Episode 187 - Ethical Content Series: Elisa Spampinato, Traveller Storyteller
In this episode of Soul of Travel, Season 5: Women's Wisdom + Mindful Travel, presented by @journeywoman_original, Christine hosts a soulful conversation with Elisa Spampinato.
Elisa is passionate about travelling and people. Amazed by the richness of cultures and beauty that our world still retains, she is a profound believer that Tourism can be a crucial tool for positive change in the world. Supporting and promoting Community-Based Tourism and a respectful and sustainable tourism around the world is her fundamental mission.
Through her professional services as a community storyteller, sustainability consultant and independent travel advisor, she contributes to building a really Sustainable Tourism both by working towards making changes in this industry from within and by supporting Community-Based Tourism experiences at the grassroots level. She holds a robust academic background in Sociology, Anthropology and Production Engineer, which has been the result of her thirst for learning and her determination to make a positive impact with her presence in the world, personally and professionally.
Finding a Purpose in Community-Based Tourism and Storytelling
Like so many in the tourism industry, Elisa shares that tourism found her. She engaged in research in urban tourism in Rio de Janeiro, where she discovered the multiple layers of stories and experiences within the six favelas in her study. Her dissertation would later become a book.
Elisa found that her interests, passions, and social justice–from anthropological studies to culture and economic development–could come together through travel storytelling. She began engaging in social projects with NGOs and international corporations, where her role as a leader in ethical and responsible tourism would grow.
What is Community-Based Tourism?
Elisa shares that in Brazil, “Community-based tourism has a very strong political connotation because it's used as an instrument and a tool to affirm the identity of local minorities or cultural minorities.” In short, identities and roles are continuously reinforced through the tourism industry.
Elisa and Christine discuss the definition and growing reach of community-based tourism as an alternative and more equitable approach to traditional tourism. In this model, “the community is in charge of the co-design,” Elisa shares. The community does not simply passively receive support or funds; members instead have an active role in making decisions, building connections, and creating sustainable practices.
Traveller as Storyteller
“The story is the way we learn about the world,” explains Elisa. Stories from the perspective and very voice of host communities which share cultural experiences, true connection, and budding relationships are more valuable than ever. “When we talk about a cultural experience, being and spending time in the community,” this is the most valuable type of travel story. Community-based tourism welcomes these deeper connections, while stories can help create the bridge between experiences and understanding.
When potential travelers read these stories, they even become more prepared to have a kinder, more compassionate and more understanding approach to travel.
Even more effective–and the foundation of Traveller Storyteller–is connecting individuals directly. When travelers and host community members build connections, more empathy is possible. “And through the story of another human being, you can maybe start to understand what her or his community is, the dimension, the context.”
“Community-based tourism allows you to have a deep experience, because it’s not filtered. If you don’t tell the story, this becomes isolated, so the experience is available, but the tourists can’t get there. Storytelling in particular can help to create this bridge.”
Soul of Travel Episode 187 At a Glance
In this conversation, Christine and Elisa discuss:
· How the work of community tourism helps people tell a story of two-way engagement
· The power of asking questions to find better questions
· Elisa’s powerful Community Storytelling workshops
· How ethical and responsible storytelling helps to break down stereotypes
· Ways to cultivate the stories of people and communities
Join Christine now for this soulful conversation with Elisa Spampinato.
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Related UN Sustainable Development Goals
Sustainable Development Goal #3: Ensure healthy lives and promote well-being for all at all ages.
Sustainable Development Goal #8: Promote sustained, inclusive and sustainable economic growth, full and productive employment and decent work for all.
Sustainable Development Goal #9: Build resilient infrastructure, promote inclusive and sustainable industrialization and foster innovation.
Resources & Links Mentioned in the Episode
Learn more about Elisa and Traveller Storyteller here.
Follow Elisa and Traveller Storyteller on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
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Soul of Travel honors the passion and dedication of people making a positive impact in the tourism industry. In each episode, you’ll hear the stories of women who are industry professionals, seasoned travelers, and community leaders. Our expert guests represent social impact organizations, adventure-based community organizations, travel photography and videography, and entrepreneurs who know that travel is an opportunity for personal awareness and a vehicle for global change.
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Soul of Travel Episode 187 Transcript
Women’s travel, transformational travel, sustainable travel, women leaders in travel, social entrepreneurship
Christine: Thank you for joining me for soulful conversations with my community of fellow travelers exploring the heart, the mind, and the globe. These conversations highlight what travel really means for the world. Soul of Travel honors the passion and dedication of the people making a positive impact in tourism.
Christine: Each week I'll be speaking to women who are tourism professionals. world travelers and leaders in their communities. We'll explore how travel has changed them and how that has rippled out and inspired them to change the world. These conversations are as much about travel as they are about passion and living life with purpose, chasing dreams, building businesses, and having the desire to make the world a better place.
Christine: This is a community of people who know travel is more than a vacation. It is an opportunity for personal awareness, and it is a vehicle for change. We are thought leaders, action takers, and heart centered change makers. I'm Christine Weinbrenner Eyrich, and this is Transcript. is the soul of travel.
Christine: Elisa Spampinato is a writer and trains others in storytelling for community based tourism. These are stories that connect us at a grassroots level, stories that educate and create connection. Elisa does this work through her business, Traveler Storyteller, where she is connecting travelers with traditional, indigenous, urban, and rural communities around the world.
Christine: In our conversation, we talk about the power of storytelling to As well as the importance of asking who is telling the story. Historically, the travel story that is told is very sanitized. It reinforces a power hierarchy and creates conditions for an extractive relationship. Elisa shares how her work helps us to tell a different story.
Christine: It allows for two way engagement that is not as extractive. She and I both love asking questions and believe it isn't always about finding the answer, but about finding a better question. Join me now for my soulful conversation. With Elisa Spampanado.
Christine: Welcome to Soul of Travel. I am very excited today to be joined by Elisa Spampanado. And we had the pleasure of connecting in the Transformational Travel Council in the space of that. And so. I feel like every conversation that has come out of that connection and community has been really treasured. So I'm excited today for everyone to join us and to hear about you.
Christine: For those of you joining, um, Elisa is a writer and trains others, um, in storytelling focused on community based tourism. And these are stories that really connect us at a grassroots level and are stories that are meant to both educate and create connections. So, I'm so happy to bring this to you. Subject and this conversation to still of travel.
Christine: So welcome.
Elisa: Thank you, Christine. I'm pleased to be being invited to these, uh, to your podcast. And, uh, I know since we, we met, I met a great friend of the TTC and then, uh, your, our connection is, um, Like back, uh, doing the first lockdown. So I treasure this connection that were so distant in a moment. So intense.
Elisa: So I thank you. I'm very happy to be here and to share part of my work, my experience and with the hope to inspire and create some thought, some reflection on the subject. So Very happy to be here.
Christine: Yeah. And I definitely invite people and I know we'll, we'll probably address this, but much of this process, like you said, is, is about creating awareness, like setting up questions that we need to ask ourselves and ask of others.
Christine: And so this is a very, I think should be a very thought provoking, um, conversation and, um, one that is really okay to not walk away with answers, but to walk away with questions. So we'll just set that stage.
Elisa: Absolutely. So this is a time to, to ask ourself questions, probably new kind of questions to get new answers.
Elisa: So this is the right time for humanity, I would say in the tourism industry in particular. So, yeah.
Christine: Well, as we begin our conversation, I would love to hear from you. Kind of what was your journey that brought you into travel or how, how did travel find you? And then, um, and then a little bit about your work and then we'll explore that more as we work through our conversation.
Elisa: Brilliant. Perfect. Thank you. So I haven't started in tourism actually. My background is, um, is in anthropology and social science. I'm a sociologist. And, um, I've been, I got involved with, um, international cooperation with a social project at the grassroot level. I went to Brazil to finish my first master and then I do another master in Brazil and I stay there for a few months.
Elisa: And where that. Uh, then when I met tourism, tourism found me in a way, because I discover communities in a very, uh, special environment in a way, because usually we think about traditional community in rural area. The first time I met community involved with tourism. In urban urban environment in the in the city of Rio de Janeiro.
Elisa: So and I I decided to do my my research my dissertation on slum tourism because I found this so fascinating because there there was only aspect that was working on the local development, the cultural issue, the tourism came, but we're very different different ways. So sometimes was very exploitative and destructive and Other times, in other cases, with actually something coming up from the grassroots.
Elisa: And I heard at the time, ah, slum term is bad. So I usually try to avoid the one direction answer, or fit for, fit for all. And I thought, oh, here there is more. Let me dig in. And I started, you know, exploring different favelas in Rio de Janeiro. And I studied, I did a case study of six. And at this time, dissertation became a book years later.
Elisa: Um, so that is the way I found tourism or tourists found me because I found it was a space where I could, uh, all my interests and my passion were coming together. So the anthropology studies though, the culture, the economic development and self empowering of the community and community based tourism. So I found very interesting.
Elisa: Then I start working with it in Brazil with different kind of community. And then I went back to London and, uh, Apart from a big parenthesis where I was teaching Tai Chi, actually, for a while, I was a instructor of Tai Chi and Qi Gong, then I go back to, to tourism and community based tourism. From a different perspective, so I, I, My journey with tourism was also different because I started from university.
Elisa: I started engaging, uh, in nine projects, social project, initially just within local NGO or international corporation on the side. And then he went to, when I moved to London, especially I was volunteering with tourism concern. So more campaigning awareness for pro or ethical tourism and responsible tourism.
Elisa: I'm talking about 1011. And then I had that, uh, gap. But then I go back in 2016, I get involved with the GSTC, became a member, did a lot of things, but from a different perspective and until I decided to go into the trade, because I was ending up talking also always with people that I agree with me in terms, yeah, tourism can be exploited, but also can be supportive, can give value and space and help in the women empowerment and all the local level of men.
Elisa: Cultural conservation, environmental protection. But when, how? Because the big change weren't happening, it was becoming frustrating. So I say, okay, now we have to move in another space. So that's why I ended up working in communication and marketing. And me, as an anthropologist, I never thought I'm going to end up working in marketing somehow.
Elisa: I'm not a marketer, but I, I work with local communities. So I support them to tell their own story.
Christine: and
Elisa: define the space on an international, uh, and global level, uh, where usually space there aren't for different reasons. So, yeah, that's why, that's what I do apart from telling the story because, uh, when I first moved to London and I realized that in places where we were talking about ethical tourism and responsible tourism, these stories, that this project that I met in Brazil weren't there.
Elisa: So I say, There was a big gap here and it's a language barrier, it's a cultural barrier, it's the lack of marketing, a lack of contact to say, okay, so the story kind of asked me to be told. So I start telling the stories first in some blogs, Tourism Concern, um, also Quality in Tourism, which I'm an associate and I carry on.
Elisa: And I decided in the lockdown, Okay, I have to do this. This should become the main part of what I do the and then yeah, that's why and then things is my journey still continue. But what I do is this I tell the story of local community with them. So with an ethnographical approach rather from here. Yeah, about them.
Christine: Yeah, I love that. And I mean, I think your story actually is really representative of a lot of people that I speak with that kind of really find themselves or tourism finds them because they're out there engaging with the world and and it's just for me what I say a lot of times is that travel is less about going someplace and more about Unwrapping and staring, sharing the story of the world with others.
Christine: And like, that's, that's how I perceive travel is this way for me to show this beauty and this story and people with others. And so, and I also have a background in sociology and I, so I really understand that perspective. I think it immediately drops us into this. This space of being people focused and being culture focused and starting to ask those same questions that you found yourself asking.
Christine: And then, you know, you said it's interesting. You find yourself working in marketing, but really, as Someone with your academic background who is really able to tell those stories and we start seeing marketing shifting towards this storytelling model. Like it 100 percent makes sense now. I'm sure like as you follow the breadcrumbs, it doesn't make sense.
Christine: But then when you look at it from a wider lens and what I would love to do here to, um, Begin this conversation is really start to understand some of these things that started coming your way. You mentioned you were working in responsible tourism and you found yourself kind of like seeing these disconnects between place and people.
Christine: But I would like to help people understand more, um, for instance, what does community based travel mean to you and why is that focus so important?
Elisa: Yeah, thanks for the question. Um, it's a very valid question because, um, it can mean different things in different places. So is, uh, This is because what we talk, for example in Brazil, community based tourism has a very strong political connotation because it's used as a, used literally as an instrument, as a tool to affirm the identity of local minorities or cultural minorities.
Elisa: to affirm their identity. And then so they use this term to talk about something that I will tell you in a second because I, I kind of absorb it from Brazil, from Latin America. While in Asia, this term might mean something slightly different. Now, Even though if you call it community tourism, community based tourism, community led tourism, what we all agree, and right now we have, uh, also the big, um, tour operators, the leader, world leaders, um, tour operators of, uh, solo independent travel, like, um, G Adventures and Intrepid, they're using this term.
Elisa: So something that, uh, is becoming more, we've become more familiar with. So when we talk about community tourism, okay, community based in the case I use it, is when there is two, let's say two pillars. One is fundamental, the second can be or not be there. The first is that the community has to be the protagonist.
Elisa: So meaning the community is in charge of the co design or design, design of the experience is the one that get the profit. Is the one that manages, is the one that, um, is in charge of, uh, development. So is, uh, it's not just, uh, the community is not receiving passively tourists because some others brought them there.
Elisa: And that, they'd be given some pennies, let's say, as a, as a thanks. No, it's the other way around. It's a grassroots, bottom up kind of, uh, Experience, of course, we can't say 100 percent designed by that because sometimes it's just a co design, depends on the case. But the most important thing, the profit goes there to the community, mainly.
Elisa: And then the, the tool operator that helped to build that connection, they take is the other way around, right? That a model that used to run. So the other pillar, which I think is really important and not always unfortunately is possible to have is, uh, the tourism is, uh, just a complementary activity, it's not the main activity.
Elisa: This is because these create that independence. So tourism, as I said, as I used earlier, the word used by community, yes, community, when they are strong, they're strong in themselves as identity, they know who they are, they want what, they know what they want. They are aware that tourism is a risk, put at risk their own culture, their own roots, if become the main activity, if the tourism, so the money, the profit from tourism become the only goal, is Because we've seen in the past, and many communities are aware of this, they risk, they will risk to lose their identity.
Elisa: So they don't want to do that, and no one should aim to build a project where we'll destroy or leave on the side all the traditionalist activities. Now, seeing that sometimes, in some cases, Tourism became the main activity because it was the way that the community used to survive or depend in some case of indigenous community, um, because they have no land, they had to add the income from tourism to help support their own, uh, existence.
Elisa: But all the community, they are aware of themselves, that they know Their history and they know what tourism can be. They don't want tourism to be the only activity because it's a contradiction. We want to visit the community because the community has a history as a, as a lifestyle. Traditional activity can, might change during the year because of climate change, because of different, uh, distribution of land, et cetera.
Elisa: But at the end of the day, tourism comes. After, as to support and, uh, share what they are, which means all the traditional activity they're involved with, and they don't want to really lose. And sometimes there is actually help them to rediscover those activity and, you know, help in the cultural conservation.
Elisa: There are many examples of this.
Christine: Yes, I mean, I think it's really important to understand that at the base of community tourism is either this collaboration or community driven focus of what is actually happening there. And so, you know, as you mentioned, in a lot of places, this outside, Force is coming in and describing and controlling what tourism looks like and then also through that really leading where the money goes and In the traditional tourism model in these communities, most of the tourism dollar doesn't stay in that community.
Christine: So, like you said, this focuses on really ensuring that these communities receive the economic benefit first. And then the other thing that you said there that I think is so important, especially as we've seen through the, this COVID pandemic, is that We don't create a model where communities are so dependent on tourism that the loss of tourism is detrimental.
Christine: And, I mean, we've seen that happen greatly over the course of the last two years. And so I think it's really, really important to examine how those structures have been put into place and asking the questions of How do we create a more self sustaining model? What are, what are we asking of these communities?
Christine: What can they create and then build upon that we can enjoy with but not for the sole intention of tourism? And so it's been really interesting because I, I have seen through the communities, some of the communities that I work with Where tourism has, you know, been inaccessible over the whole course of this time, tourists might not still be returning for, I don't know, you know, an untold amount of time still to some of these rural communities and things like they're creating, um, regenerative agricultural practices that.
Christine: Are very fundamental to these communities, but in the future, this might be a really interesting way to create a cultural connection where we can go in and see these projects that they've created. Understand more like farm to table cuisine or how this kind of small, you know, suburban farming was created like that.
Christine: As a tourism experience is something that's much more representative of the destination and is community led and has a greater purpose for the community than say a traditional performance or something like that, that is, like you said, is much more extractive and isn't really kind of loses its actual true connection to the destination.
Christine: So, um, thank you for sharing that because I think that that is very helpful to understand. The other thing that I would love to look at is why storytelling is so important. Um, and I know when we've talked in the past, you've mentioned because it is so immediate, it's such an easy way to create a connection.
Christine: As humans, we understand stories, like we are storytellers, right? This is how history has been shared over the course of, of, of our time. And things like poems and songs are ways that we. We remember the stories and share the stories. So why is it important to tell these stories and what, what does this create?
Christine: What does this allow for?
Elisa: Yeah, thanks for the question. Yes, we are all storytellers. We, our brain is made to absorb storytelling. The story is the way we learn about the world we, we, we connect, we understand the world and we live so since ever. So, this tells you a lot about what the instrument, powerful instrument is, but when we talk about communities even more important because it comes.
Elisa: This aspect that these stories, most of these stories are not, uh, visible and doesn't mean that they're not going to exist, but if they're not told, of course, from the eyes to the eyes of the tourist are inexistent, right? And these are the stories that are more value, they represent more value to those stories that really want to ever an authentic experience.
Elisa: And I use this word with, uh, with, uh, with the times, because I know that it's been overused. But when we talk about a cultural experience, to me, being and spending time in the community, urban or rural, um, modern or, or, or traditional is the most direct way to experience that community. Being, sorry, that culture, being with the people from the community, spending time with them.
Elisa: This doesn't mean that everyone wants to do that kind of experience, but if you look for the, the, the culture in that place where you're going to visit and you're going to travel to, you really need to spend time with people that live there. And the community based tourism allow you to get to having a deep experience because it's not filtered.
Elisa: And the storytelling from them becomes very important because what happened, even though for the experiment that you already exist. If you don't tell the story, this becomes isolated, so the community, the experience is available, but the tourists can't get there. The story can, storytelling in particular, can help to create this bridge.
Elisa: And this bridge is, um, not only knowledge, but it's also preparation, in which sense. And as you can see, in a way, I like this a lot. You know, when we go and visit other places, we might suffer a cultural shock, right? Because we want to visit places that are exotic out of, you know, out of our normal experiences, right?
Elisa: So this. means that sometimes my, we might be put in a place that, okay, I don't know this, uh, what this means. And this is good because it's, you learn at the same time, because we talk, you know, coming into a community and then coming in relation with people. It's important to have a support, I think, to create this bridge and prepare yourself because just to give an example.
Elisa: So I was talking during the lockdown because I met a lot of community members through Zoom during the lockdown. I couldn't go anywhere. We talked a lot. So I met this amazing woman. She's a Mapuche. She moved to Santiago. So. In the city, so this is a long story, but Mapuche, the majority lived in the city.
Elisa: Unfortunately, we moved from the rural, but she had a strong connection with, as all the Mapuche, with their land. But then she told me, just to come back to the point of a cultural clash or misunderstanding, I asked her at the end of our interview, I say, tell me, you know, do you remember any weird question or something that a tourist might have asked you that make you laugh or puzzled you or something?
Elisa: And you say, Oh, yeah. Once one lady asked me, What do you sleep? So, like, I sleep in a bed. You know, maybe people have this idea and was sleeping on a bunch of leaves. So I don't know. I mean, we human we live, we are 2021 in the city of Santiago. Don't you think I sleep? This is some like a funny but if you think well if someone asked this kind of question means that we have in our mind an idea.
Elisa: Of this traditional community, especially when we talk about indigenous, which is out of the world, like totally disconnected. And this comes back to what you were saying before. Culture changes, and we, and so we have to admit and be prepared, and we, oh, these, uh, folk orizational culture, these, uh, performances sometimes have been created because tourists want to see that, but actually that was something, That is not real anymore, might have been one day.
Elisa: So tourists should be more prepared to expect that the culture change over time. They might still like to wear their traditional dresses, but maybe not every day. Why not? Maybe they want to go to university, they open their own businesses. And this happens in a lot of cases, even with the Cayenne women in Thailand.
Elisa: They want to be entrepreneurs. There's nothing wrong with it. We have to be aware that, you know, so telling the stories also tells you a story of a first because in the first place is so hard to tell the story of the community. And I'm the first say I'm not about in the individualization. So I need to, okay.
Elisa: The individuals, the person before the community, for me, is the opposite. But when you are to tell a story, the community is so diverse, has a lot of power dynamics within it, a lot of history and layers, that you cannot tell the story of the community. What is the story of that community? It's much easier to help the tourist to connect with another individual, and that's what I do.
Elisa: So one to one, human to human, And through the story of another human being, you can maybe start to understand what her or his community is, so his dimension, the context. So, that's why I will invite everyone to read the story of Graciela, uh, that I shared, uh, last year, um, just to have an idea. You see this woman, you might visit her, but you don't know what is behind, what is background, you know, their memory about a grandparent, why she moved to Santiago.
Elisa: She might have no time to tell you all this in one, one visit, for example. So she's very happy to share the story, but sometimes there is no time. So a story can help to bridge that gap and to connect, uh, human to human. So, um, and it's very powerful because, sorry, I think it's powerful because allow this connection.
Elisa: Yeah, direct and unfiltered.
Christine: Yeah. Um, I just, you reminded me of, I remember when I was really little, um, I grew up in Montana in the United States, which is very rural. It's also really depicted as kind of rugged Western cowboy. Even when I was young, I remember someone, um, saying, Oh, do you ride a horse to school?
Christine: And I was like, what are you talking about? Like, no, I. Don't ride a horse to school. Like, where is that image being painted or where, what, where is that context coming from? And I just remember, I think this was the beginning, maybe of my like sociological inclination. It was like, how, how is this being represented, represented and where did they pick up this filter or.
Christine: You know, way of seeing a particular place. And, you know, this is, um, kind of the next thing that I wanted to talk about is how storytelling really helps to break down stereotypes. Um, looking at who is telling the story is really important. Stepping away from these kind of dominant narratives of travel, which for example, might be this thing that I just shared about, you know, living in Montana and riding a horse to school, or the story you shared where, you know, You know, you're Indigenous, you must be sleeping, like, not in a house, in a bed.
Christine: Like, where do, where do those stories come from? And then also looking at the way that the story of travel is told now, which, or historically, has been very sanitized, has a, reinforces, um, power hierarchies, creates, um, the conditions for these extractive relationships that we were talking about, like very one sided conversations or performances, or even if you're storytelling, it's not a two way exchange.
Christine: And so, I would just love to talk a little bit about that. Like, how does your work and educating both Storytellers and local communities to tell their story. How does that kind of break down some of this dominant narrative?
Elisa: Right? Thanks. Thanks for the question, because I think he's up. is really crucial, especially in the moment we are.
Elisa: So I think the image that we have of places is becoming what it is, not because the industry is a bad, right? Because it's simpler doing this, because as a human, when we have, we do that, we have all stereotype about German, Italian, Spanish. In our head, there is something, um, that he can, you know, summarize what that culture is.
Elisa: And of course, when you visit the place, you will realize if you visit once, you know, if you open mind, you will understand that there is one case and, you know, the picture is bigger. Now, when we talk about marketing, when we talk about how do we present place, a destination. Now, I realize that, uh, this top down, uh, kind of, um, way of presenting it is also a result of lack of time.
Elisa: It's also a result of lack of, uh, skills because, um, when, so what I propose is to, um, kind of, uh, re think the travel marketing in a way that is really from bottom up. So the grassroots should be the ones that talking about themselves, presenting the destination, because, first of all, destination is not just a place.
Elisa: Destination is made of beautiful nature, of course, and, you know, all the natural environment, biodiversity, but also people. meaning culture, meaning tradition, meaning lifestyle. So why don't you involve them in the presentation of a destination? Why also this will give an extreme advantage, I'm talking about competitive advantage to the destination itself, when you have to present yourself, you know, to the tourist.
Elisa: Because when we talk about South America, we have a lot of images, they are kind of similar, I wouldn't say, You can put together two images and, oh, there's a beautiful sunset and, um, it can be Chile, but also it can be Argentina or it can be in Peru. So, what makes the place really unique is the culture, uh, the people.
Elisa: So, what I'm trying to do with my work is actually adding to that. One direction and partial narrative other narratives, which are from the bottom up so is is and as I was saying before, is a work that takes time, of course, is longer. But in fact, the work that I do with the community is a co creating because as we're now talking about co designing experiences, finally, after decades of presenting a product to the community and, you know, using the community.
Elisa: You know, in, in another, you know, top down we start talking about co-designing experiences finally. But then now we start, we should start talking about co-designing the marketing. And this is, it comes after, it is just a natural because if you present an experience or, or if you co-design experience, but this experience is not, uh, presented in the way it is and you try to use other model of other experiences to talk about that experiences.
Elisa: Doesn't work. So this is a quite innovative concept. I understand that every time I talk with people, some people agree, yes, of course, but who's going to do that? Because usually it's easier to send someone in a place and do a brief, you know, description of what it is. then actually having someone there for a while that can actually create and co create the way the experience will ease and will be presented.
Elisa: Because, and this, when I work with community, because this work I do with community, because I am a storyteller, but I don't want to be the only community storyteller. So in my ideal world, I won't be necessary. That would be, of course, I will write my story, but of my experiences, but also the majority will be community members, telling their own story, presenting their own community based tourism project to tourists.
Elisa: And when I talk to them, in the first place, I say, okay, you are a storyteller already. You don't need anyone else to come here and tell your story. You are. Now, also how you can tell the story is up to you. You don't need to have a master in journalism to tell a story. And you can tell it because it talks about experience.
Elisa: The most direct and the most, uh, the less filtered better. So it can be a song, a picture video. So the way you presented experience, you know, as a marketing tool, so using the storytelling and marketing tool can be, can have different form. So, and that opens up and you see the sparkles in there. I say, okay, yeah, great.
Elisa: So opens up possibility. I don't do much in the workshop, but in a way I just give them, I open the door, say, look. Your creativity is the way you have the story. I can help you guide you in this process. And I, you know, but at the end of the day, if you shouldn't, that there is everyone, we are clearly being, we are general as a human.
Elisa: That's what makes a difference from the animals, right? We create that don't exist before. And once you. assume and you recognize the power that you have, the sky's the limit and beyond. So it's, it's incredible to see how empowering is the, the storytelling for them. Because in this case, until now, the main experience I had is like, uh, when I'm talking to them and asking about their story and creating a story with them based on their experience.
Elisa: But, Simple things. The moment I publish the story and they see the story published and they ask my relatives to translate it for them, because usually English is not in the first language, even though the second, but they kind of say, Oh, this might be, Oh, it's being published. It might be, you know, interesting something.
Elisa: So it's great. So you see that they actually are empowered by the experience. Because they say, Oh, my story is important and tourism has been showing, you know, in the practical, you know, I have a lot of example, uh, being involved in a tourism experience, uh, give the opportunity to the community to understand the value that they culturally present.
Elisa: Because. Everyone, I, I, I was born close to Rome and for me, um, all the history I have around me was kind of taken for granted. That is always happened. Now, when you see, you know, tourists coming from miles away and visit your village and say, oh, oh, Tivoli, ah, they talk about it. Oh yeah, it's painted from Turner.
Elisa: I'll see in the National Gallery in London. Must be. Of course, for the community, they usually have their own, um, reference, which doesn't need to be international, not always it is. Um, so understand the kind of stepping out of their community and see how important is their culture. This is something, this is something that happened very often when they start involving themselves with tourism.
Elisa: So this is important. So this is an important part of this, but it's another aspect and about the storytelling and empowering is because even before writing and publishing the story, when they tell their own story to me, when I ask them, remember when you were a child, which, uh, kind of activity you were doing, what would you like to do?
Elisa: Like, uh, you ask this to someone, someone that has kind of not forgotten, but has lived all their life in another environment. Coming back to that moment, You can see, even through the, through a screen, that you brought her back, so the story, to see, retelling their own story, helped her to get it, kind of, in a way, I use this, this term, I say that I give their story back to them.
Elisa: while they're telling me their story. So, make sense? They kind of say, oh, this is my story, this is me, oh, what I've done, look what I've done, my lifetime, you know. So yeah, that's powerful for me as well, the weakness in that.
Christine: Yeah, to hear there's a strength in finding your own voice, hearing your story, having it witnessed, and that gives it some next level of importance internally and externally.
Christine: I know through the work that I do on my sojourns, like a huge part of it is focusing on bringing women to meet with women in wherever we're traveling, often artisans, because I really love how that connection Yeah. both allows for like this human to human understanding and woman to woman understanding, but also when you bring in the artisan part of it, then you're looking at culture and language and storytelling because so many times the, the process of creating the art is the storytelling, like that's the passing of.
Christine: a story from generation to generation, either literally or figuratively through the symbolism that's maybe woven or carved. And so I, I love that idea of thinking about bringing more power to that process. And I have, I remember sitting down with a group of weavers in Guatemala and they were trying to teach me how to do embroidery.
Christine: And they had assumed we were going to be able to accomplish this huge project because it's really easy for them, right? They're like, oh yeah, we'll do this and this and this in two hours. And like two hours in, I think we've embroidered like this much. And they were kind of laughing and then also like, What are we going to do here?
Christine: Because we're clearly never finishing this. And I think that experience allowed them also to see, to take away, um, the idea that it's easy, right? They, they maybe think it's easy because it's something they're doing every day. Um, and it's been passed down, but when they see me attempting to do it, they realize that this isn't necessarily easy, right?
Christine: And so that process is also very empowering and, and sharing. I wanted to also speak about kind of from the marketing perspective or the storytelling perspective using words like authentic or local are kind of like these quick ways of tapping a consumer into an experience that we've kind of, we fall back on, right?
Christine: Because it's easy. We think this automatically paints a picture. But really, there's so much room for interpretation, right? What does authentic mean? What does local mean? And it's almost, um, again, like, it's asking us to be storytellers. Instead of saying, local, what do we mean? Who is local? What does local mean?
Christine: Authentic, what do we mean by authentic? What am I actually saying to you? Like if I'm saying that we're going to participate in an authentic craft, could I instead say we're going to sit down with weavers who have lived on this land for four generations who are going to teach us to dye this, this cloth with local, you know, dyes and, um, share meal that's locally produced, you know, That's what authentic means.
Christine: But we're just like trying to one off market it. So we just say that word. But in, in reality, painting that picture, the storytelling is going to drop our, our traveler into this experience. And one, they're going to know if it's for them, because their depiction of authentic, they might be like, yes, that's what I want.
Christine: But really, nope, they don't want that. Or, you know, Yes, they really want that. And now they know what they're getting. And so I think, you know, not assuming that those kinds of words are bad or overused and shouldn't be used, but like, why are we using them in the first place? And what do we really mean? I just think that's an interesting way again, to like, to start asking questions, you know, not putting a label on something being.
Christine: overused or cliche or whatever, but why, why are we using it? What story are we trying to tell? What message are we trying to communicate? And can we just do that instead? Like, don't take the shortcut. Let's go ahead and get like really, you know, use all of our words and our language and, um, our connection tools and really invite people into the literal story of a place.
Elisa: Totally, I couldn't be more, I couldn't agree more what you just say, with all. Now, I want to just to clarify that, I usually, I usually, I use the word authentic with a very political, strong political connotation. So for me, authentic is only when, The community is kind of authorizing that, or the community is involved, but because that meaning it comes from the grassroots.
Elisa: Of course, if you start using the authentic is becoming, uh, you know, maybe already the risk, Oh, everyone using it, what that means. And I totally agree as a storyteller, you just don't use the word you describe it, what that means in that case, but that description should. be the reflection of what the community is happy to share and what the community identify itself with.
Elisa: Because authentic is something that has to come from the grassroots and in that I use it in a political sense and to make an, you know, a statement. I kind of use authentic from my imagination. So the authentic is only what is coming from there, is already existing before me going there, and doesn't exist because I'm going there.
Elisa: It exists regardless of me, and that I think is my, you know, my best definition of authentic in this case, but I agree. I wouldn't use it because, especially in the marketing, I wouldn't use it. I use it usually in an article where I'm actually talking about the issue and you know, philosophically, but when I'm presenting.
Elisa: Uh, in experience, authentic shouldn't be there because it doesn't say anything. Oh, it's beautiful. It's something I do in my work. She's like, okay, what do you talk? How do you present your place? I use beautiful. Don't use that. What is beautiful for me? It might not be beautiful for someone else. The beauty is something very relative and culturally related and socially related.
Elisa: I mean, it's relative. I mean, to culture and social, uh, sometimes even family. So it's, it's, it's very relative and it can be everything and nothing. So, and yes, I agree with you. Let's. I'm not going to explain to what actually that is in real terms, because we'll attract the right people. So that will be a kind of a way of engaging already.
Elisa: So that's why this is a bridge, you know, you're, you're building already because you're describing what actually is going to be. Mano attract everyone. You know, I'm okay with that. I attract people. They are happy to know that more about it than experience. So yeah, totally.
Christine: Well, I'm just looking. I'm like, this always happens.
Christine: People are listening or like, Oh, here's the time where Christine says, Oh, we're almost out of time. And how did it happen so quickly, but time again, but we have kind of. dived in a little bit to your workshops. You kind of mentioned how you cultivate those stories with people, but I just wanted to give you a moment to talk a little bit more specifically that you do offer community storytelling workshops.
Christine: Can you just share who that's for and what service that provides so that people know a little bit more specifically about the work you do?
Elisa: Yeah, thank you for that. Well, the Community Storytelling Workshop is Directed to community based tourism project, also supported by a tourist board, local government, regional government, or DMC, um, DMO.
Elisa: So everyone who wants to support those kind of projects, because the students of the workshop are the community members. people involved in tourism. So either tour guide, a local entrepreneur, someone that has an, you know, an ideal product they want to, you know, involve in an existing project or creating a new one.
Elisa: And the idea is like, um, this workshop came to give the tools. To these protagonists to telling their own story themselves, using it as a using the story as a as a marketing tool. So this meaning that in different, in some cases, this is a workshop that I do with a with a region. And sometimes. In one community or sometimes in a different community, thinking about a co design workshop, yeah, to present a new idea or ideas of, uh, marketing.
Elisa: So this is actually the grassroots, um, bottom up travel marketing that I'm kind of presenting as an idea, which is totally innovative, totally revolutionary because, uh, it takes a lot of time, but actually it will give something more, um, different. I wouldn't say eliminate the other one, but this is a kind of an addition to that.
Elisa: So from top down to bottom up, we meet and we have a bigger picture of what actually is a destination. So this is the idea. Um, that's why it helps, uh, also a community to understand what marketing is. It's not just selling is like communicating is because for some community marketing is a bad word. I'm telling you, so is, is, uh, and then so marketing is for them as to be seen as an instrument, allow building, you know, this connection, building this, this bridge, like welcoming the right tourist.
Elisa: So that's why it's important that you tell your own story, because you will try the tours that you want to attract. is up to you. The community might decide, I want this kind of tourist and not this one. And I present what I, we do in a certain way. So the engagement is okay. The, the bill, the bridge will be, uh, right for the right people.
Elisa: So this is a bit, this is a bit of what I do with a workshop. And thanks for the question, because I think is something is very powerful when I see practice one thing. And this. You know, it is an ongoing process and people, once they learn doing it, will start experimenting is multimedia is, uh, is they see that really the sky's the limit and I will collaborate more on the local level as well amongst them as interpreter and with external, uh, supportive operators.
Christine: Um, I really, I love that. And I feel like for me, um, I really want to play around with this idea as well, bringing it into my business, because I feel like I often have a hard time communicating the story I want to tell, because I'm trying to use this traditional model and it's not allowing for, I can't fit my, like, peg into that hole.
Christine: It just doesn't work. And so something gets lost in the translation because I'm trying to do kind of both things and they're not, I'm not doing either one quite the right way. And so I love this, like really thinking about how can I invite The women that I'm connecting with to be the people that talk about this journey and, and what it means to them and, and, and telling their story.
Christine: And so I'm really excited for the doors that this opens, um, both in terms with connecting with travelers, but in allowing communities to really take the reins. And like you said, let, letting them dictate who comes and. Setting this precedent that when we travel, it is not out of a sense of entitlement or our ownership of this experience.
Christine: It is as a welcomed guest to each community, um, that needs to be done respectfully and carefully and thoughtfully and mindfully. And, um, I think when we start to approach travel, With that intention is when we're really going to see, um, travel become much more healing and much less extractive. So I really appreciate so much this conversation.
Christine: I wish that we had more time, but in the future, perhaps we can pick one of these ideas and go a little deeper. Um, but I'm also happy to. Perhaps be leaving people with questions that they can ask and definitely to reach out to you. Um, if this has You know sparked some curiosity if they want to have a better understanding of this way of connecting Before we go one I want to let people know how they can reach out to you and then two I have just a series of rapid fire questions That we're going to end our conversation with so at least if you can let people know where they can find you
Elisa: Okay, great.
Elisa: Thank you. So, um, you can find me on Traveller Storyteller, it's my blog, so my, the hub that in the future will carry on transforming, but I want to share, I won't share anything more, but at the moment you can find a lot of these stories and more to come. So, TravellerStoryteller. com and all social media, um, just Traveller Storyteller, you will find me there.
Elisa: If you find me on, you know, on Facebook and LinkedIn also with that name, so, and with my name, of course.
Christine: Okay, so for our rapid fires, um, what is your favorite book or movie that offers you a travel escape or inspires adventure?
Elisa: Oh, wow. Um, I think it might be my, my first, first, first book is Momo. Um, I don't know if, uh, you heard about it, but this is a story of this little girl that travel on her own.
Elisa: And, uh, she's a, she's a stranger, in a way, from the place, but she start being the healing, healer and the connector of all the people in the place. And I really like that idea that, By listening and by even a stranger person can help connect and create harmony. Um, because sometimes we need more time, only time and silent to understand each other.
Elisa: This is something that tourism can help us with. I think.
Christine: Thank you. That sounds like it's such an interesting story and like a really fun way to kind of look at Look at that. Um, what is always in your suitcase or backpack when you travel?
Elisa: Ooh, bottle of water, but bottle of, um, not bottle, um, the one you refill.
Elisa: Yes. The refilling bottle of water.
Christine: What has been your favorite destination?
Elisa: Tricky. I think it's Brazil. It's Brazil and in Brazil, Salvador. I felt so connected to Africa in Salvador. And, um, yeah, it is in the Columbus community. I really felt really welcomed and really at home for some reason. Maybe, uh, I, You know, my, you know, past life, I was somewhere else, but yeah, uh, the Kilombolos community, uh, form, you know, founded by former slave, uh, slaves, enslaved people, and that are just, uh, until A few decades ago, they didn't have roads, they were just built in the middle of the forest just to escape, um, you know, the former owners of the plantation.
Elisa: So they really lived in, in, in, in a deep relationship with, with nature and environment. was very hostile at the beginning, but they kind of find their own balance within that. And now they, the cohabitance is, um, is great. It's amazing. And that they have a lot of story, uh, these, uh, balance and the new, um, rediscovering new balances in the future.
Elisa: But yeah, I think that was a great connection that I made when I went there.
Christine: Um, I love when we feel so at home somewhere where we think we shouldn't feel at home. And I feel like that's such a good example of just feeling fully human and fully connected in a place. Um, it's just, it always catches me off guard too, when you arrive and you expect to feel really, uh, disjointed or uncomfortable and you're, you just feel, you feel good and you feel like on your two feet and you're like, Oh, I wouldn't have expected that.
Christine: I think that is really the magic of travel. Where do you still long to travel to?
Elisa: Everywhere has a, someone say, and everywhere is on my list. So, yeah, I don't know what I'm going to be next, but I want to explore, um, Africa at the moment I've just been in Morocco, but I want to explore, uh, the heart of Africa and then, yeah, really looking forward to, to be there.
Christine: Um, what is something you eat that immediately connects you to a place you've been?
Elisa: Eat? Um, I'm not sure. Well, I think to my roots, because, you know, um, I don't know about my roots, but I'm Sicilian, even though I keep traveling, I was born traveling between Rome and Sicily, which are two different words. And you know, the fig in India is a kind of fruit full of seeds, colored, and is a cactus, basically.
Elisa: And that, for me, was my root. Uh, even if I found it somewhere in London, doesn't taste the same, but for me it's like, oh yeah, that is me, that is part of me, um, somehow, and is, uh, and when I think about Sicily, I think about roots, but I also think about the, the, the love for travel that I, I, I, I appreciate by going back and forward, uh, to Sicily, and, um, you learn about life.
Elisa: For me, travel is life, it's not. Travel is not an excursion. And, uh, so it came to me and I wanted to share that. My gut suggests me this, this fruit. Um, yeah. And I think that's what I've shared.
Christine: Um, who was the person that inspired or encouraged you to set out and explore the world?
Elisa: Yeah. Um, well, I think it was, A person you mean?
Elisa: Yeah, an anthropologist. Well, I think they were there because when I was, when I was studying, I wanted to be an photographer. I wanted to be an, uh, an photographer in particular. Now, actually in the way I am being, I forgot her name, Mar uh, Margaret Meet. I think was her, I think was her, was her because the way she, she was able to be in a place and, and be so respectful and understanding, try to, um, she, she transmitted this idea of respect, of interaction, but in a way that is not, um, oppressive and, uh, not presumption.
Elisa: And, uh, I think it was, yeah, probably what she, she was one note. I was an old anthropologist that I learned when I was growing up. Uh, yeah.
Christine: I love that you had that awareness. I remember just really feeling that too. And until really recently, there hasn't been language around that, right? Like around how do we travel without it being oppressive or extractive?
Christine: Like it was just a feeling, but there wasn't a language really that went with it. And I love that we both get to be in this industry in a time where Now we're talking about that from a place of intention, and um, so, I'm so happy to have that kindred connection with you.
Elisa: Amazing, yeah. Great.
Christine: The last question is, if you could take an adventure with one person, fictional or real, alive or past, who would it be?
Elisa: Maya Angelou. I will go with her. Um, I will bring her back to life and go on a train with her through America and North and South America. Yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah. I think so.
Christine: That would be incredible. Well, thank you so much for your time today and sharing something that I know is so important. So deeply important to you.
Christine: And I hope that it just inspired somebody else to think about how they're engaging with travel and how they can ask more questions and make it such a meaningful process for themselves and for others.
Elisa: Amazing. Thank you very much for inviting me. It was a pleasure to share a bit of my journey with you and the audience.
Elisa: Um, thank you. You're welcome.
Christine: Thank you for listening to the soul of travel. I hope you enjoyed the journey. If you love this conversation, I encourage you to subscribe, rate the podcast, and share And share the episodes that inspire you with others. I am so proud of the way these conversations are bringing together people from around the world.
Christine: If this sounds like your community, welcome, I'm so happy you are here. You can find all the ways you can be at. Part of the Soul of Travel and Lotus Sojourns community at www. lotussojourns. com. Here you can learn more about Soul of Travel and my guests. You can see details about the transformational sojourns I guide for women, as well as my book sojourn, which offers an opportunity to explore your heart, mind, and the world through the pages of books specially selected to create a unique journey.
Christine: I am all about community and would love to connect. You can find me on Facebook at Lotus Sojourns and join our community, the Lotus Sojourns Collective, or follow me on Instagram, either at Lotus Sojourns or at Solo Travel Podcast. Stay up to date by joining the Lotus Sojourns mailing list. I look forward to getting to know you and hopefully hear your story.
You can find me on Facebook at Lotus Sojourns on Facebook, or join the Lotus Sojourns Collective, our FB community, or follow me on Instagram either @lotussojourns or @souloftravelpodcast. Stay up to date by joining the Lotus Sojourns mailing list. I look forward to getting to know you and hopefully hearing your story.