leaders in their communities will explore how travel has changed them and how that has rippled out and inspired them to change the world. These conversations are as much about travel as they are about passion, and living life with purpose, chasing dreams, building businesses, and having the desire to make the world a better place. This is a community of people who no travel is more than a vacation. It is an opportunity for personal awareness, and it is a vehicle for change. We are thought leaders, action takers, and heart centered change makers I'm Christine Winebrenner Irick. And this is the Soul of Travel.
Marinel de Jesus is a former civil rights lawyer from Washington DC, who turned her passion for hiking into a full time endeavor as a social entrepreneur, solutions focused journalist and speaker. She is the founder of the award winning media platform Brown Gal Trekker and mountain tracking enterprise equity global tracks, both of which aim to elevate the status and roles of women and indigenous communities in the outdoor and travel industries. Marinel is a full-time Global Mountain Nomad and travels to mountain destinations regularly to explore tourism initiatives that are community-led and or focus on female leadership in the tourism industry.
In 2019, she founded the nonprofit human rights organization, The Porter Voice Collective, which aims to advocate for the human rights of quarters in Peru, Nepal, Tanzania, and workforce equity tourism as a form of sustainable tourism through the use of storytelling, and all forms of media. Marinel has written for various outdoor and travel publications such as alpinist magazine, outside Fodor's backpacker magazine, HuffPost and adventure journal. She is a board member of the American hiking society, and an advocate for diversity, equity and inclusion in the travel and outdoor industries.
In our conversation, Marinel and I speak about her journey from civil rights attorney to global mountain Nomad, her unexpected stay in Mongolia for 294 days during the pandemic, and the documentary that came out of that experience and the importance of workforce equity in the tourism industry, and how The Porter Voice Collective is working towards that goal. She is such a passionate and inspiring person. With so much knowledge to share. I found myself trying to fit so much into this conversation. Join me now for my soulful conversation with Marinel de Jesus. Welcome to Soul of Travel.
I am so excited for this conversation this evening and really grateful to be joined by Marinel de Jesus. And to hear her journey of going from being a civil rights lawyer to a global mountain Nomad, what that means, what that journey looks like, and all of the amazing work that you are doing in the tourism industry. And she's joining us from Mongolia, so I'm also super appreciative of her interrupting the work she's doing there to find Wi Fi and connectivity and join us. So thank you so much for being here tonight.
04:24
Thanks, Christine. I'm really excited to be here.
Christine Winebrenner Irick 04:27
Thank you. Well, to begin our conversation, I would love to just give you the opportunity to introduce yourself, tell our listeners a little bit about who you are in the space of travel right now. And then we'll kind of go back and unpack your journey if you will.
04:46
Yeah, so right now I would say I'm a social entrepreneur. I have a few organizations I founded that started out with Brown Gal Trekker which was a travel media site which used to be just about out hiking and outdoors and traveling. That was his intention in the beginning. But in the end, by now, it has evolved into this idea of advocacy and sort of creating systemic changes in the tourism and outdoor industry. So a lot of the writing I do with Brown Gal Trekker has to do with sort of critiquing the industry so that we can be better at it, you know, trying to be more inclusive and diverse and equitable. And alongside gronckle Turker is what is big expression, or what's big excursion is now known as equity global tracks. I am an avid mountain hiker.
And so I lead a lot of trips all over the world. So equity global tracks is where I do that. And I take people all over the world to track different places, with equity in mind, and inclusion in mind, where we actually create the leadership roles for women and indigenous communities. And the last thing is the positive voice collective, which is a human rights organization I established in 2019. It accompanies my work, because it's specifically focused on the porters who are carrying bags up the mountains and balloon above Tanzania, who have been experiencing long term exploitation and extraction by the industry, which I feel has to change has to because, for example, Patheos is Inca Trail has been going on for for two years, and it's not had any kind of changes in terms of equity for the porters. So, so all of these things, actually, although they sound like they're kind of different, but they're very much the same, same mission. I just want to elevate the voices of indigenous communities, and women and people of color into outdoor and traveled spaces. Yeah,
Christine Winebrenner Irick 06:37
Thank you. I was kind of sharing with you a little bit before we hopped on here. But for our listeners, there's just so many things that you are passionate about that are things that I really want to bring into the conversation in this industry. So I'm really excited to explore those. I remember being on a few of your virtual calls with you over the past couple of years. And every time you have a moment to speak. I'm just like, Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. So I'm just so excited to bring your focus to this conversation and start to get to understand a little bit more about the work that you're doing. Because I do think that it is so important, as you mentioned, especially in this industry, there's been a long standing need for change. And I think it's a really great time to be advocating for people that have been supporting the industry that haven't had the focus on the importance that they are. And I think through the pandemic, as we saw tourism kind of fall apart.
And we saw all the pieces, kind of as they were separated. And we saw the different impacts. I think that really allowed us to see the importance of all of the players, and all of the pieces that make tourism thrive. I know for me, I felt like that was something that was more able to be seen when we were examining the negative impacts of the loss of tourism in countries, especially like Peru, I work in Peru as well. And really seeing the impact on the families and guides and porters and the tourism industry. Like we really could see how deeply they were impacted by the loss. And I think that also allowed us to see how much we need to show up for those people, as the industry rebuilds. So I would love to start with I know that you talk about community led tourism versus community based tourism. And I would really love to talk about what that means to you, how you see the difference, and how you see that that actually changes how we engage in communities when we travel.
08:50
Yes, I've been in spaces where people use the community based CBT tourism a lot. And I, at first I was like, Okay, that sounds fine. You know, basically your project is focused on community or sort of its origin in the community. But I think it's still a vague term, as far as I'm concerned, it could be misinterpreted, because to me, if you say community based tourism, it's almost like you can also make an argument that it perhaps refers to sort of packaging something a product that is community based, you know, it's almost like it you can make an argument that it's a term that commodifies insinuates commodification in my mind and the reason why I say that is because I spent a lot of time with the community that we talk about the casual community, the Mongolians, the Cossack nomadic community, I spent an enormous amount of time getting to know them.
And if we say community based it's problematic in my mind, because it's not clear who's leading where it's the power dynamics, and I believe that if we want to change the system, and we all agreed that there is a Strachan in the tourism industry with indigenous communities, that we have to be upfront with that and transparent, who is holding the power, who is the leader. And that's why I like community led. Because it's clear, right? It's like a community. It's a community product. It's a community base. It's already encapsulated in that term. But it's also on top of it, it's community-led. So I think it's just one level up from the term CBT. And I think if we start saying community lead, at least for consumers, it will be easier to understand who is leading this. And I think it's important to acknowledge who the leaders are, right? Because if we want to dismantle the system, we need to know where the power lies. And if we say community led community led, to me, that's pretty clear.
And you have if that is your product, and if that's what you're standing for, then it's clear to the consumers that that is what your product is about, and they're going to know what to expect. And you are going to be obligated to to if that is what you are saying you're obligated to follow up with that right? If it's committee led, it has to be community led community based, it could be any that's fluid, it could be anything who's leading that we don't even know who's who's who, who's, who's the guy per se. So who made who makes the decisions? Who profits? Right? So, to me, I think the community lead term is very powerful. It's dismantling a lot in terms of our mindset, how the system should work, how we want to do it, how we make that shift, but if we continue to say, CBT, community base, I just don't think that it's transparent. And that's a problem when you want to create systemic changes. Yeah,
Christine Winebrenner Irick 11:43
thank you so much for explaining and clarifying that, I think that is a really important distinction as well. And I do think many of us when we say that we are imply we're meaning to imply that we're engaging with the community and having those conversations, but it also leaves that gray space for people to say they're doing community based tourism without actually doing that engagement at the front end, and really, really actually having community lead tourism and having those discussions. So I love, like you said, from a consumer standpoint, it makes it really easy for them to understand what they're getting. I think that in tourism, we have been genius marketers in creating terms that sound appealing, but aren't very clear as to what they mean. And it allows for a lot of, like movement, like you said a lot of fluidity in, in what is being created and packaged and sold. So I'm realizing that we jumped right in, because I knew I was going to be so excited. But I want to talk a little bit about your journey. And I think that your background really plays an important role in understanding how you see the tourism industry. I know that you started your career as a civil rights attorney, and then you have this shift. Can you walk us through a little bit of that part of your journey and how you decided to make that transition in your life?
13:10
Yes, so initially, it's really just a hobby, hiking, being outdoors, backpacking. It was like an obsession. I did it as much as I could. While I was practicing as a lawyer for 10 years in Washington, DC. And then I ended up being a leader in the community. I ended up leading hikes all over, took them to local national parks and ended up, you know, going national, and then I became international. So by the time I started my company in 2017, I took people to over maybe 2530 countries tracking and that was just a hobby that wasn't a company. And people told me man, I'll do you realize you have another career and I laughed, I'm like, No, I'm a lawyer, my packet stores being a judge. You know, that's how it goes. I was a prosecutor. And to me, it's like how can you even make money or survive with Heike? You know, how do you make that your profession and a job, and I wasn't sure if that was going to be fulfilling.
You know, it's a hobby. It's a passion, but I'm not sure if that could be my full time thing. And in 2017, my mom died. And that was the shift. I knew in my heart. I've always loved hiking. I knew I wasn't really thrilled, you know, with my practice anymore. It was 15 years of doing hardcore human rights, civil rights. lawyering and being a judge is just not something I feel like I'm just gonna get stuck if I do that profession. So at one point, I had this sort of Crossroads because people were trying to ask me if I was interested in judgeship. And so in my mind at that point, I'm like, Okay, two options, judgeship, or I leave my career, but if I leave my career, what would I be? And I knew in my heart what I wanted to do, I just wanted to hike and I wanted to just be global, and live globally as a nomad because I met nomads in the 20 years I've traveled I've met a lot of nomadic people and and I He searched out a lot, but I was wasn't sure if I could ever do it, you know.
And so and so when my mom died, there was clarity. It was a gift that she gave me when she passed. I can't explain it. But when I came back from the funeral from the Philippines and came back to the US, there was not a part of me that wanted to go back to my office. And it was just a matter of time to send a message to my boss saying I'm resigning. And it was by email, though, and I did that before entering Sierra Nevada for a backpacking trip solo and, and I felt good once I hit the trail, like I made the right decision. And from there, at that point, I had my company established maybe a few months, but it wasn't really, you know, I wasn't full time. But so I decided I'm gonna, you know, I'd give this a shot, I want to run my monster trucking company full time now, I'm going to do the tracking, I'm going to go for what I want, which is to hike and run my organization.
And, and that just evolved throughout, where I finally was able to utilize my background as a human rights lawyer, because I realized the industry is flawed. And there's a lot of human rights issues. And so to me, that was something that came later. At first, it was more about, you know, finding my joy, mountain tracking, doing what I love, leaving behind a profession that I really enjoyed and really was meaningful, but then I had to let it go at some point. And but yeah, but so it all kind of just evolved and kind of you know, fell into place. Even in the beginning, even though in the beginning, it was very clear. So yeah, it's the life that I have from a lawyer to a mountain Nomad, that's really the journey.
Christine Winebrenner Irick 16:37
Thank you so much for sharing that I think people's journeys are just so interesting to me to see the pieces. And I think it's also really interesting when things seem like they're really disconnected, but then they always, it's like, you know, life really has this plan for you that like you needed to have this part in this part in this part to get to this part. And then, you know, seeing, you know, learning of your career at this point, it makes so much sense to me to see that you would have been a civil rights attorney because of the work that you're doing now. But I can imagine that in that moment, and in those early stages of thinking about launching your company that it just probably felt like the most like, didn't seem seamless, it seemed like it was a far leap.
But I also think it's important to show examples for women to follow their passion, because I think that is when we can create real impact in the world is when we're doing this thing that really we are deeply fulfilled by in the way that nature and travel can be so fulfilling, but then also find a way to bring in other passions, like philanthropy and advocacy. And, you know, there's so many different ways that travel intersects with different things in our world that I think it's such a great place for people who are multi passionate to land because we can end up doing so much more than we initially think when we think we just want to start a travel company. And then we start to like, get our hands dirty, and we're like, oh, okay, now this really makes sense.
18:16
Yeah, I mean, it definitely, I mean, it didn't make sense. 100% before, but I knew it was a feeling more than a thought to be honest. It's just this drive and intuition saying a voice saying you go for it, don't worry, you go for it, and you just do it. So yeah.
Christine Winebrenner Irick 18:34
Well, I would love to speak like the voice that says Go for it. I'd love to walk to the part in your journey, where you are in Mongolia at the beginning of the pandemic, and you have kind of a split decision to make of Do you stay in Mongolia? Without like, understanding what that means, how long that would be? Or do you leave? Can you take us to, like walk us to that point in your journey and what that decision making process was like, and then we can talk about what that ended up evolving into?
19:10
Yeah, so it was March, February, March 2020 When I entered Mongolia because the reason why I had a I had a tour with women from us where we're gonna go migrate with Kazakh women as our leaders as our tour guides, and I thought it was for a women's history month so I was very excited very first time. It's the first time we're launching the initiative. And so I came earlier before my clients came and I decided I'm going to come there earlier to organize and just you know, plan the tour and lo and behold pandemic to cold Mongolia and the government shutdown everything meaning there were no flights out there where borders were closed.
And I was you know, it was shocking for everyone obviously, because that was the first time we've ever seen that. But I thought okay, I got 90 days to get a visa. So by the time this you know, I have Three months to get out. So I was thinking, it's probably going to open in a few weeks, you know, no big deal. So I wasn't scared at the first you know, first time, you know, of course, the first moment, but then later on, I'm realizing oh, then use is just getting bigger and bigger, you know. And so I'm realizing, oh, boy, you know, I guess this is bigger than I expected and might be a longer stay. So I think by by April, May, when we finished the documentary film, because I ended up doing the tour anyway, by myself with the women nomads, because they really wanted to do it, it was actually a celebration of their culture, from their view to be able to migrate, because they haven't done it in a long time. And I didn't want to let them down and say no, we kind of sold the tour. So I went, I went by myself with the women nomads, which is another experience in and of itself being the only tourists. And so I did a film based on that.
So that preoccupied my time. But when the film was ending in May, I started panicking, like, wow, how long am I going to be here? I need to go back to my apartment. I have my two pets there. No, you know, I have this woman who's supposed to be temporary, is she going to stay longer? So I was a bit afraid. I was like, and I was alone. And that's when after I finished that project, I came to this reality where there's a pandemic, and I'm by myself in a village that I don't really know, well. So there was a moment of panic in me, you know, and then I decided, well, here's the thing, I don't know, when this is going to end, there are no charter flights, I can't get out, you know, it's out of my control. And it's about sort of relearning sort of how to navigate when you're out of control and sort of going with the flow with the universe and what it wants you to do.
So I actually, I turned the panic and more into a productive sort of energy where I decided, if this is the case, I'm just going to count my days here. I actually started counting how many days I've been stuck in Mongolia, because I don't know when I'm going to leave just kind of our first just for fun mentally, like, okay, it's day 200. Now, I'm still here, wondering which day I would be playing home. But you know, the funny thing with the county, it almost made me subconsciously, subconsciously realize, if I am going to count the day, I'm going to make the day count. Because I am here for a reason. I don't know why, but I am here, right? I just had this blind faith that if I can't control the situation, if someone else is controlling it, then someone wants me to be here. And so I thought of the day stay 201 What am I doing today, I'm not I'm going to do anything but mobile route, you know, like cry over the fact that I'm stranded. So it actually motivated me to do things to be reflective, to be productive. It doesn't always have to be travel, but maybe go out to the bizarre, you know, and see the local people, just something other than dwell in the fact that I'm stranded.
Because that's what I didn't want to do is to basically be, you know, stuck in my pain or sort of suffering, right. And it worked. I, the days went by, I did so many different things. After the film, I went to different parts of Mongolia and met people. I got invited to the eagle hunting community. And that's how I ended up having that relationship with them. I taught English to the kids at the very end of my journey, and and so on and so forth. And then 294 days later, I flew out. And that was the sort of the internet show what it was there were so many bits and pieces in there that I could talk about, but really, it's a special moment that I know, I will never be able to recreate again, because I'm back in Mongolia now. And honestly, it's not the same. You know, I see tourists again, you know, and it feels good to be back with the community. But it's a different kind of relationship now, right? So I will never be able to get back to 294 days. And because this project came out of that. Now I had an aha moment and realized this is why I was stuck there. It was because there was this project.
Christine Winebrenner Irick 24:03
Hey, it's Christine. Interrupting this episode for just a minute to invite you to join me for my Lotus sojourns women's wilderness and yoga retreat in Alaska in March of 2023. We'll be traveling 63 miles north of the Arctic Circle to stay at an Arctic hive owned by my friend Molly Busbee and her husband Sean. This boutique property nestled in the Brooks Range is way off the beaten path and also off grid will stay in beautiful and cozy cabins built by hand by our hosts practice yoga in their yoga dome, lovingly referred to as the hive with gorgeous views of surrounding nature will explore the wilderness by snowshoe and dog sled. Connect with members of the local community to learn about living in this remote environment. Enjoy daily yoga practice and vegan meals all while keeping our eye out for the beautiful northern lights that like to show off. Magic this time of year. I only have six spaces for this unique adventure and a few are already taken. I'd suggest pausing this episode and hopping over to the lotus sojourns website to book yours today. Please share this experience with anyone you know who would love this restorative adventurer. Want to learn more, you can listen to my soul of travel conversation with Molly Busby, check out episode 67. Now let's hop back to our soulful conversation.
It's so amazing just to kind of, to hear that journey. And so many things, it seems like the documentary in and of itself, talking about that migration and being able to share that and that's really kind of an extension of this. community-led tourism like being able to tell that story in that way, which probably could have never happened if things had gone as planned. So you already have that gift of time, which also I think so many of us we're kind of dancing with during the pandemic. But for you, it's even a different experience, because you're also in a place that is unfamiliar. And like many of us, we don't know when anything's gonna start to look normal, if we can call it that again. But also like, you're just you don't even know when you're going home. And so then to be able to kind of really focus on this power of travel and connection and community, like in action, because you're living it, you're like, what else can I do with it? And then the next thing shows up which you were talking about meeting this community, and beginning to figure out okay, what is this next project with these? Can you remind me of the name of the community that the eagle hunters cause acne? Right? Yeah.
26:59
Because it's because of nomads. Yeah.
Christine Winebrenner Irick 27:02
And so I know you're there again. So can you tell us what has happened? What is this project that you are returning to now?
27:13
So I guess I can give you the backstory. I was invited by the community multiple times. There was an Eagle Huntress, your name is Ahmed deer. She was part of the filming on March 20. And that's how I met her. She was 10 back then. And we know about her Eagle hunting skills. She was one of the very few women who did go hunting. And I think there's about a dozen of them. She's the youngest. And so she actually basically competed in 2020. In September, I came to see her compete and she won the championship, beating 60 adult men. She was the only female and the only minor competing and she beat all the men. And so to me with this thing that just shifted everything in my mind how it what it means in terms of being a woman and the woman empowerment. And I can go on about Domo dear because to me, she was an inspiration. And coming from Peru where I was a target of the film.
Because I am a woman there was a lot of sexism happening because I was the producer of that film against a lot of men. I experience a lot of sexism in Peru. So when I met Madeira, it was a breath of fresh air for me to realize the power of women. And it almost reclaimed my own power because I almost lost it in Peru when I had a death threat before coming to Mongolia. So this is a lot of backstory to the backstory honestly, this has been a journey for me. Mongolia happened for that reason to to kind of reinvigorate who I am as a woman because I really felt defeated at the end in bed when I when I left and finished filming. So I'm here to really be the catalyst for the project that we have. Because at one point after the competition, she told me she wanted to learn English. And I had nothing else going on that when the ball came autumn came and I said, You know what, why don't I teach her some English I have a teaching background. And you know, I'm a lawyer. So English is like something that I always use.
And so I'll be I'll be helpful enough for her to learn a little bit and so, but that someone in the community found out about me, she's Baja, my co founder of because begi English and nomadic culture camp, who's an English teacher in secsign, and a tour guide. So she found me and she said, I heard you want to teach. I'm with you. Do you want to come stay with me? And I'm like, Oh, okay. This is great, because you know, I'm with you because I don't speak English at all. Her family doesn't speak it. And she's speaking English. So I think that would make it easy for me to work with the community. And I did i At first I was reluctant because I wasn't sure what role I would be playing and I didn't want to I'm very conscious of like the invitation from a community and what role I be playing what this is about a relationship, because I know the tourism industry is so extractive and I don't want to be put in that situation. But I decided, Okay, I'm gonna give it a shot. If it doesn't work out, I can always leave. And I did. And that was the best part of Mongolia.
I ended up teaching that to somebody or I got assigned a dozen kids. And so it's more than I bargained for, but it was so worth it because that was the beginning of the custody project. It was my own experience that gave me that created because begi and the reason why I created because Aggies because I thought that was the best way to create human connection with the community is when you actually give back not in like money, terms of money, it wasn't money at all it was, it was exactly what they wanted, giving them what they wanted, which is English language, because in that part of the world, they're isolated from, you know, the English speaking world. And so they, they really need someone who's fluent, who's a native speaker to be to be teaching English so that they can learn because even the English teachers are struggling with English. So it's not that there is language inequality that's happening in the community. And so it's very clear to me what the community wants, from the very beginning, why the value of English language was so high, it's so high that that the kid the parents really would want their kids to go somewhere privately to learn, but they don't have that resource.
And so I spent months teaching English with Baja, in her house and in the school, and eventually I had to leave in November. But that was when we had a lot of tea with Baja. I had a lot of conversations with Baja and overheard dreams and visions for the eagle hunting community. And that was really it. I mean, I wasn't there to plan or Scout a trip. I was there to survive the pandemic, to be honest. I was just like waiting and like, Oh, what am I gonna go home? And but yeah, this is great. I like hanging out with the community. I at least have people with me, you know, it's for my survival.
But Bob has shared her dreams for the eagle hunting community with me over Mongolian meal tea. You know, those were the conversations that I remember cuz Peggy was born. She told me about a museum. She wants a library. She would love to have some camps in her home outside her house where she can teach kids over the summer. She wants more foreigners to come. She told me all you know. Yes. And I'm just sitting there drinking tea. I'm like, okay, like, and then I'm thinking I'm not sure if I should buy things like why is she telling me this? You know, I can't do anything. You know, like, like, I don't know if that's something I would do. I'm a hiker, I do hiking trails and things like that work with the borders. But, but yeah, that was it. I left and then all of a sudden, it's the UN WTO, ITB Berlin social entrepreneurship competition that came in June of 2021. And I read what it was about, and I'm like, Oh, but I do social entrepreneurship. You know, I have a company, I have an idea.
And I thought about the Mongolian idea bots, ideas and dreams. And I said, Wow, this is like almost like too perfect to know what they're looking for what the idea and this, this one by one, it is exactly what this competition is looking for. So I wrote a proposal, thinking if it goes, it goes, if it doesn't, that's okay. You know, I tried. I said `` bah, bah, bah, hey, that's just competition. I'm going to pitch your ideas to this competition, see where it goes. And they went all the way to, to winning the launch track with a competition. So that's when I realized, oh, while we did have something, you know, and it's still kind of surreal, because now we're, it's now here, we're I'm here. Now I came back to the launch because veggy English and nomadic culture camp, which was born out of my pandemic experience in Mongolia two years ago.
Christine Winebrenner Irick 33:43
Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. It's really beautiful to hear and kind of like we were talking before, it's just so interesting how things show up. And we wouldn't have you wouldn't have expected I mean, the 300 days before you went to Mongolia, or you know, before that journey started coming, then having the project coming home, having this thing land in front of you, and being able to help them make those dreams come true. And also, you being someone who is able to really understand sitting with community and listening to the needs and the wishes and the dreams because not everyone would maybe have that ability to do that or just understand the importance of doing that.
Even if it's just holding space for the conversation, in that moment. It wasn't with an intention of bringing that dream forward. But it was really important to witness that conversation. I would love to now kind of talk about you mentioned, just really quickly your work with porters. This is really where I was drawn to you is hearing you talking about The Porter Voice Collective and really talking about workforce equity and We kind of lead this conversation with talking about changes that we have seen that need to be made from a systemic level in the industry. This is something that as I have traveled, both looking at workforce equity and also indigenous rights, and then that also just always, like lays in there with women's rights, like it's all intersected. But um, can you talk about The Porter Voice Collective, what it's how it came about the intention behind it, and kind of the the work that you've been doing within that space?
35:37
Sure. So Porter was glad to have come out of my years of experience tracking and taking people all over the world, and including those inclusive courses that supported tracks that we know in Nepal, but Tanzania, Tanzania has Kilimanjaro, for example. Nepal has the Himalayan trails like Everest base camp and in accordance with Gokyo lakes. And then there's the proof, which is the Inca Trail, right? Everyone goes to the four day classic Inca Trail. And the common thread among these three countries is the fact that the industry relies heavily on Porter's mountain expedition workers, if you're a climber, you know about the Sherpas, like for example, climbing Everest, right?
So it's the same concept, but this is like low altitude, non technical tracking, with the support of the porters carrying your bags up the mountains. So, you know, on the surface, when I first initially initiated this sort of tracking all over the world with Porter's, you think that, Oh, it's a good thing that they're getting jobs, right on the surface, you'd think, Oh, this is good. It's benefiting them. But when I spent a lot of time taking people to these places, the border started talking to me. I don't know why, maybe because I'm brown, you know, like, I look like them in vitro. I think that's part that's one thing that I realized about my identity that it elevated, it actually helps me with my relationships with local people sometimes because they see me as kind of like, you're Brown, you're, you're different, you know, and then they open up, and I will talk to people in Tanzania, the Kilimanjaro reporters, stupid reporters did Nepali reporters. I'm very curious.
I'm an investigator by nature, because I'm a prosecutor. So when they start talking to me, I ask questions, because I don't leave. I just don't like, Yeah, okay. In the conversation, I actually am very curious. And my focus is human rights. So when they start talking about their work, that's when I realized, wow, you know, they're trusting me with the truth with what the deal is because they don't tell everyone about what's going on in the industry, right. But then also, I realized, because now I'm part of the industry. I shifted from a consumer to, to an operator in some way, they also became more open with me, because now we're talking because we're colleagues, we kind of work together, that's when I really find out what's going on. And I live in the places where they live. That's the biggest thing. I'm not just an operator who comes there. Just for five days to do a tour. I live in federal, my neighbors are Quechua. So I that's exactly what I do intentionally as a global mountain Nomad, that aspect of me is very important in my work, because if I live in the US, and I'm doing this work, you I will never know the truth. I will.
There isn't. There's that's not an investment, you got to invest in the community to really know the truth, to really understand what it's about. And that's what I have that's unique with the life that I live. And so because of all that, you know, it became very clear to me what is going on. For 50 years, the Peru porters have been struggling with their rights. And no one has been talking about it, you know, it's going, it's happening on the ground because I see it. I'm part of the community. I know the porter president, the Federation president, he's now my good friend, I'm a godmother to his God, son. So you've forged these relationships, and you really get involved. And so for example, the porter Federation has 8000 Puerto members, all men. So that's a layer of another issue with equity with women, they're not included. And they have been fighting for 50 years. There is a porter law, but it's not, it's not enough, it's not working for them.
There aren't there is no accountability and consequences when people violate the rules. So it's aspirational, not really effective, but just so an idea, but it has to get, we have to improve on the laws, we have to create guidelines, and we have to make people accountable, like really accountable. And that's how companies get away with it. Because there there's a fine, but it's very small, it doesn't really matter. It's just a slap, you know, on the wrist. So, and really, to be honest with you. The saddest part of all this is that we have an industry that has pretty much cultivated a workforce that has no self. They have no self determination, and they have no sense of dignity.
So we created a workforce where I interview them. On this site it made sense to me why when I interview each and every quarter, they always look down on the ground. It's almost like they're ashamed of who they are as a porter. This is the result of a tourism industry that's been exploitative for 50 years. And this is, to me the most heartbreaking thing because you can, you can remedy the salary, right? You can remedy the medical insurance, the lack of it by creating it, but you can never give back a person's dignity when it's lost.
40:30
And that's why I still fight for it. It isn't just a tangible aspect of money or better working conditions, getting better tents, giving them better shoes or bringing rain coats. That dignity is that pride being Quechua. We took that away as an industry. How do you get that back? I think you're going to have to dismantle that for generations to come. 50 years, we've already taken it away. How come we haven't started giving it back. And this is Peru that I'm giving an example to but this applies to Nepali borders. This applies to the Kilimanjaro porters, same demeanor, same mindset, they feel oppressed, and they will always be oppressed. Because what power do they have? Right?
So the industry is the culprit for systemic oppression. And I'm convinced this is pretty much a modern day slavery, I can make an argument for that, based on all the interviews I've done. Yeah. So Porter was collected and was born out of that desire for me. At the very least what I could do is unburden myself with the truths that I know all these years, because to me, it's also torture to be to carrying this with no outlet, right? No, no change for them. And so I felt obligated to start talking. And the border boys Collective is really a microphone to elevate their voices in whatever way I can, whether that's film, article writing, writing articles for magazines, who want to listen to this topic or want to be able to talk about it. Webinars talking with you, as in a podcast, anything that I could do to really just say to the world, we have a problem here, please pay attention, because they've been dealing with this for 50 years or more.
And because they're not going to be able to speak to the world, right? They don't have that microphone, they're not coming on a podcast, they don't even speak English, we have language equity issues yet again, right? There are a lot of barriers. And I feel like, you know, if I've only one person, but maybe one day, there'll be more. And that's really my hope with a porter voice Collective is just to elevate those voices. Yeah,
Christine Winebrenner Irick 42:37
Thank you so much for sharing that. If we are kind of looking at this, from gaining a little bit more understanding, what would you say that travelers are seeing or not seeing in their interactions with porters? Like how can they start to understand whether their porters are treated fairly? Or how can operators who are working with local operators and agencies in these areas? Start to ask the right questions, I guess, because I think a lot of this, like you've said has been hidden in the industry. It's been built into the industry. And people haven't asked questions, because obviously, it's convenient to have cheap labor serving when you're creating a business.
This allows for the economic success of the larger industry. And I think, you know, there, there has to be a way I guess for us to start engaging with quarters, most people aren't going to have conversations like you have, right? I have had the opportunity a few times to witness something. Notice that it doesn't feel comfortable for me it doesn't feel right, I'm noticing that there is inequity and I've had the privilege of of really being able to have some conversations, which is why when I heard you talking about this, I was like, oh my goodness, someone has creating a space for these conversations, because I think it's immeasurably important. So how as travelers, what would we be seeing or not seeing? I mean, I know for me reading a few of the articles that you've written, for instance, like I've had guides, so not porters, but guides, you know, dropped me off at a hotel and then go somewhere else to sleep. And for me, I was like, Wait a second, this doesn't feel right to me.
That's not what that's not how I want to travel. Be like I want this to be a shared experience. And that doesn't feel extractive. But then you look at porters and you can probably speak to this much better than I can but there's definitely a hierarchy within the industry. But what are the other things, we can look for other questions we can ask the conversations we can have, so that we're starting to be the advocates for change, I guess.
45:09
I think, you know, just asking questions will go a long way, basically expressing that you are concerned about workforce equity. The reason why I createdThe Porter Voice Collective is because it's a resource for tourist consumers. Because there's no resource out there, there are a lot of platforms and organizations claiming to support porters. But to what extent are they really interviewing porters and giving them the microphone and having their story told? Not Not a lot? Right? There's not a lot of conversations with the porters directly. So, for example, I think, at the very least, what you can do, that's not going to be too much of a burden when you're tracking is pay attention. Just observe, be an observant, you know, observer, you know, look at where they sleep, for example, what are they eating? You know, what do they look like on the trail? Are they exhausted?
Do they? Do they look like they're having enough breasts right? What are they wearing? Are they proper for the, for the mountain trail, right? If it's raining, do they have rain jackets, make note of even making notes of those things kind of like observing and caring about those conditions on the trail would go a long way. And I would say, once you observe those things, and that doesn't even require talking to porters, it's just observing with your eyes and ears, right, and then go to the operator at the end of the tour and say, you know, what, I'm concerned about what they're wearing.
I'm concerned about the tent, they only had five people in one turn, and 10 is old, and it was raining, you know, I'm concerned about, you know, they seem kind of not too happy about the job, you can pick up on that because people are not happy with their jobs, you can tell you know, if they're proud of their jobs through, you know, you can tell, right, so just just being highly curious and observant of the conditions on the trail without even speaking with them can go a long way. And then tell the operator, you're concerned about this, because because that's how it sort of, you know, it convinced this an operator to look into it, the more people talk about it, and question that practice, the more they're gonna have to look into it, because they're gonna be worried about profits like, well, this might be a problem, I don't want to lose customers, if they're going to think this is a problem, they're not going to recommend me because they shared some concern that I need to fix. Now, if you want to engage in conversations, which could be more difficult, because I have to say it, not all, not all of them, a lot of them don't speak English.
And you're going to rely on a guide to do interpretation. And sometimes the guides do work for the company, their bias, not for the porters necessarily there for their own selves. And they always have to be on the good side of the operator, right? So they're not going to bad mouth the operator, they're not going to show the negative sides, they're going to try to paint it as beautifully as possible. So, you know, because they gotta work, they have to have that job. And so I wouldn't rely on the guides for any kind of observations or sort of recording any information. But if you really want to talk to the porters, and there's no other option, then have the guide, translate, right. But also do it with caution, because you can't always 100% rely on the guidance in terms of interpretation, catch what the Spanish, Spanish to English, whatever.
But, but once in a while you do run into porters who speak a little bit of English. And they're because they're learning to become guides. So if you're able to see someone like that, or meet someone like that, definitely engage in a conversation to find out about how work is like for them, you know, there's a chance they may not tell you exactly what what the truth is because they don't know you and you're a tourist and you're buying the product, but at the very least, you know, maybe you'll find something or at least you know, you'll you'll learn something that might be helpful, but it's worth a shot. But I think the best thing you can really do as a tourist is to do the observations themselves, because you can't really contradict. You know, for me as a lawyer, if you observe something that's direct evidence, if you see how they're sleeping and what they're wearing, those are undisputed facts, and they're undisputed evidence, right? Because it's based on your personal observation.
Words are always very, you know, that's not something reliable at all, like statements made by porters or guides, right? So any especially operators, so, so observing and questioning, even when you're buying a product from the gecko, you can always ask them, hey, I really would like to know more about how you treat Porter's Can you tell me what what are they paid? You know, did they get medical insurance? How much are they eating on the trail? What are they eating? You know, what are the perks? Are you giving them any kind of support when someone gets sick? And all this actually is on the board voice that collects the questions, the different topics you can engage in with the operator, and we give you a guideline on what to say or what to ask.
But having conversation about workforce equity and using the term workforce equity is good because you No, it's not just you're like curious about the poorest, you're interested in systemic change, and it's called Workforce equity. Right. And that's why Porter was Collective is adamant about using that if we're going to use ethical travel, if we're going to talk about sustainability. Well, let's talk about workforce equity, because you know, that's part of sustainability. So conversations engaging in it, because it's gonna start changing the mindset of the operator thinking, there's something going on here. There's some momentum towards workforce equity, I got to look into it.
Christine Winebrenner Irick 50:30
Yes, yeah. Yeah. Well, there's so many other things that I want to talk about. But we have kind of a little bit unpacked how this intersects with indigenous rights and women's rights. Can we just kind of look at that a little bit? And again, I think you mentioned that asking questions is the most important thing we can do. So like, how we can just kind of for people who are listening, maybe light that spark that says, Okay, how what else can I look at when I am really seeking more responsible and equitable travel experiences, what else they can pay attention to?
Because I know, for instance, you mentioned that there's often language and equity and that the porters are speaking Quechua. And then that culture for me. I'm so excited when I see that, right, because that's actually what I want to learn about. That's, for me, those porters and these local community members that we have the privilege of connecting with when we travel, this is why we should be traveling in my opinion, this is who we should be learning from, these are the voices we should be celebrating. And I have had the hardest time trying to understand through my life of traveling.
Like I I'm always trying to understand why indigenous voices aren't the ones that we're celebrating, and that we're seeking out connection with and engaging with, because that's who's going to tell the story of the place that we're in. I don't. I would love to hear your, I guess, advice for how we can also become an advocate for those voices. And I think that really also brings in elevating the voices of women in communities that are also not being heard. Like a double A double repress voice.
52:27
Yeah. So within the, for example, within the porter issues that I mentioned, you know, in general, we talk about workforce equity issues with porters in general. within that frame, there is a problem with gender equity. And what I mean by that is even within the Porta community, women are not being a college as part of the industry, and they are getting backlash. They're stigmatized, they have barriers to have the glass ceiling. To be a female Porter is hard right now, in all three regions, because men still have this idea that culturally, you're supposed to stay home as a woman, they have the argument about religion, for example, that by religion, based on religion, you're not supposed to be doing this kind of work, you know, a lot of different kinds of arguments we make against women working right, like the glass ceiling, and the barriers, they're all exists in three regions.
So as a woman, not only is it hard, in general, because of the working conditions that are, you know, mediocre and exploitative. You also have to deal with the fact that you're a woman and you're not welcome. So I think I want people to keep that in mind that there is this other layer of inequity besides the workforce equity issue, which is the woman issue, though the gender, our ability to be who we are. And when I say women empowerment, what I learned about Indigenous women and just women in general and including myself, well, empowerment is a human issue, not a gender issue, to be honest, it's all about being our true selves. You know, if I wanted to be a global mountain Nomad, I should be able to do that, because that's who I am. Does it matter whether I'm a woman or man?
No, but honestly, I have to tell you that I want to be a global mountain GNOME. It would probably have been easier to be set by a man because of me being a woman, my family even though I'm crazy. You should be married, you know. So women empowerment really relies on freedom to be who we are, right. And we need to keep that in mind in the spaces and travel spaces that we get into, especially with a local community, that gender equity is a problem. And no matter whether that's the porters or the guides, it actually permeates the entire industry, as far as I know, right. As far as I've seen, and even in Mongolia, where we have a woman led because of baggy cows. You know, we still I have to say actually, this is the least sexist place I've ever been in a situation because we're women lead we're a woman of color lead, and a lot of our students are women as well and but the men are supporting it. So there is hope that things are changing. Changing right slowly. That's an example of a change that I've seen in a, you know, that happened in Mongolia.
But in Peru, it's still very slow. You know, I am sad to say, in Tanzania in Nepal, the trucking industry's women are having a hard time getting into these spaces and working safely, because there is a risk for them for the porters just I want people to know that if you are if you see a female border, chances are they're dealing with things that you don't know about, besides the working conditions, one being unsafe on the trail, they get harassed, we've received reports of sexual harassment, we even read some article about a woman being sexually assaulted and beaten Kilimanjaro. So some of this, most of this is not being documented to think about it, because why would they want to report that? According to the women, there is no consequence for people who do anything like that the men are, you know, protected.
They're not there's no law protecting women, when it comes to sexual assault or harassment at all, so they don't report it. So we still have an industry where when women are porters, or even guides, we don't have any protection. We don't have safety nets for women, we don't have laws protecting women's rights on these trails. And that's one of the goals I have reported voice Collective is one, not only work on the border laws in general, but create a guideline for women porters worldwide, to create a safety of measures for them, like a guideline for everyone to, to follow, and even create laws to protect women in these mountains. So we're still lacking that we're so far behind with that. So I want people to keep that in mind when you see a female Porter, I bet you're you're dealing with a lot more than just what men deal with on the trail. So we have to advocate for them. How do we do that? We tell operators who ask questions about it. You have the female Porter, how are you protecting them?
You know? How is it? How's it going? How do you keep them safe? Do you tell them? Do you have the engaging conversations with the male partners, so they understand what it means for women porters to be there, because we need to have some sort of cultural training as well for men to understand what their role is with the women porters and how they can engage with them effectively. So ask the operators about the women. Why do you have woman porters? What does it mean to you to have woman porters, because I do want to warn people, women have also been commodified? When reporters are there as a marketing tool. And we have to be conscious that a lot of this app is true. It's great that they're working. But a lot of people have received complaints that they're tired of being commodified. They have to talk to writers, they have to publicize the operators are pressuring them to be part of a film so that you know, so that can be a marketing tool for the operator.
So we need to really have a close eye on whether an operator is really supporting gender equity, or are they really just using women as a marketing tool? Because sadly, that's also happening, unfortunately,
Christine Winebrenner Irick 57:55
oh, my goodness, I feel like there's so
57:57
much to talk about.
Christine Winebrenner Irick 57:59
I'm like, Oh, my gosh, there's so much and we're gonna be out of time. But yeah, I Yes, all of the things that you just said, and honestly, something I've really grappled with in my business, because I do want to support women, I want to use women guides, I guide women on trips, I want them to connect with women. And that means guides and porters and entrepreneurs and artisans.
And yet, like you said, then this means are we commodifying the women and making them a part of this experience, and how do we make sure that we're doing this in a way that is equitable? And again, I think the most important thing, like you said, is asking the questions, this is the way that we're going to make sure conversations are happening. This is where we're going to uncover when things are not working, right. This is where we're going to realize where things are working right so that we can make sure that we're creating best practices that highlight those success stories. And also just you mentioning, thinking about safety for porters and for female guides.
This is the conversation I've had so many times. And you know, the very first time having those conversations, that's something that really shakes you and when you really want to advocate for those women to be part of this industry in the way that they want to and knowing full well that they're putting themselves in harm's way to to kind of break through this glass ceiling. It's also a really hard conversation to have and yeah, I don't feel like we're going to come to obviously any resolve in this one hour conversation but I I just so deeply appreciate the work that you are doing.
For people that want to learn more because I feel like we've not even scratched the surface Honestly, how can they connect with you? Beyond visiting The Porter Voice Collective I know that they can check out the document entry and you have another film coming out as well, that is going to be examining some of this. Where should people go for more information?
1:00:10
Yeah, so for the Porter issues, human rights issues with a workforce equity, you can go to Porter and collect that org, that's the website you can, there are resources there to educate yourself about the problem and then be an advocate. If you have questions, you can send an email at the portervoice@gmail.com. I also have my website Bronco tracker, which has equity global tracks, the mountain tracking organization that I have, if you want to join our tours like because begi camp, for example, the 30 day initiative in Mongolia, I have that as well. I have women lead Kilimanjaro climbs, woman led climbs in Nepal and Peru, I basically focus on women a lot with the guiding but also community led type of projects.
So they can check out equity, global checks on BrownGalTrekker.com website. And just you know, a lot of the critiques and writings I have about the industry, you can find them there as well. But you can send me an email through the website BrownGalTrekker.com. So yeah,
Christine Winebrenner Irick 1:01:04
and I really encourage people, I have spent a lot of time the last couple of weeks, just like picking one and reading it. And then that sends me down a rabbit hole of like examining a few other things. And I come back to your website and read another article, and then I'm off. But I feel like, there, there's so much there. I really, really appreciate your time with me today. Again, I don't even know how we've already talked this long, because I feel like we could have talked about so many more things.
But I so strongly believe in the work that you're doing. I know many, many of my listeners, and this will deeply resonate with them. So I hope that this has just created a space for taking a closer look at what is happening behind the scenes in the industry. So many travelers are really starting to see behind the curtain, I think like we mentioned at the beginning of this conversation and really understand that it's so much more than this, like a peak experience that happens like, you know, a five days trek is just the tip of the wave. And there's so many pieces that come together to create that experience. And I think that's what we really, really need to be looking at and understanding how that comes together to create this moment that traps us as travelers are looking forward to and should look forward to. But I think there's so many ways we can strengthen what we're doing in this industry.
1:02:35
Yes. And I think I just I mean, just one last sort of advice I would give everyone besides the questioning and sort of having these conversations is you want to just really focus on where the voice is coming from. You know, for me, it's like when I first got into the travel industry, I noticed there's a pattern where a lot of the people talking, or not the local people, but we talk about them like subjects, like we talk about them, they do exist, but we never have them in the platform. You know what I mean?
Think about access, I think about access a lot with my work, I think about voice a lot about my work, when it comes to local people, like if I am going to go to a place why just not you know, don't listen to the middleman, don't listen to the people on the front end, try to figure out and get as close as possible to the local community directly. I'm an avid supporter of community led tourism because when I spoke with the porters, what they really want is to invite guests to come to their home, and people to become guests and then being the host. And to me that tells me they want a direct link with the world. They don't want to be run by operators. Because you know what the best part of tourism is? It's really those people who live; they're not the operators who are running business.
You know what I mean? So, I'm always fascinated why we have an industry where there's so many middlemen, there's so many people of us, kind of like going through all these people just to get to really the heart of it, which is the community. And this is why I wanted to share something about what the community is feeling at this point. They want to be part of the tourism industry, but they want to be directly part of it. Not anymore in the background, because they've been in the background for so long. That's why because Vega camp is important because during the forefront if anything I'm the only one person who's like the outsider but I'm I'm so I mean, I don't even mean to me, this is a passion project. I don't make money off of it.
This is a project that I've done for free time, all my labor and labor of love for me on my end and I'm going to leave it behind at some point for them to run. So we need to start thinking about how to create the host guest situation relationship more than a service. The industry uses porters and guides as service providers. We have to start thinking of them as the hosts and the owners of their tourism. That's a huge goal. I don't know if that's going to happen. But that's to me. That's the mode and the path towards decolonization. thing. That's another topic we can all talk about. I'm always fascinated by why so many outside people are involved in the Peru industry. Why are we not letting them run? Because the way I felt from the Porter Federation President and the communities that I've spoken to, they want to be directly linked to the consumers no longer being used or hard or whatever else, because that's where exploitation happens. But if they are the leaders of their own tourism, they're the ones who run their own, you know, tours, there's no more room for exploitation, we're gonna get rid of all that. Right.
So we always have to, I want to ask that question of the industry. Why is it there? Is there a need for huge companies from the UK to all these places to be in it? What is our role? What is the role of these people? Because the problem is, we are creating exploitation by being here, maybe we need to leave the space and give that back to the community because that community that that tourism, through belongs to prove it well, you will not belong to any of us to be honest, it's not our product. It's not even our product, it's theirs. But we're going there to go get it and sell it, we need to have a reflection on that. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, what we are as outsiders, but we have to have an honest conversation about what our role is about. Right?
Christine Winebrenner Irick 1:06:36
Absolutely. I believe that's like the chicken and egg conversation I've had with myself over and over again, with really wanting to, to, to have bring people to have these experiences that I've been really lucky to have connecting with community. But then all of a sudden, I'm creating the exact same thing. That's like, like, you're saying, like the middleman like, well, you could go and have the same experience, but many people aren't. And so wanting to create that really powerful community led to experience and this connection and engagement.
And not everybody has the skill set or the ambition to connect the dots, but then you're creating the exact same adding to the system that already isn't working. So I really appreciate that perspective, I really appreciate so much the work you're doing. And I really hope that people listening, just start to seek ways that we can create systemic change in this industry, because I agree, I think there's so much beauty in what many people are setting out to do. And I think we just need to examine what we've created as kind of a byproduct to the experiences that that we we have set out to create and yeah, there's just there's so much so much room for possibility and, and change.
And I think it's just time to start having the conversations that people have shied away from for many years. So I hate to end the conversation. But I think I guess we better but again, just for people listening, please just know like, there's so much more here and reach out to me, reach out to her now and look at the resources she mentioned. And I think that hopefully we can maybe come back and tie down one or two of these topics a little bit more in depth and and really create some more understanding of the impact that we can have when we're looking at these issues in the industry.
1:08:50
Yeah, thank you Kristin for this. You know, I appreciate the space and the time that you put in for these conversations are not always comfortable, but definitely they should continue. So yeah,
Christine Winebrenner Irick 1:09:00
I agree. I agree. The most uncomfortable or usually the most rewarding, so at least find out that much so far. All right. Well, thank you so much for being here. And I will Yeah, I can't wait to learn more from you in the future on this.
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