Episode 186 - Ethical Content Series: JoAnna Haugen, Rooted
In this episode of Soul of Travel, Season 5: Women's Wisdom + Mindful Travel, presented by @journeywoman_original, Christine shares a soulful replay of her conversation with JoAnna Haugen as part of our Ethical Content Series.
JoAnna is a solutions-oriented writer, editor, and public speaker working at the intersection of sustainable travel, environmental conservation, and community-based advocacy efforts. She is also the founder of Rooted.
For more than a decade, she has written for and collaborated with publications, development organizations, and international brands to amplify people, projects, and news in an increasingly noisy world. Publishers and clients count on JoAnna to deliver engaging and accessible stories that impact their audiences.
An international volunteer and election observer, passionate world traveler, and permanent expatriate and global citizen, JoAnna produces work that tackles complex issues and empowers local communities.
An Introduction to Community-Based Solutions
JoAnna shares a poignant story of her time as a Peace Corps volunteer shortly out of college, where she was a public health volunteer in Kenya and found herself trying to navigate monsoon season as a passenger on a bus that got precariously stuck in the mud. She learned a valuable lesson about solutions based on community efforts when a group of men on her bus came up with a creative and brilliant solution to get the bus moving once again.
The Beginning of Rooted Storytelling
“The travel industry has been at the root of a lot of ill in this world; it has a huge negative environmental impact, um, that we're trying to address now. It has caused cultural exploitation and a lot of social stratification.”
Recognizing this, JoAnna founded Rooted, a solutions platform at this intersection of sustainable tourism. storytelling and social impact. JoAnna created Rooted to help people in the travel industry and content creators tell stories more ethically, more responsibly, and and more mindfully.
“If we actually want tourism to be a force for good, one way that we can do that is through storytelling.”
Christine shares a similar story in which she found connection and a sense of place, a new understanding of the world, and a feeling of belonging during her travels in Uganda.
Busting the Myth of “The Traveler Story”
JoAnna and Christine explore the recent boom in travel and how tourism and travel should not be dictating and affecting destinations to suit travelers. “Travel can and should be, the tourism industry can and should be woven within a community's fabric so that it adds value to the community as it exists,” shares JoAnna.
Running travel parallel to community needs and expectations in a way dictated by locals and their needs provides an opportunity to enhance and support sustainable development goals, she shares. “We have a way to amplify and elevate the work that locals are doing. We, as a tourism industry, are not forcing that hand.”
Storytelling and Conversations in Travel
JoAnna describes travel and tourism as communication and a conversation, encouraging travelers to be listeners first, becoming aware of how to take conversations one step further by asking questions and truly connecting with guides, accommodations owners, waiters, shopkeepers, and more.
For example, she shares, she would encourage travelers who are SCUBA diving to not only ask about the identification of a fish, but where the fish lives, what might be affecting the habitat, and how that fish might show up in the community.
Be natural; be open; seek out partnerships and equity in each of your travel experiences.
“We need to be really, really mindful about how our history and our belief system and the global systems within which we work and our personal perspective and bias is shaped, and how we bring that to the work we do.”
“We create solutions based on necessity and the tools that we have around us. And we, humanity, are facing some huge challenges in the world today. And we really need to be looking at local communities and local people and the solutions and the creative ideas they have to address these problems on the local level.”
Soul of Travel Episode 186 At a Glance
In this conversation, Christine and JoAnna discuss:
· The importance of partnering with local communities while traveling
· How to make tourism more valuable to local communities
· How to deliver engaging, respectful, and accessible travel stories
· How and why to lift one another up while doing the work of social justice
Join Christine now for this soulful conversation with JoAnna Haugen.
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Related UN Sustainable Development Goals
Sustainable Development Goal #5: Achieve gender equality and empower all women and girls.
Sustainable Development Goal #10: Reduce inequality within and among countries.
Sustainable Development Goal #12: Ensure sustainable consumption and production patterns.
Resources & Links Mentioned in the Episode
Visit Rooted to learn more about sustainable travel-related initiatives and responsible travel storytelling.
Connect with JoAnna on LinkedIn / Rooted’s Instagram / JoAnna’s Instagram.
About the Soul Of Travel Podcast
Soul of Travel honors the passion and dedication of people making a positive impact in the tourism industry. In each episode, you’ll hear the stories of women who are industry professionals, seasoned travelers, and community leaders. Our expert guests represent social impact organizations, adventure-based community organizations, travel photography and videography, and entrepreneurs who know that travel is an opportunity for personal awareness and a vehicle for global change.
Join us to become a more educated and intentional traveler as you learn about new destinations, sustainable and regenerative travel, and community-based tourism. Industry professionals and those curious about a career in travel will also find value and purpose in our conversations.
We are thought leaders, action-takers, and heart-centered change-makers who inspire and create community. Join host Christine Winebrenner Irick for these soulful conversations with our global community of travelers exploring the heart, the mind, and the globe.
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Soul of Travel Episode 186 Transcript
Women’s travel, transformational travel, sustainable travel, women leaders in travel, social entrepreneurship
Christine: Join me, Christine Weinbrenner Eyrich, for soulful conversations with my community of travelers, exploring the heart, the mind, and the globe. We might all agree that we are missing travel right now. These conversations highlight what tourism really means for the world. Soul of Travel honors the passion and dedication of the people making a positive impact in tourism.
Christine: In each episode, you'll hear the story of industry professionals and seasoned travelers who know travel is more than a vacation. It is an opportunity for personal awareness and it is a vehicle for change. We are thought leaders, action takers, and heart centered change makers. This is the soul of travel.
Christine: I am so grateful to be sharing this conversation on Soul of Travel today with Joanna Haugen. She is a writer, speaker, and a solutions advocate who has worked in the travel and tourism industry for more than a decade. She is also the founder of Rooted, a solutions platform at the intersection of sustainable tourism, social impact, and storytelling.
Christine: Through Rooted, Joanna responsibly documents, supports, celebrates, and shares community focused sustainable travel initiatives and helps others do the same. She is a returned Peace Corps volunteer, international election observer, and intrepid traveler. and currently resides in Kiev, Ukraine. It should be no surprise working in this space that Joanna is a gifted storyteller.
Christine: This conversation is filled with beautiful and powerful stories that convey the beginning of ROOTED, how we can better use tourism as a tool for change, making it more valuable to local communities. Amplify the voices of those being silenced in our world and the importance of lifting one another up. It is truly a gift every time I get to sit down with her.
Christine: I am inspired and learn so much and I know you will too. Join me now for my soulful conversation with Joanna Haugen.
Christine: Good morning and good evening, depending on where you're joining from today. Welcome to Soul of Travel. I am really excited to be sitting down with Joanna Haugen. And she is the founder of Rooted. Um, and I have been so excited to have come across This company and your platform during my social media searches, and then to connect and begin to kind of champion your efforts.
Christine: So thank you so much for being here today. And I would like to give you a moment to just share a little bit about your background and how rooted came to be.
JoAnna: Well, thank you so much for having me, Christine. I know, um, you know, I appreciate and really love that you said that you love championing, uh, championing my work.
JoAnna: That means a lot to me. I, um, and hi, hello, everybody who's joining us right now. I'm so thrilled to be calling in from Kiev, Ukraine, where I live. I am an American expatriate living overseas. And my journey to this place and to my brand rooted, um, started actually during monsoon season in a little tiny village in the Rift Valley of Kenya.
JoAnna: Um, I served as a Peace Corps volunteer shortly out of college and, um, like many folks, um, during the time that I graduated, I couldn't find a job. And so I ended up, um, Working as a public health volunteer in Kenya and on this particular day I was trying to get to town, um, a, our closest big city was called Thika and it was middle of monsoon season.
JoAnna: Finally a matatu, which is the, uh, the public vans, um, showed up in our village. The road was dry enough for us to get out supposedly, although it was awfully muddy to And as we were headed Um, down this hilly road, um, down, we'd slide down one side, up the other side, and it was a really precarious journey on these dirt, muddy roads, um, and the matatu I was in got stuck in the mud.
JoAnna: And, um, I remember thinking to myself, okay, I either have to walk several miles back in the month, this direction to the village or several miles, that direction to the tarmac. And neither option sounded very good to me. Um, and it just so happened that in the Matatu where several young men, and they didn't look at all concerned.
JoAnna: They opened the door and got out of the vehicle and looked around at what we had in the, you know, this. This jungle kind of area that we lived in is very lush and they broke off huge leaves from the banana trees. And they laid the leaves down in front of the wheels of the Matatu and they kind of pushed from behind.
JoAnna: They got the vehicle up onto these banana leaf wheels, uh, banana leaf, um, banana tree leaves. And then they proceeded to kind of like, Jump leapfrog in front of each other, putting the leaves down, then running to the back and putting the leaves down and the vehicle got unstuck. We started moving again. We reached the tarmac.
JoAnna: We got to town. And to me at the time, all I could think was, thank God, I didn't have to walk back to the village in all this mud. But looking back at it, um, that was such a pivotal point in my career. Because it was a really important lesson to me that, that we create solutions based on necessity and the tools that we have around us.
JoAnna: And we, humanity, are facing some huge challenges in the world today. And we really need to be looking at local communities and local people and the solutions and the creative ideas they have to address these problems on the local level. Because who better to solve the problems in our own communities and address our own than those people who are experiencing these things.
JoAnna: So that lesson in finding solutions and thinking about solutions from a local level really started my career in the travel industry, which then led to me Um, into, um, I actually started by working in the timeshare industry, uh, timeshare company. Most people don't know that, um, but that's where I started my communications work.
JoAnna: And then I went to work for myself. I was a consumer facing travel writer. Um, so I was, you know, traveling all over the world, meeting great people, having fantastic experiences, uh, burned out after about five or six years. And then I started working in the communication side on, um, uh, on the B2B side in the industry.
JoAnna: And in that, uh, those positions as well, I was doing writing and communications. And here's the thing. Here's what, here's how I got where I am today. And that is that all these jobs that I had, I could see. that there were incredible stories to be told, but the way that we're telling those stories and the language that we're using and the, um, the, the vehicles that we're using to tell those stories are incomplete.
JoAnna: Sometimes we're actually doing damage. When we tell the stories and use communication, and I really don't believe that travel writers and those working in the travel industry mean any damage. They don't want, they're not out to do damage, but the travel industry has been at the root of a lot of In this world, obviously, um, it has a huge environmental, uh, negative environmental impact, um, that we're trying to address now.
JoAnna: It has, um, caused, uh, cultural exploitation and, um, you know, caused a lot of social stratification. And so, uh, a little over a year ago, I founded rooted, which is a solutions platform at this intersection of sustainable tourism. storytelling and social impact. And my goal through rooted is to help those in the travel industry, like the content creators and travel writers and the tour guides and those working in destinations, learn how to responsibly use storytelling so that it is uplifting and empowering and amplifying these incredible Stories around the world in a way that is responsible and mindful and ethical and is actually doing far more good than harm in this world.
JoAnna: If we actually want tourism To be a force for good. This is one way that we can do that is through storytelling. And so, um, you know, it's this special solution space founded in this little tiny mud, uh, mud splattered, uh, experience of mine in Kenya and, uh, journey through the travel industry to, to get where I am today.
Christine: Thank you so much for sharing that because, um, as I said, I've been following your work and, uh, have loved seeing what you create, how you share it, um, your perspective and lens on storytelling and these solutions. Um, but I think that moment that you shared, uh, is really relatable and I love that for a broader context for people just like you.
Christine: I think a lot of times and part of what solo travel about is about to is inspiring people to find their way on their journey. And we often think that it's really clear, and we don't see like the truck and the banana leaves gets us to this. Brand that we've created. Um, and uh, so two things that are kind of funny about that.
Christine: I totally Relate resonate with the roads in kenya. I think I thought I was going to die in kenya many times on the roads And like driving and then all of a sudden being on a road that actually felt pretty good And then all of a sudden seeing vehicles just like divert from the road and being like out in the fields and going everywhere because all of a sudden the road just became nothingness.
Christine: And they would just like be like ants scurrying and then they would all come back together onto this road again. And then really being in the middle of nowhere and you had to have a truck. Um, speed bumps were like speed elephants. Like they were so huge. And in the night in the little villages where they build their own.
Christine: Um, you don't know what's coming and we would be like looking and driving so slow, hoping we wouldn't hit one and it would take out our vehicle. So, um, I loved that story just because it reminded me of that experience. And then also for me, as I reflect on my journey, soul of travel really, um, started in this hut in Uganda.
Christine: And it was really similar. It was, um, sharing space with women and hearing their stories and seeing their resilience and seeing this, uh, very similar, like this ability to solve their problems from their space. And I think that we often, especially if we're lucky to travel, we interact with these communities.
Christine: And if, um, And this is something we've talked about before, but if it doesn't seem like it lives up to what we believe might be this standard of ideal, we want to jump in and help. And really, If we just ask the community one what they need and two for the solutions that usually can just happen from that space organically without us needing to really jump in and do much of anything other than maybe provide resources or tools or support to something that might already be in motion.
Christine: Um, so I really loved all of those, um, those aspects. And then for me, I love storytelling as this. Because, um, that's also really aligned with what I do. I, I think travel in itself is storytelling of the world. Like, as we travel, we like, we unwrap the stories of the people and the land and the places and then internalize those and carry them with us.
Christine: So, um, I just. Love seeing how that all comes together and this alignment that we have in our hearts and the way that we show up in this space of travel and also kind of really get creative with um, Travel and i'll let you step in here in a moment, but i've been thinking a lot in my own business about When I first started, I actually kind of wanted to avoid the word travel, and it was really, I really wanted to connect people through each other's stories and shared experiences, and we happened to do it while traveling, but I didn't want people to just think of me as a travel person.
Christine: Company or a travel brand, but it was just really this tool for creating These relationships and experiences, but I wonder how um that resonates with you and um Travel really is this really valuable tool And it's almost as if it becomes something other than travel in that context. Does that make sense?
JoAnna: Yeah, well and and you know two two thoughts on that. Um, the first is that You I think actually one of the, the stories that we tell in travel is that it is traveler focused. Um, you know, that's the, it's focused on the people who are taking the journey. And because that is one of the tour, the tourism industry story, that it is traveler focused.
JoAnna: Um, I would actually argue that we need to bust that myth because tourism and travel need to be happening under the expectation, based on the expectations and, um, and, and under the invitation, if you will, of the people who live in the destinations where people travel. There has been a Especially prior to this pandemic, obviously, well, especially, you know, we are seeing this crazy acceleration of travel.
JoAnna: this terminology of overtourism and people were just, I mean, it was, it was quite frankly, it was out of control. And, um, and local people were feeling the heat. They could no longer afford the places that they used to live. They couldn't go to their local bars. You know, favorite cafe because they couldn't afford it.
JoAnna: They couldn't find a place to sit. Neighborhoods were completely gentrified. Streets were clogged with travelers who didn't understand the, you know, protocol of a destination. And so I really believe that the travel experience, it shouldn't be traveler focused. It needs to be, communities and destinations need to be focused on the local people first.
JoAnna: And then, um, travel can and should be, the tourism industry can and should be woven within a community's fabric so that it adds value to the community as it exists. Tourism and travel should not be dictating. destinations. They should not be molding destinations so that they suit travelers. That is traveler focused.
JoAnna: Um, it really needs to be Um, focused on the locals and then the tourism model can fit in around that. And, you know, this comes back to something that I think about a lot in my work and that is how does tourism fit into the sustainable development goals. And I think for far too long, we've been thinking about, um, tourism and travel as, you know, Working in a silo in conjunction to, um, you know, whatever is happening in a place.
JoAnna: And this is where it's running parallel to a community's needs and expectations. But if we can learn to weave tourism into a destination so that it's focused and dictated by locals and their needs, um, then we actually have an opportunity to enhance. Sustainable development goals. We have a way to support what communities are already doing.
JoAnna: We have a way to amplify and elevate the work that locals are doing. We're not, we as a tourism industry are not forcing that hand. We aren't dictating what it looks like. So, you know, it really resonates with me when you're, you know, you're talking about the, the hesitation to use the word travel. And I understand that because travel has kind of become a demonized word.
JoAnna: A lot of communities don't want anything to do with tourists. Um, and I appreciate why that is, but if we can find a way to, to weave the travel experience into what already is so that it enhances destinations. I think there's a lot of power there. And quite frankly, it has been, um, under appreciated and untapped.
JoAnna: And, and, and we have a huge opportunity now to work with destinations and, um, what their goals are to build back better and work within those goals to create a tourism ecosystem that I
Christine: think that that can be a thought process that is comes up against a lot of resistance. One, because especially working in the tourism industry, we don't want to hear that maybe it's not done well, right?
Christine: Because it's uncomfortable. We want, we don't want to think of ourselves in that light. And it is also sometimes hard to wrap our heads around why that is and what that looks like and what that feels like. And for me, it's also really hard to imagine So I've kind of grown up in tourism, I say grown up, but in this bubble where I have been really lucky to be aligned with people who have always had, um, like experiential, experiential travel, sustainable travel, responsible travel, like at the base and the core of their businesses.
Christine: And so I've only ever seen that modeled for me. And so I forget. Often that there's this whole other side of tourism, and then I'll head to a traditional travel show and like I'm bombarded by this other realm and there's like one row for these like conscious travelers and everything else is something that, um, I just don't understand because it's It's just not where my heart lies.
Christine: And I also know that makes up like 90 percent of the market and where travelers are getting their information and their inspiration and how they're experiencing the world. And so there is a huge effort for this community to really Amplify our voices. And so I think that's, again, um, so important, like you were saying, in, in how we show up and how we tell these stories and how we think about the way our words showcase destinations and the impact that that has, because there are so many people who are thinking from this space.
Christine: And that was also part of Soul of Travel is that I'm really blessed to know these people doing great work. And when the pandemic started, I just was crushed for them because so many of them are small businesses. And I just started to think that we're not going to make it out of this. Like, we don't have the capital, we don't have, um, you know, You know, the means to endure this for the long term.
Christine: And then I really saw that we are the people who can pivot. We can jump like that's what I had to do. Um, when I decided I could, I had to cancel all of my trips. I started this show to talk about. what other people were doing to support their tour operators, their guides, the non profits that they're working with.
Christine: Um, they created video series and informational, um, segments to still connect with their audience and keep the, the, the beneficial aspects of tourism rolling. And so, um, I, I really love this idea that We can use tourism as a tool for change and um, and really tying into that shared connection. Um, I think you and I both agree that that's one of the most valuable pieces of Of travel or just getting people to one another, um, is what it's about.
Christine: And that, um, also in terms of, for me, women, because I think it's so important that we see each other and we see each other. as we are, where we're from, with the container that we come with, you know, um, and those, uh, having those maybe challenging cultural conversations, which I've been so lucky to have, um, and it breaks down, like you were saying, some of those Um, those things that we carry with us and those beliefs that we have and our worldview and I would love for you to share a little bit more about how you see travel working in that aspect in creating understanding around, um, what it's like to be, uh, who we are.
Christine: where we are and you're so lucky to have traveled so much and not just traveled but lived. So you've actually gotten to experience being in a culture, which for me is my dream. Like I never want to go somewhere for two days or two weeks, like two months, two years. I want to have the opportunity to be amongst that community and really learn.
Christine: For me, that's what travel is about.
JoAnna: Well, and I think You know, you hit on it by saying that travel is a bridge. It is a tool that we can use to help bridge our differences. And, you know, I think as we look around the world today, there's so much emphasis on our differences, political differences. racial issues.
JoAnna: I mean, political, uh, actual political borders are geographical differences and those are emphasized. And when we emphasize those things, we really, um, we tend to forget. That at the base of everything in our deep, deep core, and not even that deep sometimes, we are all human. And even though we might have like different religious beliefs or political beliefs or whatever, I, I really believe that, um, we share a lot of very common values.
JoAnna: I think most people could agree that, um, they just want a better future for their children. I think most people can agree that when they walk outside, they want to feel safe. I, you know, and so we're talking about, you know, the, the, what is that? The Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right? We all have basic needs.
JoAnna: And I think we have an opportunity to bridge To bridge those differences by finding that shared human connection. And I love what you said about having um, kind of those hard conversations, those hard cultural conversations. Because I, I want to see more people in the travel context. I'm doing what I call complicating the narrative, and that is leaning into those things that are a bit more uncomfortable for us.
JoAnna: And again, this is one of those myths with tourism, that tourism and travel should be clean and comfortable and fun and, you know, it should be carefree. And that's even the way we package it, right? This is part of our story, part of tourism's story, is that it is a way to escape, it's a way to get away. Um, and so what that means is when a lot of people travel, they aren't having hard conversations because it's uncomfortable.
JoAnna: That is not escaping. That is not getting away. But I believe that in order for us to have truly meaningful, um, connections with people and the places that we go to, We need to be willing to lean into those uncomfortable conversations. Now, that doesn't mean, you know, we just strike up conversation about political things and religious things, and there's all kinds of, you know, cultural protocol or whatever that we need to be thinking about.
JoAnna: But like, when I, I think a lot, I spend a, probably way more time than I should thinking about the climate emergency. I worry about it a lot. It keeps, it literally keeps me awake at night. And, um, I worry, for example, that when travelers. Travel to a lot of destinations. They don't think much about the climate emergency or what their negative environmental impact is on a destination and a lot of tour operators aren't having those conversations with travelers.
JoAnna: But there, again, there's an opportunity. We all want to have access to clean, safe water to drink. So how can we start having those conversations about water usage and water scarcity and what that means for the local community in a way that involves the traveler in a meaningful conversation so that they can connect?
JoAnna: That part of the story in their life with that part of the story in the destination where they are, they're at and the people who are there. What does that mean to them? What does water mean to them? How did they use it? What, what keeps them awake at night about the water? Um, and that's just one example, but I, I, I want to see us using that.
JoAnna: These shared challenges and these shared beliefs to have hard conversations because we can't keep running away from the world's challenges simply by taking a trip. That does not do anybody any good. In fact, it does more harm than, um, than good at all. So, um, yeah, I think I, I love what you say about these, these hard conversations and, and starting to use those as a way to Um, uh, quite frankly, turn passive travelers into more aware and engaged global citizens.
JoAnna: That's where real change happens in this world.
Christine: Oh, I love that. I'm like, Oh, I just want that to be like on my wall. That was really beautiful how you worded that. Um, and I find myself saying that all the time and it's, uh, it's really validating to hear that it's not just in my heart, actually, that there's other people that think that way.
Christine: Right. And, um, Going back to the example of getting travelers engaged and getting them thinking in a different way, um, I actually use water as a tool as well because it's something that we're going to be interacting with every day, right? And as a traveler, it's something you, I think about, like, where am I going to get clean water?
Christine: I've definitely been really sick from drinking the wrong water. And so it's on top of mind. And, um, so now I, um, encourage travelers to bring, um, they're like a self contained water filter in a water bottle. And so then instead of just, you know, telling their travelers, this is a great product, you should bring it.
Christine: Why? Well, we don't want to be, you know, purchasing water in the country in water bottles because of the plastic. Like that's a really easy conversation we can start to think about. And then. Well, one, why pass that? What does it look like for that community when we come in and we're consuming the water that way and leaving that trash and how can they manage it?
Christine: Because we have this mindset, which is not actually really accurate either, but that we take our water bottle and we throw it in recycling and it magically gets taken care of, um, and that's a whole nother conversation, but when you go to. Some of these communities when you travel, for instance, um, well, I've been a lot of places where all of a sudden you see just, you know, the piles of trash and it will just be there forever and and they don't have a way to take care of it and they don't have the resources, especially when a large number of tourists.
Christine: Tourists start to inundate the area and bringing this additional trash with them. Um, and so it's a really relevant conversation. It's not hard. It's not abstract. This is the water you're going to be needing to drink it. Let's just like think about it. And then I loved what you said of inviting anyone from the community.
Christine: And, um, and again, you and I have had this, this privilege of seeing this happen. But when you're in Africa and you see people carrying water for hours. to bring it back to their families. Like that has forever changed the way I use water every time I do dishes and I can fill up my sink full of clean water and I could even think about this water is kind of dirty.
Christine: I would like to switch it over to cleaner water to clean my the rest of my dishes. I remember the day I spent with a friend and her Her way of doing dishes was out on a table in the middle of the yard in a little bucket, and that water I'm telling you was not clean by our standards for the amount of dishes that went through it.
Christine: And, um, it's just it really does change things. And then to be able to talk to her about like my experience washing dishes versus her experience, and it doesn't seem huge and yet it's so impactful. Um, so I love that, that idea. And I also think that's something every tour operator could bring into their business without changing their platform, without getting, you know, too much into it.
Christine: Your travelers are drinking water. And the people where you're traveling or drinking water. It's such an easy point to connect on.
JoAnna: And, and, you know, just to add on to that is one of the reasons why I'm such an advocate for using storytelling in, um, intentional and mindful ways is that it doesn't cost us anything more.
JoAnna: This isn't like a tool you need to buy. It's not something, you know, it's, it's not an extra cost. It's, it's a powerful resource that exists if we can learn how to use it in a thoughtful and responsible, responsible and mindful way. And, um, we're actually taking advantage of it. And I, that's the gap, right?
JoAnna: That's the gap that we were talking about at the beginning is, you know, instead of just saying, oh, Bring your own bottle. We don't want to use plastic, uh, water or, you know, plastic bottles, single use plastic bottles here, you know, learning how to use that story in an intentional way, when we travel, we're going to say it anyway.
JoAnna: So let's take the additional step and use it as a more meaningful learning opportunity. Now, all that said, none of this is like classroom science. You don't need to rehearse these things. And I, and I think that's part of the, the power of storytelling too. You just have to start learning to recognize these things in your daily operations.
JoAnna: You know, where are the opportunities where you can Take advantage of, for example, the waiter who's serving you at dinner and he's serving you a pitcher of water. I mean, is there just, it's just part of casual conversation. We, we are talking all the time. We are showing pictures. We are sharing graphs.
JoAnna: We're doing all this form of communication within our tours with people who are all around us all day long on our trips. And so, you know, learning to You know, you know what people are going to ask, you know who you're going to encounter, identifying the gaps, seeing the opportunities, and just like being aware of, oh, this is a great opportunity to take this conversation one step further.
JoAnna: It doesn't need to be You know, we're on page, you know, 87 of the script, this is what we say about water, you know, and that that's really, it can be subtle and it can be life changing for a traveler if done in a really savvy strategic way.
Christine: What would you say to, and I've heard this point raised, is that people are, consumers and travelers are looking at travel often as a form of escape, right?
Christine: Even if they are traveling, if they're to the point where they're seeking out more mindful or conscious experiences, however you want to label that container, um, They still want to relax and they still want to have a vacation. And as someone providing that experience, you might feel hesitant to be then like bombarding them with this.
Christine: educational experience. And I think that's the resistance I hear from some people is that they don't want to take that like magic and that relaxation away. They do want to provide this educational opportunity. And, you know, for travelers like you and me all day long, we'd prefer that, like, just keep giving it to us because we want to learn and grow and absorb this culture in this way.
Christine: Um, what would, what would that balance be? Or how do we make that more appealing? And I do think what you're saying, it's the storytelling because Then you're just telling a story and you take from it what you will.
JoAnna: Exactly, and so I have, I have two, kind of two different responses to your question. And the first one is, um, just being natural.
JoAnna: It's, it's just about having a, you know, the conversation. And, and one of my favorite stories about this has to do with a tour guide that that gives Glacier walki and as you know, people t this, they're not there f or whatever. That's not w for. They've signed up to glacier. But one of the t part of this conversatio their photos are looking landscape in front of them Um, you know, he knows wh to be saying, he knows th a sense of awe.
JoAnna: He knows taking photos. And so he he carries with him and h you know, this is what th when I was a child and li like, and it used to be r Way over there. Um, and, and inevitably somebody's like, wow, like, you know, that's a big difference. He says, Well, yeah, I mean, you know, this is a result of a warming world.
JoAnna: And okay, like, but that is a lesson, but it's just a conversation. He's using his story of his childhood, um, talking about being on the glacier with His dad or his parents. We can all have stories in our own lives about, um, you know, changing landscapes in our own lives too, like the little stream we used to go fishing in that that is now polluted or no longer has fish or whatever.
JoAnna: And so all he is doing is sharing this story about this is what it looked like when I was a kid and I was out here. People can. like bridge that gap on their own. Um, they understand what's going on there. And, you know, so they're still having a good time. They're still there to escape. They're still in beautiful, um, Iceland, but they're, you know, seeing, oh, this, this was just like 25 or 30 years ago.
JoAnna: This is a big difference, you know, and another great example is for example, people who love to go snorkeling or scuba diving. You Inevitably, you have somebody who says, what kind of fish is that? They want to know, what is that fish? And I had a marine biologist tell me once that he said, I would love to see more tour guides or dive instructors or whoever's leading those kinds of excursions say, Oh, that fish is an XYZ.
JoAnna: And then a lot of them stop. But what they should be saying is, Oh, that's an XYZ. And it lives in this kind of habitat. And then just provide a little bit more information. You're still enjoying your scuba driving trip. You are an engaged traveler. You're interested about in the landscape and the, in the habitat.
JoAnna: So it's just providing more context. Um, and you're still having a great time and nobody's stopping that, but you're actually getting more out of the experience. So, you know, in response to that question, I would say, I don't think anything's being taken away. You're just providing more story context to the experience.
JoAnna: So that's the first thing I would say. Um, and then the second thing about, uh, regarding how we can, um, help people have these, these kinds of experiences without feeling like they're being burdened by today's heavy challenges. This is one of the reasons why I would like to see more tour operators partner with or collaborate with destinations to find.
JoAnna: Um, social impact projects and initiatives and the destinations where they're working because there are, um, incredible social impact projects all over the world that are, um, addressing some of the world's most pressing issues, just like we were talking at the beginning of this conversation, and, um, these are, having these experiences and visiting these kinds of projects and initiatives are the opportunities where people really have that moment.
JoAnna: Thanks. You know, that moment. Um, so for example, there is a, um, a cafe in, um, I, I can't remember if it's in Nepal or, or India. I apologize for not remembering which of the two, but it's run, it's called Shiro's and it's run by a bunch of women who are acid attack survivors. This little cafe. It's a social impact project.
JoAnna: It supports these women who are have been outcast from society because they are acid attack survivors. It's not a tourist destination. It's not for travelers. However, you know, if a tour company, um, stops by and has a cup of tea or, you know, just incorporates it in there in, into the experience. Your travelers are learning about a cultural phenomena, something that is very specific to the area.
JoAnna: They're meeting, um, women who have been empowered to address the issue and they're supporting this project, uh, financially and probably by posting about it on social media and things like that. And for tour guides. Here maybe is, you know, the biggest like a hot thing. This is where the word of mouth. Um, marketing comes in.
JoAnna: All you have to do was take your travelers to this place. And then when they go home and start talking about their experiences. This is going to be the thing they remember. It's not, you know, taking the photo in front of the Eiffel Tower. That's, you know, that's the ticket off the list thing. But this is the experience.
JoAnna: This is the conversation to have. This is the moment they're going to remember. It's the story they're going to tell over and over again. That then comes back as a reflection on your really awesome, um, you know, experience that you've offered them. Again, you're not, you know, throwing the experience like as a lesson at them, you are opening the doors.
JoAnna: So they have an incredible experience and they will take from it what they want. Um, but by, by partnering and working and seeking out these kinds of experiences, And then, you know, being thoughtful and going that one step further, you create the conditions for incredible ripple effects of the power of travel.
Christine: That is why I travel are those moments and I love that you shared that experience and that's why I really intentionally build those into what I create because those are the moments I've taken away and the moments that have been those it moments that I will never let go of. And what I wanted to create was a company that intentionally put those into every experience.
Christine: Because it is so powerful and, um, and it is, it is interesting to do it in a way that you are just offering this experience, like you said. And then the storytelling component does come very naturally. And then I also ask my travelers to share, like, that's a part of what you do as a traveler. You take a sojourn with me is that your sojourn continues when you get home and Gather your community share what what happened for you on this experience?
Christine: because they do then that inspires them to travel or Maybe to consider doing something they wouldn't have done because they didn't see themselves as capable of having that type of experience Many people that would be really daunting to go to that cafe, right? And I wrote it down because I'm like, Oh my gosh, I'm absolutely going to figure out where that is because that's the kind of experience I want to have.
Christine: But, and then also some people don't even know this exists and they didn't know to seek this type of experience. So the more we tell these stories, which people resonate with more strongly than reading an itinerary or, um, just like, you know, So it is the human story and so of course we want to be a part of it.
Christine: So I agree like that's so powerful and and I fully believe that that can be added to any type of trip, even for a moment it doesn't have to be the whole trip but it's. Like you said, it's probably is going to be the thing that really sticks with them at the end of the day. But if it feels like too much, if you're someone who's creating experiences to just like, you feel like you're laying too much in there, just find one, one thing that really is impactful and shares that story.
Christine: Um, I feel like, We've only hit the tip of the iceberg for what I have wanted to discuss with you, which I knew would happen. Um, I really don't want to end this conversation without, um, diving into the work that you do to help people understand how to tell this story. And, um, you know, the thing that comes up for me when I think about this.
Christine: of how impactful these words are. And actually before I go there, this is totally unrelated and related. I started watching the morning show on Apple TV and it's about journalism and they show kind of like all these dark parts of it, but they really talk a lot about the words and the responses of the listener and how it shapes their perception and how the people who are creating those words are creating the reality.
Christine: And so I think travel started, travel writing especially, started as kind of this Light profession. Actually, it didn't. I had a guest on who talked about philosophers and early travelers, and it actually was very scientific, right? But it has evolved into this, like, telling pretty stories, packaging this shiny package.
Christine: Um, getting you excited about being out in the world in this very light way. Um, but, We have the ability to shape how people are seeing the world and how they're going to step out into the world and not be, um, out there for their Instagram selfies, but to be a part of the community. So can you share, um, what that looks like for you and especially for people who are like.
Christine: are interested in this, who are piqued, who haven't thought about how their words are impacting the way people are reading them and the story that they're actually telling. Um, what does that look like for, for learning more and kind of taking that to the next level?
JoAnna: Yeah. So, you know, I mentioned that part of my journey was working as a commercial facing travel writer.
JoAnna: And I mentioned that I. Got burnt out and one of the reasons for that is exactly like what you are saying travel writing has uh incredible Power that is not being recognized and not being um fully Appreciated. I also think that a lot of today's travel writing is actually And I say that because, um, a lot of it is done based on desk research, um, press trips that are very curated.
JoAnna: Um, they are done with kind of a predetermined lexicon of pretty words that we use. I mean, because like we've talked about, travel is, you know, Sanitized and it's a way to get away and escape and all these things. And so travel writing reflects that. So there's kind of this, um, circular model. We have travel media like publications that are running.
JoAnna: Um, under, uh, being, being financed by, um, destinations and stuff that have this picture of how they want to be portrayed. Travel writers are working to meet those needs, um, and they don't want to complicate the narrative like we've talked about. And editors don't want us to do that. Therefore, travel writers are using, um, some very common article formats and common terminology that is actually not only, um, harmful, especially to marginalized people or people who have been marginalized.
JoAnna: Um, and historically silenced, um, but it lacks historical and cultural context and it, um, and it, it looks harmless. It feels harmless because it looks pretty and it feels pretty. But the problem is that when readers get their hands on, you know, these 800 words that are paired with one headline and one photo, All the things that are not appearing on that page are the writer's, um, inherent bias and perspective.
JoAnna: Um, their financing models, like how they got to where they were going. Um, how their privilege may have impacted who they were able to speak to and whether that person or those people felt safe speaking to them, um, where they were given access to and what that access looked like for them, um, what the information was that they were given about this place, how much, um, background research they did to fully understand the historical and cultural context.
JoAnna: Um, what the layer of, uh, colonization and historic oppression looks like, where they traveled, and how that is, um, how that colored both what they choose, chose to write, and how they wrote it. So there is so much extra stuff, all that baggage that we bring to the words that we use and the way that we use them.
JoAnna: The imagery that we pair with those, the headlines we use, these, the way we tag things on social media. Um, and. In everything that we say, there's so much more that goes unsaid. And it's all that stuff that is unsaid that your reader or your social media, uh, media follower never knows about. And so they're making all their decisions, um, on what is right in front of them.
JoAnna: It impacts where they travel, how they travel, how they will act. Um, their behaviors and actions once they've landed somewhere, their expectations. Um, I mean, we don't think much about the words we use and yet they have so much influence, especially in travel related writing. Where the, where the, the, um, the repercussions are so big.
JoAnna: And I say that because there's a large financial investment when somebody decides to take a trip. So there's a huge financial, like, um, uh, baggage on top of an article. Then you have the way that local people are going to be treated and. Uh, the way that people are going to understand the history and culture of a place, the way that people will, um, treat the environment.
JoAnna: Um, both to their destination and while they're in a destination. And so all these things are tied into the way that we communicate and the stories we tell. Um, you know, and, and, and that's not just for travel writers, like commercial travel writers for magazines, but that's also. You know, in the industry, it's, it's what we write on our websites.
JoAnna: It's what we put in our press releases. It's in the communication that we send to prospective travelers. It's what we put in our social media posts. We're telling stories all the time in the travel industry. Uh, we need to be really, really mindful about. Um, what, how, how our history and our belief system and the global systems within which we work and our personal perspective and bias is shaped and how it is shaped, how we bring that to the work we do, we cannot, um, you know, just, I, I, I can't write off the fact that I am a white woman of privilege.
JoAnna: But what I can do is bring that with me to my work and be aware of it every time I sit down to write and communicate. Um, and, and I can't write myself out of my story and I don't want to write myself out of my story, but I need to be aware of how my story impacts the story I am sharing with other people.
JoAnna: And that is, um, that's really where we need to be thoughtful about the word choice we use. imagery we're choosing, um, how the words and those images, when they're combined, how are they actually going to be read? Because the influence they have is phenomenal.
Christine: I just want to really reiterate the awareness component of that because someone who might be listening, um, especially if you, um, aren't a seasoned traveler or depending on where you're at in your journey, um, that was a lot, right?
Christine: That's a lot. It's a lot to consider. Sorry. No, it's. It's beautiful. I love it. I, I, I think it's so important. But what that does, and it's similar conversations when you look at, you know, you know, greening your business or creating more sustainable ventures, like all of these things, it's, it's a lot. And we really want, the more you understand, the more you realize it's.
Christine: that it's not easy. Like, there's all these rippled effects that happen. Um, but I think it comes to, first, the awareness that this is true. And from that awareness, you're just going to act differently. And you might not know how to Bring all of these components into your business and implement them and you're not going to make all the right choices every single time But if you have that awareness and that intention you're going to be moving forward from a different space That is going to have a different effect.
Christine: And so I just don't want anyone to be discouraged by All of those components and think that they can't even begin to manage to, to do that because they can and, and just listening to this and just internalizing it for a moment will actually create a shift for them, whether they realize it or not. And so I don't, I don't want that to be lost on anyone that, that they wouldn't be able to do that.
Christine: Um, because it is, it's a lot. And I think about it all the time because I am very aware of it. And, um, I constantly will read something and then like put on a different hat and be like, Oh, that's not what I meant. Um, or, you know, that wasn't how I wanted to tell that story. I wasn't thinking about this component.
Christine: Um, and it's, it is difficult, but it's also really beautiful because it's getting you to think in all these different ways, which for me is one of my favorite things to be able to do.
JoAnna: Yeah. You know, and I, I would say too, you know, just as we are providing the way and the means for our travelers to have a journey.
JoAnna: Our journey through the tourism profession. I mean, that's a journey too. We're always learning. We're unlearning. We're relearning. We're, you know, tweaking our tours. We're, we're changing the way that we're promoting things. It's all a learning curve. Um, you know, these are just, it's just some, like you've said, it's just something else to be aware of.
JoAnna: You know, it's, it's It does matter. Um, but it's a journey. And so I would say, you know, be aware of it and and also have fun on that journey while you learn to, you know, to use storytelling in a more powerful and meaningful way in your work because you have the power to tell stories. You've been telling stories your whole life.
JoAnna: Your, your world is filled with stories. Now it's just a matter of learning how to tap into them in a way that really accelerates your business in a, in a more meaningful and powerful way.
Christine: Yeah, thank you. I love that too, because, uh, it's been so interesting to see, like, this rise of storytelling, marketing, and, and, you know, branding with your story, and as if stories, um, just arrived.
Christine: Um, and it's, it's really the only way we know how to be in the world. Like, it's the only, the only thing that has ever happened consistently is that we've been immersed in stories. Um, and so it's really the most natural thing. And so, and the most powerful. So I really appreciate Um, your perspective on how this can be, uh, really utilized in travel and like you said, bridging that gap and being that kind of that missing tool that we can use in so many different ways.
Christine: Um, I really have no desire to wrap up this conversation at all. Um, so hopefully we can come back and maybe dive into some of these other. points that I had on my list that I really wanted to talk about, um, but in the sake of time we'll probably wrap up here. Um, I am going to bring in my fun little rapid fire that I need to rename because they're never rapid fire questions.
Christine: Um, but just. Give a little bit of a lightness at the end of our conversation And also let people get to know you as a traveler and then also just inspire them through some of these questions. So, um, there's seven. And the first one is what is your favorite book or movie that offers you an escape or inspires you to adventure?
JoAnna: Um, oh gosh, I am a voracious reader. And so that's a, that's a tough one for me, but what I'll, I'll just share one book that I read last year that I think, um, Really fired me up. It was called humankind and it was by a Scandinavian gentleman. I can't remember his name, but it really reinforced this idea.
JoAnna: I'm a big believer in optimism and hope in our world. And so all this book humankind. It was just released last year. That's the one that really fires me up when I think about getting back on the road again.
Christine: Um, what is always in your suitcase or your backpack?
JoAnna: I always, I always bring like my own tote bag and, and, uh, and my own water bottle.
JoAnna: I mean, that's not really exciting, but it's true. It's, it, I don't pack heavily. So, um, yeah, just small, just. Small reusable thing.
Christine: Those are valuable things though. Those are learned things to bring. I always have those two things as well. Um, and airplane socks, which my kids think are crazy, but I always have airplane socks.
Christine: Yeah,
JoAnna: that's the, that's, I use my little slippers for that, for that. Yeah.
Christine: Um, what is your favorite destination?
JoAnna: Um, I took a trip to the Cook Islands, uh, several years ago and that was a place I will never, uh, Never forget. It was spectacular. It's in it. You know, it's one of those places that I kind of don't want to go back to because I don't want to tarnish the memory of that trip.
Christine: Um, where do you still long to visit?
JoAnna: I've always wanted to go to New Zealand. I, um, I'm, uh, I'm a long distance hiker and I love outdoor activities. So I've, I would love to, to go to New Zealand. Although I don't think I would ever go zorbing. It's, I would, it's Calvary getting those big plastic balls.
JoAnna: That's yeah. That's, that's not really my, um, that's not my cup of tea, but I'd go hiking.
Christine: Yeah, that sounds terrifying. I would like my feet on the ground. And I have a book recommendation that I'm going to send to you in the context of New Zealand that I think you would like. Um, let's see, what do you eat that immediately connects to you to a place you've been?
JoAnna: Oh, chapati.
Christine: Um, who was the person that inspired or encouraged you to set out and explore the world?
JoAnna: My dad. Uh, yeah, I used to travel with my dad, um, on business trips, like day long business trips before I was three and you could travel for free and there was like no big security or whatever. Uh, so my dad from a very young age and he also, um, took us on summer vacations around the United States.
JoAnna: And, uh, that's where I learned my love for the outdoors and, and, and just traveling in general.
Christine: Um, and the last one is if you could take an adventure with one person fictional or real past or alive, who would it be?
JoAnna: Um, I mean, it's going to be a boring one, I suppose, but I would say I, I, I love to travel with my husband.
JoAnna: It's just, he's my favorite travel partner. We're very compatible together when we travel. And so, um, I know I have this whole big, um, option, you know, all these options, but honestly, I, I just, I know it's always going to be a good trip when he's by my side.
Christine: Excellent. Well, you couldn't ask for more than that.
Christine: So, yeah. Um, well, again, uh, thank you so much. Like I said, there's so much more. Um, anybody who's listening, I really, really encourage you to check out Rooted Storytelling, to find Joanne on LinkedIn. Um, I have learned so much just by for being in the periphery and following, um, your social media and have been inspired and, and it's really just meant something to me to be a part of that conversation, even from the outside.
Christine: And, um, one day I really hope to be able to take your writing program so that I can just learn more and enhance how I show up in that space. So thank you for being here today and sharing the work that you do.
JoAnna: Thank you so much, Christine. Your words are so kind. I, I am, uh, you know, so privileged to, to know you as well.
JoAnna: So thank you for having me on, on your program. And, um, thank you for, um, you know, all these amazing conversations that we've had so far. I know we have lots more to have.
Christine: Thank you for listening to Soul of Travel. I hope you enjoyed the journey. If this sounds like your community, welcome! I'm so happy to connect with you. You can find more about the ways you can be a part of the Soul of Travel and Lotus Sojourn community at www. lotussojourns. com. Here you can find out more about Soul of Travel and my guests.
Christine: You can also find the Lotus Sojourns I Guide for Women, as well as my current book Sojourn, offering an opportunity to explore your heart, mind, and the world around you. through the pages of books specially selected to create a unique journey. You can find me on Facebook at Lotus Sojourns and join our community, the Lotus Sojourns Collective, or follow me on Instagram either at Lotus Sojourns or Soul of Travel Podcast.
Christine: Join the Lotus Sojourns mailing list. I look forward to getting to know you and hopefully hear your story.
You can find me on Facebook at Lotus Sojourns on Facebook, or join the Lotus Sojourns Collective, our FB community, or follow me on Instagram either @lotussojourns or @souloftravelpodcast. Stay up to date by joining the Lotus Sojourns mailing list. I look forward to getting to know you and hopefully hearing your story.