Episode 176 - Alice Morrison, Author of Dodging Elephants
In this episode of Soul of Travel, Season 5: Women's Wisdom + Mindful Travel, presented by @journeywoman_original, Christine hosts a soulful conversation with Alice Morrison.
Alice is an author, adventurer, and TV presenter living in the heart of Morocco. For the first 8 years of her life, Alice got to run free in the African Bush, roaming around the foothills of the Mountains of the Moon in Uganda, hunting tadpoles and running away from snakes. She studied Arabic and Turkish at Edinburgh University and spent time in Syria, Egypt, England, Scotland, and more. She has presented through Middle East Broadcasting, BBC News, and served as CEO of Vision+Media, a company dedicated to growing creative industry.
Building a Unique View of the World
Alice currently lives in the heart of the mountains in Morocco (be sure to check out the video where Alice shows us her home on YouTube!), surrounded by 10k+ peaks in a traditional village with houses made of clay and stone, where she has been for the last five years.
Travel has been the norm for Alice throughout her life; her global upbringing began in the foothills of Uganda. “When you start your life by living in a different country, it does shape your approach to everything,” Alice shares. When she was eight years old, her family returned to Scotland so that Alice could attend school. The culture shock was real; she was protected and loved with her family, but got an idea of what it meant to learn how to fit in.
When she attended University, Alice studied Arabic and Turkish, developing an appreciation of the Arabic-speaking and Turkish-speaking worlds. She worked in the language of Arabic as a journalist in BBC News before moving into English reporting, and now, has returned to Africa and the language immersion she grew to love.
Saying “Yes” to Adventure
When she had to fold her company and close up shop, she registered for a race in Cairo with sixty-two other people to race via bicycle across the continent. Hoping to sort out her life and create a plan over the journey, Alice found herself simply living in the present during the entire trip.
Christine describes that this is often the lesson she learns (and re-learns): that mindfulness is the way forward.
Slow, mindful, immersive travel has become the heart of everything Alice does today. She describes a visit she had with nomads where she was given the very best of everything they had, including fresh goat’s milk, dates, walnuts, and the greatest gift, generous welcoming company.
“Once you have these kids of experiences, I think this is what you hope for, time and time again,” shares Christine.
Learning New Perspectives
Sharing that she acknowledges her privilege as an educated person who has achieved so much in life, Alice shares how interesting it is when she encounters a new perspective of her hosts who feel that she is missing out on what is valued most in their culture. Alice shares that she is happiest when sharing her appreciation and time with many people.
You CAN do it: you just have to DO it.
Alice shares the following inspiring advice for everyone facing a new challenge or thinking of taking the leap into a new adventure.
“Do not let yourself be defined by what other people's expectations are. You are enough. You are good enough. You are not too old, too fat, too ugly, too poor, too stupid. You're not. Just be confident in yourself. Get out there and do what you fancy doing. That's the trick. I think the absolute trick in this is what would you like to do. And if it's something that's a bit of a stretch, that's even better because you will stretch and you will grow. And my honest advice is, you know, don't let the fears of others or the ideas of others put you off because once you start, just take the first step and you honestly, you'll get there really, really, truly you will. I have a hundred percent faith in you.”
“Just be confident in yourself. Get out there and do what you fancy doing. That’s the trick.”
Soul of Travel Episode 176 At a Glance
In this conversation, Christine and Alice discuss:
How her global upbringing led to a life of adventure and travel
Learning to fit in and get along with people from all around the world
How studying around the world opened her eyes to different cultures
The path of media colliding with journalism, writing, and adventure
Join Christine now for this soulful conversation with Alice Morrison.
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Related UN Sustainable Development Goals
Sustainable Development Goal #4: Ensure inclusive and equitable quality education and promote lifelong learning opportunities for all.
Sustainable Development Goal #5: Achieve gender equality and empower all women and girls.
Sustainable Development Goal #10: Reduce inequality within and among countries.
Sustainable Development Goal #11 Make cities and human settlements inclusive, safe, resilient and sustainable.
Resources & Links Mentioned in the Episode
Get to know Alice Morrison and read about her latest travels.
Check out Alice’s books: Dodging Elephants, Morocco to Timbuktu: An Arabian Adventure,Adventures in Morocco, and Walking with Nomads.
About the Soul Of Travel Podcast
Soul of Travel honors the passion and dedication of people making a positive impact in the tourism industry. In each episode, you’ll hear the stories of women who are industry professionals, seasoned travelers, and community leaders. Our expert guests represent social impact organizations, adventure-based community organizations, travel photography and videography, and entrepreneurs who know that travel is an opportunity for personal awareness and a vehicle for global change.
Join us to become a more educated and intentional traveler as you learn about new destinations, sustainable and regenerative travel, and community-based tourism. Industry professionals and those curious about a career in travel will also find value and purpose in our conversations.
We are thought leaders, action-takers, and heart-centered change-makers who inspire and create community. Join host Christine Winebrenner Irick for these soulful conversations with our global community of travelers exploring the heart, the mind, and the globe.
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Soul of Travel Episode 176Transcript
Women’s travel, transformational travel, sustainable travel, women leaders in travel, social entrepreneurship
[00:00:00] Christine: Welcome to Soul of Travel podcast. I'm happy to be bringing a conversation with Alice Morrison to you today. And she is an author, adventurer, and also sometimes referred to as the Indiana Jones for girls. So I can't wait to share a little bit more and learn how all of that has come to be. But first just to welcome you to the podcast, Alice.
Thank you very much for having me. I'm very excited to be here. Thank you. Well, I have, this is a fun one for me because a lot of times I know quite a bit about my guests and for you, you sent me over some information about yourself and I was like, Oh, she sounds really interesting. And I just said, yes.
And then I realized as I was preparing, I'm like, Oh, I don't know as much about her as I might often. And then I got to start digging through your background and became very excited. I have like recently really been drawn to long [00:01:00] distance hiking and especially the trails that take you across countries like the Jordan trail, which I know you have done recently.
And. It feels like such a beautiful and unique way to experience a destination. So I can't wait to hear from you and like rekindle this curiosity I have about this type of travel. But before we get going, I'd love to just turn it over to you and give you the opportunity to introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about you, and then we'll jump back in your story and start to learn about where you came from.
[00:01:37] Alice: Okay, so my name is Alice Morrison. I am an adventurer, an author, and a TV presenter, and I currently live in the heart of the Atlas Mountains of Morocco, and if you're watching this on video, I will describe it, but I'm going to carry my laptop out and show you my view, and then I'll describe it to those of you who are on audio.
So I live in a small village surrounded by [00:02:00] 3, 000 meter plus peaks. I think that's 10, 000 feet. One of them is just currently covered in snow because we had rain for the last two days, which is amazing because we've had a drought. It's a traditional Amazigh village. So all everything, all the houses are made of clay and stone.
So everything looks kind of golden or rosy in the light. And I've been living here for five years amongst the Amazigh people. I live in a family compound with four families and me, which is very sociable and hospitable. I speak Arabic and I am learning Tashlihit, which is the local Amazigh. Amazigh is the correct, No name for Berber is the local Amazigh language.
So I think I'm very immersed in the culture here. I love it very much. And I'm leading a very interesting and slightly schizophrenic life. I love that description and thank you for showing us. I know that you're in one of what I imagine one of the most beautiful regions of the [00:03:00] world. I've known so many people that have had the privilege of traveling there.
And. Uh, every time I see pictures or hear stories, it just sounds surreal. And you're welcome at any time. Thank you. Well, I usually begin by asking my guests when they were bitten by the travel bug or to share one of their earliest travel experiences to kind of begin to understand how travel has shaped them or how their relationship with travel has evolved over their lifetime.
But for you in learning more about you, it seems like travel really has been the norm for you throughout your life and that you've really had a global upbringing. So it wasn't really travel. It was just. But I would love to hear from you. Can you share a little bit about, about, you know, your, your childhood and growing up that way?
Uh, sure. Well, so my very first, I think this is my very first memory is of a, a very tall thin man with a spear and long ear lobes and a red kind of [00:04:00] loincloth standing silhouetted in the. The kind of archway roof, you know, window roof of my house. Uh, because when I was six weeks old, my parents who were extremely adventurous took off on a boat and sailed for East Africa.
And I was brought up in Uganda in the foothills of the mountains of the moon, the ruins of Zuri mountains. So really, as you say, travel, I've never really known anything except it. And when you start your life by living in a different country, I think you have a I think it does shape your approach actually to everything.
Yeah. And then I know a little later on, you ended up in the UK for school. And I imagine that was like a, I can't imagine the shift from kind of. The magic of Uganda where I have traveled and the open space and the warmth to where you landed. So can you talk about what, what that was like? Cause I'm sure that was a huge shift where you realized [00:05:00] that the, the lifestyle you were living was so different, maybe than other.
you know, people where you, where you went back. Sure. Of course. So, you know, when you're a child, you really just, you're, you're, I mean, you're entirely selfish, aren't you? Because you only see the world through your own eyes and you don't have any real sense of perspective, I think, which is probably the sign of a great childhood because you're protected and looked after and your family cares for you.
So I think I've been very, very fortunate in that way. And when we, when I was eight things were very difficult in Uganda. Idi Amin was in power. People were being murdered everywhere. Slaughtered. And my parents also wanted to give us an education. I'm Scottish 100%. My parents are both teachers.
That's why they were in Uganda. And so education is very important in my family. And so we came back to Scotland to see, you know, so I could go to school. Basically, my brother was four. And it was a very, and the only way I can describe it is because don't forget this was the time before the internet, before [00:06:00] anything really, so Africa disappeared.
We left Africa where I'd been brought up and suddenly I was in Scotland and it was honestly as if Africa disappeared. You know, I'd been brought up with different languages, with different colors of people. Most people I knew were black. And then suddenly everyone's white. Everybody felt very foreign.
The countryside, I mean, I'd been back and forth to Scotland on holidays and to meet my grandparents, but it did feel strange. I was with my family, I was protected, I was looked after, I was loved but I had a tiny unders a very tiny understanding of what it must be like to suddenly, you know, if you're a refugee, you leave your country, you have to go to another country.
It just all feels odd and you don't you have to learn how to fit in. And I think that's been a theme throughout my whole life, wanting to fit in. And I remember very distinctly, one of the things as we were in the west coast of Scotland, we actually had to live in a tent when we first got back to Scotland because my parents had no money.
And if any of you've been to Scotland, it rains a lot. [00:07:00] Anyway, we're living in a tent, going to school. And I just remember my teacher kept asking me to read aloud. I was at primary school because I was way ahead educationally of the other children, way ahead. And I just remember thinking so distinctly, don't ask me to read because I'm going to get beaten up in the playground.
Because for the first time ever, I saw children beating each other in the playground. I was like, keep your head down, Alice, keep the head down. And that was a very clear memory as well.
[00:07:29] Christine: Just as you were describing that, it's so interesting because I think many of us grow up with like This romanticized vision of traveling and going places like Africa or places that for us are hard to understand because it's not been our experience.
And you know, you kind of did that backwards compared to how I think many people that I've spoken to, because I haven't talked with any, many people born in Africa, or if they have, they still live there. So it's like a very different experience. And then I [00:08:00] also really appreciate the perspective of being able to understand what.
The transition for refugees must be like because I think it's something, really unimaginable for most people and to be able to have the compassion for that experience, I think, especially the way that you've traveled probably really allows you to relate to people's circumstances and understand some of those experiences in a way that many of us haven't.
[00:08:28] Alice: I hope so. I think, but I would stress, you know, I, we were leaving voluntarily. My parents were coming back to their own country. I was loved. I was, we had, we had everything we needed. So the experience, we weren't being ejected after terrible suffering from our own country. So it's a very different experience and I don't in any way want to compare them.
But all I would say is that feeling of being other and of being strange and of not quite fitting in. It's very difficult when you're a child, you're like, Oh, and you, you [00:09:00] know, that you're kind of in danger because you know, children are, we haven't civilized ourselves out of brutality yet really. However, whatever form that takes.
So I think just that awareness.
[00:09:13] Christine: Thank you. And thank you for, for clarifying that. And even as you were speaking to, I remember the first time I went to Africa and I had traveled quite a lot in Asia and South and Central America, but there was something about. It took me a long time to get there.
It probably took me four days and I was awake most of those four days until I finally arrived. And then fell asleep for like a few hours and I was due to go out and meet a group. I was there for a conference and they were going to be taking a bus to the source of the Nile. So I was in Uganda and I remember walking out of the hotel, really delirious and probably Similar but reverse to your experience.
It was probably the first time in my life. One, I'd seen this. Particular environment. [00:10:00] And it was dark when we arrived. So we landed in the airport and Kampala drove to where we were. They had no idea where I was, walked into this hotel, crashed out, walked outside or all these buses with names that I couldn't read, and then all of a sudden I was surrounded by all of these people that seemed unimaginably tall.
And I don't know why, cause I'm five 10 and, and it was the first time in my life that everyone around me was black. And they were also. I don't know why in my mind, I expected I would be able to speak the language of where I was. I just, it didn't cross my mind. So I stood outside and I was just having this like outer body experience.
And I was, I just remember thinking like, Oh my God, this is so cool. This is so beautiful. And there is no way I can mentally process this in this moment. And I like went back upstairs and went to sleep. And that was like my first moment in Africa, but it was the first time as a traveler, I felt. Like, out of my element.
Everywhere [00:11:00] else, for some reason, I still felt, like, home. Or, I didn't feel as confronted by The differences around me. And I don't, I still, to this day, I don't know why, why that felt so disjointed and maybe it was exhaustion, but it was a very interesting experience. I would say it sounds amazing. I would love to hear from you.
As you mentioned, you, you have had a lot of experience traveling. I know that you, your education continued to kind of take you to different countries. And. Allow you to kind of be immersed in different cultures and have again, just like build this, I think, very unique vision of the world because you could see it from all these different perspectives.
So I, I don't know if you want to speak to a little bit about that. Like, it feels like you really had this invitation or like open door policy to kind of move through the world.
[00:11:56] Alice: Oh, well, that's a very nice [00:12:00] and beautiful way to put it. I think, I mean, I don't know. I, I'm not sure I recognize myself from that description, but, and also, you know, Scots are inveterate travelers.
So, I've met an awful people like me who've lived away and been away and traveled away. So, I guess I don't feel that different in that respect. However, what I would say is, you know, my parents always encouraged me to embrace challenges and differences. And I studied Arabic and Turkish at university, which again, then took me in that direction.
And that was one of, well, it was, I'd say probably the single best decision I've ever made, which I made at 16 because I left school at 17 already to go into university. And it was really influenced by my parents, but it, that opened my eyes in a very deep way. It's a whole completely new, different culture, which was the Islamic culture, the Arab world, the Arabic speaking world, and then the [00:13:00] Turkish speaking world, although I know that far less.
So, you know, it's strange, isn't it? In life, how, you a decision could put your feet on a path. And I mean, I strayed from that path. You know, I did work in Arabic for the first one, two, about six or seven years of my career. And then I moved into mainstream reporting. I was actually an editor on BBC and BBC news in the television side.
So, and then I worked in, I kept going through that media path in English. So it's not like I directed all my energies to go down this one path of travel, Arabic, et cetera. What I would say is I did. Start off in that way. I then detoured and then I've really come back to it, like firmly come back to it and embraced it again, which has been a huge source of joy for me.
So yeah, I think life, you know, depends which path you follow. It's the open, which door do you to open? Which, which, which fork in the road do you take? And it leads you down a certain way. I think as you journey through life, what I have found for myself, and this is really only for myself, [00:14:00] is that I've come back to Africa and I've circled, I've come back.
I was brought. The, you know, foothills of the mountains. I'm living in the foothills of the mountains.
[00:14:10] Christine: Living in other cultures and not maybe having what people might call a typical upbringing, you still kind of later found yourself on a traditional path that led you to holding a CEO position.
And like many of our guests, you were in this space and you found yourself looking for something else and really hearing the call to adventure, which eventually led you to the Africa. But can you talk to me about what that moment felt like and maybe What, what that meant to you to say yes to this opportunity to take part in this, in the tour to Africa?
[00:14:47] Alice: Sure. So, like probably many of you listening, I had a proper job. You know, I had the clothes, the car, the house, the friends, very settled life. I loved my life actually. [00:15:00] And it was a very interesting job. Every single holiday I had, I would like go mountain biking in Guatemala or ice climbing in Peru, or I would spend all my money to share, you know, share a two- man tent with someone I'd never met in some wilderness somewhere.
And I think I'd always enjoy, I loved the outdoors. You know, I was living in the Peak District, but working in Manchester, so I had hills on my doorstep. And what happened was my company, I had to fold it in. I had to kill my baby effectively. I had to fold my company into a bigger company. It was very bruising.
I, I made people redundant. I made myself redundant. I know you don't say that in America. I had to sack people and sack myself. And then I saw this, I heard about this race ages ago called the Tour de Freak, where you race on a bicycle, you cycle from Cairo to Cape Town. And I was like, yes, that's what I'll do.
I'm so fed up. I will race. From Cairo to Cape Town.
It really was that kind of like, I needed, I signed up very minimal training, [00:16:00] very minimal, and then January, I think January the 6th from memory off I set from Cairo, from the pyramids with 62 other people to race on a bicycle across Africa.
[00:16:11] Christine: It's incredible. Had you, I know you said you were doing some kind of adventure biking in other countries, but had you done anything of this scale before when you said Yes, I'll just ride across the entire continent of Africa.
[00:16:28] Alice: Absolutely not. And I can tell you for genuine, like, because I hadn't, I wasn't actually in good shape then. And I was a lot thinner, which helped, but I basically on day four of the tour, recycling across Sinai in Egypt, you know, everything hurts. Like my whole body hurts and you have to, Do a certain amount of miles per day and you're on a timed stage.
So you, you know, if you get timed out, you're, you've not done that stage. So you've got to keep up. And we had to ride in a Peloton, a group [00:17:00] of riders, which means you're riding like two inches away from the next person's wheel. And sometimes you have to go to the front, which means you have to ride at their pace.
And they were riding faster than I could comfortably ride. And so I was literally out physically straining for like eight hours. It was unbearable. And I was just sitting on this bike it was awful. Everything hurt. My bottom hurt. All my bits hurt. My back hurt. My legs were just like, oh, I couldn't even feel them.
Just thinking, you know, what am I doing? Why am I, what am I doing? And this is going to be, I'm only in Egypt. I've got nine more countries and a half to go. Yes. I had regrets.
[00:17:42] Christine: Well, and I think it's so interesting because both with this and we'll talk later about some of your like long distance, other long distance travel is you're so alone with yourself.
So all you can do is have a conversation about the choice that you made and what's to come. And like, you can't [00:18:00] escape that because you're just stuck there with yourself.
[00:18:02] Alice: That is very true. I mean, the great thing about Tour de 'Freak, of course, was there were 63 of us doing this race and, you know, you quickly teamed up with a buddy. And so my buddy was a guy called Mike from Germany. And we just, we spent a lot of time talking about our lives. And then as actually funny enough, at the beginning, we spent a lot of time together.
And then as the race wore on, we got to the mountains and then it's very difficult to ride in a group because you naturally spread out. And then from then on, exactly as she described, I was on my own and I thought I would have big thoughts because, you know, I'd given up an amazing job on this 120 day journey.
I would sort my life out, at least in my head. And I did not. I did not have a single thought about the future. I thought only only of the present. Things like, Oh, do I need to have a wee? Oh, oh, is this tire getting a bit flat? Oh, have I eaten my power bar? Oh, should I have some water? Oh, everything hurts.
Oh, [00:19:00] look, there's a baobab tree. Oh, I mean, I literally lived in the present for that whole time.
[00:19:06] Christine: Wow. I, that's so great. That's such an interesting perspective because I think many of us want these grand adventures because we do think we'll figure it all out along the way. Right. That we, we have this idea that that's how it's going to happen, but then it does become about like, pick my foot up again, pick my foot up again, pick my foot up again.
So then you are very present, which then actually, I think for some people has a profound effect because we don't spend that much time. So. Present in our life. So it's like you come looking for this like great sweeping view and those answers, but you maybe just learn more about yourself and how to be present.
So it's like a different learning or growth, but one that finds you anyway. [00:20:00] Well, after this race, it seems that you were really bitten by the adventure travel bug or like this was something that you really enjoyed. What throughout your life has kept bringing you back to adventure travel? Like what about it do you think really speaks to you and lights you up about it?
[00:20:20] Alice: Well, I think I'm very curious. I'm very interested. You know, journalism was my core career, and I obviously was brought up abroad, so I like people from different countries. I like to be immersed. I like the role also of observer to some extent. So that allows you to do that when you're traveling. And I think on the adventure side, you know, I prefer to do things because I think sometimes if you're traveling just to look at things for me personally, I'm, I don't find as much satisfaction that I actually like to be doing something.
So adventure travel, you know, hiking or biking or whatever, you are actually doing something and absorbing the country as you go. And [00:21:00] also I love the outdoors.
[00:21:01] Christine: Well, the one of the things that I really wanted to talk to you about is the kind of the style of travel that you have experienced by its nature. It's been a little bit slower, having you connected with local communities. I'm really seeing things that a lot of people don't see because of the pace and way you're traveling.
And I'm wondering what what are some of the experiences you've had that have really stuck with you because of this, the style of travel.
[00:21:27] Alice: You know, so many, it's now really at the heart of everything I want to do actually and do. So one experience, I was walking across walking down the Draa River in Morocco with my camels and my guides, and we came across a group of nomads.
They were sheep and goat nomads, and they were very poor. really very, very poor living. They had a tent, but they also had a little guest tent set up, especially for visitors. And I was allowed to go in and meet the women that are my, the men I was with were not allowed into the family [00:22:00] tent because society here is segregated in that way. So I went in to meet the women and, you know, they brought us out. These people really had very, very little, very, very little, I mean, they're nomads, they have what they can carry apart from anything else. They took us into there, the father took us into the guest tent and they gave us the very best, the very best of every single thing they had.
And they gave us so much of it and they wanted us to eat it and enjoy it. They wanted us to drink their goat's milk, to eat the fresh bread that the women had made, to eat their precious dates and walnuts, which are, you know, a luxury and expensive, and that kind of hospitality and warmth and just acknowledgement of common humanity, I think is.
One of the things that touches me the most about the kind of traveling I do.
[00:22:49] Christine: I think those are the moments that really resonate with so many people when they travel. Like you might set out because you think you want to go see certain things or do certain [00:23:00] things, but then you have those moments that are so. Defining in understanding humanity, right? And that shared experience or that that gift of welcome. It is something that I think, like, deep within us, we recognize the importance and the beauty of that. And then Once you have those kinds of experiences, I think that's what you, you hope for time and time again, because they they're so nourishing.
[00:23:30] Alice: Yes, that's exactly right.
[00:23:32] Christine: Yeah. Well, I wanted to know a little bit too, as we were, you know, talking about the way that you are able to connect and see things, some of the things that You're really privy to is seeing and understanding social issues firsthand. That's something for me when I travel that I find myself noticing or being curious about especially witnessing, you know, the cultural effects of climate change and social change and the area that you've been living in.[00:24:00]
Can you share a little bit about kind of what you've learned through your travels and through living in Morocco as well.
[00:24:08] Alice: Yeah, well, so one of the things that I've learned I think that might be interesting and maybe the audience hasn't thought about before is you know, I consider myself to come from very privileged background.
My parents were both teachers. I've lived abroad. I've been really well educated. I've had great jobs. I'm totally free. You know, I've chosen not to be married and not have children. No problem. Although we do still get judged by society all the time, which is tiring. And then I come to Morocco to live here and I consider myself I've achieved a lot in my life.
I'm proud of myself. I'm, I think I've been successful and I continue to be so, which is important in our culture. And I come to live in this tiny compound with four families and they love me. I love them right back, but the women are all like, Oh, poor Alice. Who are you? And I'm like, why? And they're like, it's such a shame. I'm like, [00:25:00] what? They said, you're not married. You don't have any children. He said, well, it's such a shame. And you're so nice. Do you know, we can find you a husband. I'm like, no, no, it's all right. I'm quite happy. And they say, you don't live with your family. Your family is far away in Scotland. You're all on your own.
It's so sad. We're so sad for you. We pity you so much. You don't have a husband to carry your shopping or to provide for you. You're, you have to do everything on your own. This is. terrible. And it's a real wake up call because I think in the West, people are very used to pitying other nations who they believe or other peoples who they believe have less than them.
And actually, it's really a matter of perspective because to my Moroccan friends here, they have so much more than I do. And I think that's been a really big lesson for me, and I suspect it's a reasonably new perspective for some people.
[00:25:46] Christine: Oh, that is such a, an interesting perspective. And like, what equals freedom and what equals success, which is something we talk a lot about on the podcast to define those two things.
Cause it seems like values that are [00:26:00] important to everybody. And one of the things we fall into is the trap of success only looking one way. Right. And then here you are living in this duality where success is this and success is this. And. Even though you feel personally successful or fulfilled, it's not perceived the same way because of the social construct.
So that's, it's like, you, you kind of can't win. Socially, either way,
I like to look at it. Yeah, definitely a win win, but I do think it's interesting. And actually, when you were first describing to me, when we hopped on the call that you live with all these four other families in this compound, and I thought, Oh, how I would love that.
I love that's one of the things I love most when I travel is seeing this like communal living. And so I was thinking what a, what a beautiful gift. But then even in that space, it's like, wouldn't you want more? You, you wouldn't, you want [00:27:00] a husband and family. You're like, no, you're, you're like my dream of community.
But to have people understand that it's so different just because of the different perspectives.
[00:27:10] Alice: Yeah, it is.
[00:27:11] Christine: Well, I, I think that one of the things too, I wanted to talk to you about, which is similar, I guess, a little bit to what we were talking about just now. You've traveled most of your life.
Many of my guests and listeners are also travelers or travel professionals, and I've heard them talk about the idea of home. And for you, I'm curious, is there any one place that you call home or what is your relationship with the idea of home? Do you, do you feel like you have a connection kind of wherever you are or you've had to redefine, I guess, kind of like success and, and, you know, you know, feeling fulfilled, have you had to redefine what home means to you?
[00:27:53] Alice: No, I've never had to redefine home because, you know, I was brought up as a Scot in Africa. So my parents always talked about home as [00:28:00] both, you know, we're going home back to Uganda, we're going home back to Scotland. And I guess I've just taken that with me. So home, I've got three at the moment, I would say a home is Here, very much because this is where I live full time.
Home is where my parents are. I'm very lucky that they're both still alive and Scotland because that's where I'm from and they're in Edinburgh. So that's home. And then my third home is if you like my house in the Peak District in England, which was the last house I lived in when I was, before I started traveling.
And perhaps, and that's where I imagine I would go back to, although that is the one that probably fades more. And I guess when my parents pass away, maybe my relationship to Scotland will change. I don't know. So. I'm very comfortable with having more than one home and defining it either by people or by feeling or by actually where I live.
[00:28:45] Christine: I think it it's so interesting because I, I sensed that maybe it was a fluid, I guess, experience of home for you, but some people, I think when they travel a lot, even [00:29:00] coming back to your actual physical home can be difficult because your routine is so different than people that are working at more nine to five routine and you take off and travel for a week here and a month here and two weeks here. And you're trying to maintain relationships.
Again, kind of in a social construct that exists outside of your experience so that those roots and like the friends and the family and routine that you find associated with home sometimes people struggle with.
[00:29:31] Alice: Well, I think, you know, with the internet, WhatsApp, Zoom, et cetera, that, that is really no longer an issue. I have very close relationships with all my friends continuing. Of course I like to see them in real life and my family as well. But I think that's just become so much easier. You know, when I was growing up, we had letters.
So boarding school, it would take two weeks for a letter to get to me and then two weeks for my letter to get to my parents. So it was a very different kind of communication, and I asked to adjustment. I [00:30:00] mean, as I say, I'm very comfortable in my role as an outsider and as an observer to some extent.
And I try very hard to make people like me, or not to make them, but to allow them to embrace Alice. Uh, so I find a lot of, I find warmth and humanity. I mean, not everyone, of course, but I can usually form a bond with some people around me and that's enough for me. I'm happy to live, you know, a lot of people want to have two relationship or one relationship and live in within that very deep.
And I guess I'm happy to spread the love a bit shallower, but further afield.
[00:30:41] Christine: Oh, I love that. I love that. Perspective so much. It's beautiful. Well, as I mentioned at the beginning of the conversation you have been called the Indiana Jones for girls. However, that label came to you. But I'd love to hear your thoughts on being a role model and inspiration for other women who would love to travel [00:31:00] and not only travel, but honor their adventurous spirit and maybe break down and break out of some of the expectations that have been set for them.
[00:31:09] Alice: Well, first of all, I don't think I'm at all inspirational, but, or a role model, but what I can, what I can say very definitely to women and girls is you can do it. You just have to do it. So, you know, gird up your courage and just do what it is that you want to do, whatever it is. And it does not have to be, you know, cycling, or you might want to meet some new people, whatever it is that you feel is outside of your comfort zone, but you do it. That is an adventure and you have had an adventure and never. You know, most adventurers, explorers, which is what I am, are men. All of them are like tall, ex army, they wear those jackets with lots of pockets, have a very well defined jaw.
Certainly in the UK, and in America as well, you know the type. I mean, Indiana Jones, you know the type. And then look at me, I'm none of those things. Any of them have a double chin for [00:32:00] a start. But I mean, do not let yourself be defined by what other people's expectations are. You are enough. You are good enough.
You are not too old, too fat, too ugly, too poor, too stupid. You're not. Just be confident in yourself. Get out there and do what you fancy doing. That's the trick. I think the absolute trick in this is what would you like to do. And if it's something that's a bit of a stretch, that's even better because you will stretch and you will grow.
And my honest advice is, you know, don't let the fears of others or the ideas of others put you off because once you start, just take the first step and you honestly, you'll get there really, really, truly you will. I have a hundred percent faith in you.
[00:32:48] Christine: Thank you. I do think it's really important. For people though, to see the experience, someone else having the experience that they wish to have who, who they feel a [00:33:00] connection to. So it's, it's kind of hard to be that first brave person that only ever saw Harrison Ford doing these crazy things and you're like, Oh, I'm me and I am not Harrison Ford, but I wish to do this.
Not everyone can like bridge that gap. So I really do love that you, you felt that within yourself. And, and I think it's, it's really helpful to see people that we relate to having these experiences we dream about.
[00:33:25] Alice: I agree. And I mean, I must tell you, like, I came to Morocco for us to run this terribly difficult foot race, which is six marathons across the desert in six days.
And I'm a horrible runner. I hate running. I'm terrible at it. But I had to obviously train and practice. So I was, I signed up for the Marrakesh marathon. I think it was my first, I don't know, my first, that was, I think it was my second marathon anyways. So I signed up and I started running and, you know, like five hours in, I'm still not at the end.
And I realize. that all the aid stations have closed and that there are fewer and [00:34:00] fewer people behind me. And then at one stage I'm trotting along and unfortunately I have to actually pass the house I'm living in to get to the finish line, which was psychologically extremely difficult. And I'm trotting along and the ambulance, which is the sweeper ambulance comes up and it's got a group of about six people in it who've all given up.
The last people that have given up. And the guy goes and goes, you're the last one. Don't you want to give up? And I'm like, no, I do not. I'm only like 5k or 7k away from the end. I do not want to give up. And he's like, everyone else is finished. And at that moment, out of the mist, and I'm struggling with this.
I'm really competitive and I hate being, nobody wants to be last. You don't mind being like fifth last. You don't want to be last. I'm last in a major city world marathon. Anyway, at this point out of the mist, shoo, shoo, shoo, shoo. a motorcycle policeman with a huge handlebar mustache comes glistening all in white, big, big gauntlets out of the mist, the fog, the smog actually, let's be [00:35:00] honest, towards me.
And he's like, do you, and I'm doing all this in Arabic and I'm still trotting along and feeling humiliated. He says, do you want to finish? And I'm like, yeah, I want to finish. No problem. So he gets out his loudspeaker. He stops all the traffic and he drives ahead of you going, she's the last one in the marathon.
Make, she's the very last one. Oh my God. So my humiliation is like broadcast to the whole of Marrakesh. I got to the end. I passed like one of the biggest cafes in town and they all stood up and gave me a round of applause. And that's the thing. It didn't matter. It's one of my best and favorite stories now, partly because of Yusuf, the policeman, who also gave me a lift back up to the taxi rank to go home.
But the point is, yeah, I was last. I was actually the last. It was really humiliating. I suffered a lot of feelings during that time of like, I'm not good enough. I'm really crap. I'm so crap. I'm actually last. But [00:36:00] I did it. And now I've got a fantastic story, and what's more, I completed the Marathon des Sables and I came right in the middle, I came 665th out of 1, 100 people, of only whom 10 percent were women.
So that's, that's what I mean. It's like, even if it's a bit hard, and it's a bit rubbish, and you feel embarrassed to do it, but you know you want to do it, just do it, and you'll be fine. You might be lost, but you'll be fine.
[00:36:26] Christine: Yeah, I love that. And I, oh my gosh, I think just the, the grit to stick with it.
That's something I don't know that all of us have that. Like it's, it's so hard when you're faced with like the option, uh, when someone gives you the permission slip right there to, to end anything, whether it's, you know, uh, a challenge like this, if it's your business, if it's a relationship or whatever, to just like, I don't want that [00:37:00] permission slip.
And they're like, yes, you do. It's the really easy way. And you're like, literally looking up at the top of the mountain. That is the way that you're going to choose instead. And you're like, okay, I'm going this way. Like, I think that really, that really speaks to something about the way that you were making choices.
[00:37:20] Alice: It does, but I do think that all humans have that. I do think, you're right, do not take the permission slip. If you've decided to do it, just do it. Because, you know, in my life, I have taken the permission slip, always regretted it. Do I regret coming last in the Marrakesh Marathon? No, I love it. And I say, I love, I love the story.
I, I feel proud of that little kind of, Person trotting along, just feeling so embarrassed. And on the other hand, feeling absolutely delighted that she's getting a standing ovation from this cafe for being rubbish. Congratulations on being terrible at running. I'm like, Oh God. Okay. I'll take it.
[00:37:59] Christine: [00:38:00] Yeah, but also not that because I think they recognize they've recognized that too, like this, this.
person, like they never stopped. Like that's something it takes. It also is something to be last and own it. Right. And just be like, well, someone had to do it. Someone was going to be last, whether it was me or the person in front of me or the person in front of them who didn't get picked up by the ambulance.
So I, it's so great. Thank you so much for, for sharing that story. I really appreciate both the, the Good nature of it and the fun of it. And I think for many of our travelers, or many of the people that listen are solo female travelers and people who are looking to have these experiences. And I think as he may or may not know, but most women, most travelers right now are solo women travelers who are, and most adventure travelers are women travelers.
And so I think it's really important to just [00:39:00] show up and and talk about all of the things that are out there for us create space for those conversations. I know you've written books about your experiences so I wanted to talk a little bit about those before we end because I think that's another great way like so many of us.
Accidentally pick up the copy of Wild or Eat, Pray, Love or hopefully now one of your books and that's the thing that is their, actually their permission slip to go, right? So I want to just hear a little bit about each of your books before we end our conversation.
[00:39:34] Alice: Well, thank you very much for this opportunity to plug my books.
All my books are available on Amazon or in bookshops and I've written four. The first one I'll just whiz through them is called Dodging Elephants. Uh, spoiler alert, I'm still alive. But that's about a cycle trip and it's a whiz through 10 countries of Africa on a bike. All of my books are really trying to take you on the journey with me.
So. Honestly, I'm kind of like, I [00:40:00] do it so you don't have to, or maybe I do it so I can inspire you to do it too. Then I wrote a book about, I did a BBC television series about going from Morocco to Timbuktu, the elusive capital of Mali. Well, it's actually not the historical capital. capital of Mali, I should say.
And that was a very exciting adventure because Mali's quite a dangerous place now because of Al Qaeda who encircle it. It's, it's the most dangerous United Nations peacekeeping force mission in the world. Because unfortunately there's still a lot of violence there, but that was a very interesting Experience.
And then because I've been living in Morocco, I wanted to just share my adventures here, my fun, like a whiz around the country. So I wrote a book called Adventures in Morocco, which is about how to, you know, fight off an amorous taxi driver or how to bargain for a carpet or, you know, what do you do in the hamam when you're suddenly naked in a steam bath and you're like, Oh God, what's the etiquette?
And And then my final book, which [00:41:00] is the latest one that's out, is Walking with Nomads. And that's about this amazing adventure I did, which was to walk the whole of Morocco and the Sahara with six camels, my favorite one called Hamish, and my three Amazigh guides, including Brahim and Addi, who were with me for seven and a half months.
And that was really, that was like the most in depth, in a way, because, you know, walking day to day to day to day, some days are Wonderful Sundays are not getting to know these amazing men understanding more about how camels. what camels are and going to love camels, who I didn't really love before, and appreciate what amazing creatures they are.
And then really walking, that one was also a little bit about, you know, walking through climate change, because unfortunately the Sahel is drying out. And I, I witnessed, I not only witnessed that, I experienced it, you know, living under water stress is really hard. And I was living under water stress. Our whole, our days were, [00:42:00] Absolutely governed by where and when and how can we get water.
So that was, you know, again, an insight. Some of these insights, they don't make you happier about the world. I'll be honest. They do like make you sad about things, but on the other hand, there's so much happiness and joy in the human connections, the camel connections. Or my connections, just when I'm, I'm going around with people that I hope if you read any of my books or. Listen to them. I hope you'll feel there's so much common ground. I think you just, one of the things I like in travel books is recognizing myself in the adventure that someone else has happened or, you know, or if I've been to that place, like recognizing the place or if I've been somewhere similar, I love those kind of that integrated nature of the world that we live in.
[00:42:47] Christine: Yeah. Thank you. And I really loved the thought that you shared about. Not everything that you discover is joyous. I think it's really important. I think especially as we're traveling now [00:43:00] and hopefully realizing that travel is a real privilege, especially as the world is facing all the challenges that it's facing.
I think it's, it's important for us to actually travel and experience the things that are not just glossy pages of brochures, because it's, I think the act of traveling allows us to become the agents of change. Because when you see things, And you see people experiencing life circumstances that you're not familiar with because of a privilege you may have.
It really taps you into this global story and this global existence and, and understand why it's so important to make the changes we need to make in the world. I think it's really important to have those experiences that are uncomfortable.
[00:43:52] Alice: Yeah, and I, I think I, I was giving a speech the other day for the United Nations and I came across this quote, which I love, which is [00:44:00] give more than you take.
Travel should not be exploitative. Give more than you take and really think about it. And I think your audience are already on that wavelength, but I love that it kind of encapsulated things for me. It made me think I'll use that as a little mantra when I'm traveling. You know, and if I'm ever thinking about a tip, I'll think give more than you take, give them a proper tip or whatever it is, or, you know, don't, don't take that, you know, don't take the like little shampoos from your hotel room if you don't need them. It's things like that. It's tiny, tiny things, but it's definitely about, you know, walk gently in the world.
[00:44:37] Christine: I think it's a great mantra to like to have as you said on any travel experience because it's a really easy thing to just say how on this trip let me think ahead, could I give more than I'm going to take or receive on this experience to make it an equitable exchange.
And so I think it's great to get people in that mindset. And like you said, it could be [00:45:00] any number of things. It doesn't have to be this huge effort, but just thinking about travel as an equal exchange is already going to shift how you're moving through wherever you're traveling.
[00:45:11] Alice: I'm sure your audience already do that, to be honest.
These things are often like, I take them for myself. I'm like, I'm talking, I'm like, yes, remember that. Let's make a little mental note for next time.
[00:45:21] Christine: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Well, thank you so much for this conversation. I'm grateful we were able to get through it even with a little bit of technical difficulties.
I do have a few rapid fire questions that we can go through just to end our conversation. The first one is what are you reading right now?
[00:45:41] Alice: I am reading. I can show I'm reading a story of a Palestinian doctor whose three daughters were killed by IDF troops, and how he came to terms with that and is working for peace.
[00:45:55] Christine: Thank you. What is always in your suitcase or backpack when you're [00:46:00] traveling.
[00:46:00] Alice: A shawl. To sojourn is to travel somewhere as if you lived there for a short while.
[00:46:06] Christine: Where is some place that you would still love to sojourn?
[00:46:09] Alice: I have a list of about a thousand places, but Libya, Iraq, Libya and Iraq, I think are the two.
[00:46:17] Christine: What do you eat that immediately connects you to a place that you've been?
[00:46:21] Alice: Oh, that's a great question. What do I eat? Well, I guess. Uh, Oh, I, I've been to so many places. That's quite hard to answer. I mean, I think if I left Morocco, I think dates, I'm going to say dates because dates just cover a lot of the Middle East, North Africa.
[00:46:39] Christine: Yeah. And also taste like heaven in a way that dates don't taste in other places. Right. Who was a person that inspired or encouraged you to set out and travel the world?
[00:46:51] Alice: As well as my own family, I would say Freya Stark, who was a kind of World War One post, uh, female traveler in the Middle East [00:47:00] and whose books are amazing.
She just, honestly, this woman, she dressed up as a, you know, an Arab and was arrested by the French for spying and went into the valley of the assassins. And she did amazing things. And she was, again, like a very ordinary looking person. She just did it. Extraordinary woman.
[00:47:19] Christine: I would love to see a travel show or series.
I'm not sure what it looks like, but there's so many incredible women, adventures, explorers, early travelers, who you just can't believe their stories again because they've not usually been told. Uh, they were so stand out from what was happening in their day and time, but they are, they're so fierce and incredible.
[00:47:44] Alice: Yeah, they are. They are. And they, they definitely are inspirational and they definitely are role models for me. Freya Stark used to travel with a full dinner service. That's the way to do it.
[00:47:54] Christine: If you could take an adventure with one person, fictional or real, alive or past, who would it [00:48:00] be?
[00:48:00] Alice: So I'm a, I'm a fantasy nerd. I love Lord of the Rings. It was one of my formative books growing up.
And of course, you know, when I was 12, I was in love with Aragorn, son of Arathorn. So I would traverse the world with him. And I already know that he's very good at walking long distances and then fighting off trolls. He's the one.
[00:48:19] Christine: Perfect. You never know when you have to fight off trolls. In your travels.
The last question is soul of travel is a space for honoring women in the industry. Who is one woman that you would like to recognize in this space?
[00:48:34] Alice: Okay. I would like to recognize a wonderful woman she's Zina Ben Sheikh, and she is a Moroccan woman, and she is the head of marketing for Intrepid Travel, which is a massive travel group. She's the head for Europe, the Middle East and Africa. So, I love to see a Moroccan woman. Who's in that position. And she herself is a fabulous person, speaks about [00:49:00] 300 languages, terribly glamorous and terribly grounded.
And to me, what I love is when you see proper big companies, not just using, if you like a Moroccan woman in Morocco, but making it the head of marketing because of her fabulous skills. So she is one woman I would like to honor.
[00:49:17] Christine: Thank you so much. And I have had the privilege of, of interviewing her and she is Truly all the things that you said and like you said also so inspiring and impressive and passionate and also so real and relatable.
And yeah, thank you. It's very good to hear that recommendation coming.
[00:49:36] Alice: We chime, we chime, we chime on our are, are people we like. That's great.
[00:49:41] Christine: Yeah. Well, thank you again so much for the conversation, for reaching out. I'm so glad to have learned about you, to hear your story and to be able to share it here with my listeners.
Alice: Thank you for having me. I'm terribly sorry about the phone issues, but there's nothing I could do about them. Thank you.
You can find me on Facebook at Lotus Sojourns on Facebook, or join the Lotus Sojourns Collective, our FB community, or follow me on Instagram either @lotussojourns or @souloftravelpodcast. Stay up to date by joining the Lotus Sojourns mailing list. I look forward to getting to know you and hopefully hearing your story.
