Episode 217 - Zoe Shapiro, Stellavision
In this episode of Soul of Travel, Season 6: Women's Wisdom + Mindful Travel, presented by @journeywoman_original, Christine shares a soulful conversation with Zoe Shapiro.
When Zoe Shapiro moved to Italy for what she thought would be one year of remote work, she found herself drawn to a culture that prioritized pleasure and personality over professional credentials. She discovered a new way of experiencing life and found that she couldn’t leave. Her lifelong passion for travel had always driven her forward, never letting budget constraints or solo status hinder her adventures. She launched Stellavision to provide a unique platform that celebrates and connects smart, independent women who share her vision of immersive, culturally rich travel experiences, focusing particularly on introducing travelers to Italy's hidden gems and authentic cultural pulse.
The Pull of the Journey
Zoe's story begins with what she calls "a spontaneous decision about a long-time plan." With a background in marketing for boutique hotels and lifestyle brands, she initially planned a year-long stay in Italy. What started as a four-week AirBnB rental in Rome through a handshake deal turned into a two-year residence in 2020, ultimately leading to her securing Roman residency and launching StellaVision Travel.
"I knew one day I would have a business and a brand. I knew it would be in the female space. I knew it would likely be somewhere in the travel and hospitality space," Zoe reflects. While challenging, this period of lockdown became a synchronous part of her journey, giving her the chance to fall in love with Italy and transforming her marketing expertise and love for Italy into a unique travel company.
The Third Culture Kid Who Found Home
As a self-described "third culture kid" — born in Scotland to South African parents, raised in Toronto, and later living in the UK — Zoe's international background deeply influences her approach to travel experiences. This sense of being from everywhere and nowhere simultaneously has shaped how she crafts travel experiences for others. Zoe is able to put herself in others’ shoes and consider different perspectives, experiences, and values.
"I think it affects the kind of traveler I am, and the traveler I am affects the travel experiences I create," she explains. Her focus isn't on checking off tourist boxes but rather on creating transportive experiences that allow travelers to truly connect with places and people.
One of StellaVision's most distinctive features is its commitment to size-inclusive travel experiences. Zoe shares how her own experiences in Italy helped shape this aspect of her business: "The sea and swimming is part of the lifestyle here in a way that most of us North Americans aren't used to... no one, especially on a 40-degree summer day, is going to deprive themselves of getting in the sea or getting in a bathing suit just because of the way they feel."
This philosophy has led to the creation of size-inclusive trips that welcome all women and non-binary individuals comfortable in female spaces. The emphasis isn't just on body positivity but on creating an environment where everyone can "show up as their full self on day one, instead of finding out is it okay for me to be me in this environment."
The Magic of Women's Group Travel
Stellavision's focus on small-group women's travel creates unique dynamics that wouldn't be possible in mixed groups. As Zoe explains, "I remember being a traveler on a group trip with couples as a single woman and it changes the dynamic. It changes the way you look, present yourself and interact with people. It's just a different vibe when women show up together."
The company's travelers come from diverse backgrounds and experiences, but they share common values and desires for authentic travel experiences. "We're not here to dress for men. We're not here to socialize with men. We're not here to worry about how we look in a swimsuit or ordering a second portion at dinner," Zoe emphasizes.
Zoe and her team also focus on connecting travelers with local women doing remarkable things in Italy. Through her "Women Doing Cool Shit in Italy" series, Zoe highlights local artisans, business owners, and creatives, creating meaningful connections between her travelers and the local community. "The women you meet, they're a blog post, they're a social media post, and they're also your friends, your vendors, like the people you would relate to in your hometown that are here," she shares. These connections often evolve into lasting friendships — so essential to our well-being in the world today.
Zoe will be the first to share that this business has transformed not just its travelers but Zoe herself. "I almost had this idea of a business and I was like, I want to do this thing. I think I'll be good at it. I didn't fully appreciate... how it would change my life, how it would evolve my own self-discovery and acceptance, and the relationships that I would form."
Travel has the potential for transformation when it's approached with intention, inclusivity, and a focus on genuine connection. Sometimes, the most meaningful journeys are those that don't follow a predetermined path but rather unfold naturally, guided by values and community.
“When you offer people the chance to be themselves, when they’re coming to you because they want your version of Italy, what that creates and what that does for our relationships as well - it’s been such a privilege.”
Soul of Travel Episode 217 At a Glance
In this conversation, Christine and Rebe discuss:
· How Zoe’s year-long adventure to Italy became a lifelong journey
· Creating a welcoming and inclusive travel experience, especially creating size-inclusive travel
· The fun and freedom women can have when traveling in smaller groups
Join Christine and Zoe Shapiro now for this soulful conversation.
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Related UN Sustainable Development Goals
Sustainable Development Goal #5: Achieve gender equality and empower all women and girls.
Sustainable Development Goal #10: Reduce inequality within and among countries.
Resources & Links Mentioned in the Episode
Learn more about Stellavision Travel and connect with Zoe: stellavisiontravel.com
Connect with Zoe on Instagram!
Learn more about the RISE Travel Institute Flagship Program here.
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Soul of Travel honors the passion and dedication of people making a positive impact in the tourism industry. In each episode, you’ll hear the stories of women who are industry professionals, seasoned travelers, and community leaders. Our expert guests represent social impact organizations, adventure-based community organizations, travel photography and videography, and entrepreneurs who know that travel is an opportunity for personal awareness and a vehicle for global change.
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Soul of Travel Episode 217 Transcript
Women’s travel, transformational travel, sustainable travel, social entrepreneurship
Christine: [00:03:00] Welcome to soul of travel podcast. I'm your host, Christine. And today I am joined by Zoe Shapiro, who is the founder and CEO of Stella vision travel. And I am super excited for this conversation. I was just telling, telling Zoe that I have been following her for a really long time and I love The idea of your business.
I love all the stuff that I see that you're sharing on social media. And I'm really excited to have this conversation.
Zoe: Me too.
Christine: Uh, well, before we jump in, I'm going to turn it over to you to introduce yourself and tell my listeners just a little bit more about who you are and what you do in the space of travel right now.
Zoe: Sure. So as you mentioned, I'm a founder and CEO. My background is in marketing. I worked for boutique hotels and lifestyle brands, went freelance, and then I'm sure we'll get into the story that got me into Italy and this business. And then I founded StellaVision, [00:04:00] which is a Agency we do luxury itineraries for solo travelers and inclusive group trips for self identifying women throughout the country
Christine: Yeah. Amazing. Okay. Well, yeah, I definitely want to get into the backstory and the how you got here. So the first thing I'd love to hear from you is how you got into travel or when you caught the travel bug, did you start traveling early on in your life or was this something that happened as you were an adult?
Zoe: Um, I wouldn't say I started traveling early on in life, but I have an international outlook Let's put it that way my Parents are South Africans. I was born in Scotland. We moved to Toronto when I was five, which is where I dropped my Scottish accent in Canadian kindergarten, like a little conformist. And I went back to the UK at 18.
So I'm a bit of a mutt. I learned recently I'm what you call a third culture kid. And there's definitely that like fusion, that melting pot in [00:05:00] my perspective. And I think, you know, on a subconscious level, like, I belonged nowhere. You know, I wasn't quite Canadian enough for my peers. I wasn't South African, nor was I Scottish.
By the time I got back to the UK at 18, it was very clear that despite having been born there, I couldn't perfectly identify because I had grown up in a different country. So I think without even realizing it, perhaps that just led me to keep looking like Where can I go? What's open to me? And I sort of developed this life of, um, travel.
And I quickly realized that my travel goals didn't always line up with friends, whether it be time off work, budgets, goal, like travel, actual goals. Um, so I became a solo traveler. as well. And that sort of culminated in what was planned to be a year in Italy. I was freelancing by that time, [00:06:00] and I had come here with a great intern back in the Eastern Standard Time Zone for what I thought would be a year, and then month 11 was March 2020, and everything changed.
Christine: Yeah, that is like
pause. Um, literally,
Zoe: historian from here. Um, essentially, I got stuck. I got stuck in Rome. Um, and, I mean, back then, we called it coronavirus, and I had the Canadian embassy working to get me out, and it just wasn't going to be a possibility. So, I essentially planned on doing the first lockdown here, and my Canadian visa expired in that first lockdown.
And then I also looked down the road, and I realized that Brexit was looming, um, this was 2020, and if I had any moves to make, just to give myself some flexibility, because who knows [00:07:00] what was going to happen between sublets and careers in Toronto, and me and my dog being stranded in Rome, so I took a bit of a gamble, got my Roman residency, and then I made what I sort of term like a spontaneous decision about a long time plan, which is, I knew one day, I would have a business and a brand.
I knew it would be in the female space. I knew it would likely be somewhere in the travel and hospitality space. And this television sort of became a convergence of my marketing background and my year in Italy and all of my experiences rolled into one. And I took a huge gamble and started a travel company on the back of the pandemic.
Christine: um, again, I feel like I've said this so many times, but there are so many of us that the pandemic like was the exact time that we started our businesses intentionally or unintentionally. And it's so interesting seeing how that happened, especially [00:08:00] being in tourism. Um, And then also seeing others, a few women I've spoken to that also were kind of stuck wherever they were, and that greatly influenced the trajectory of things.
And so it's interesting to think like in that moment, I'm sure it seemed really vulnerable and a lot of unknowns, but looking back, does it seem kind of like Obviously, nobody wanted to go through a global pandemic, but it did it seem like a synchronous part of your journey to have you put there.
Zoe: Absolutely. Like I will be the first one to say that my experience feels pretty faded. Um, from the part where I was originally supposed to leave for Italy, October, 2018, instead of April, 2019, which would have had me back before the pandemic started to the fact that I was in that particular, I mean, I took an Airbnb in Rome for four weeks, did a [00:09:00] handshake deal for six more months and ended up living there for over two years.
And. It built relationships and friendships, um, because my landlord slash next door neighbor was a peer, um, So I have a huge debt to her and then yeah, I just um I don't think the way I would kind of define it is I can be pretty um Bold, but i'm not necessarily a very lateral thinker. So absolutely, I planned this year to go off to Italy, but it didn't really occur to me.
And if you like it, you can stay. You know, the plan was always sublet my apartment for a year and return. And then when the plan got torn up, um, not by me, then I had to begin to rethink things. And it feels very synchronous for sure.
Christine: Yeah, I want to go back and talk about the how you were saying that you really don't feel like you had a place that you [00:10:00] belonged based on all of the places that you grew up and no one place like claimed you or you felt you could claim. I'm curious how kind of maybe that search for belonging influences the kinds of travel experiences that you create.
Well,
Zoe: because I think it affects the kind of traveler I am, and the traveler I am affects the travel experience I create. Um, I've learned through Stellavision we're going to be going into our fifth summer now as we prep for 2025, and the more I pivot to what feels personal and resonant, the more success and the more, um, my clients and travelers.
resonate with what I'm offering. So to go back to your question, that I think, um, from like an early age, I [00:11:00] was looking for transportive experiences, experiences that were less about like checking something off a box, um, and more like, I would rather go to an art gallery and. Come out with a sense of three things that I saw then Take in the whole Exhibit that's just the way my brain works and I kind of feel the same about travel like obviously you want to Like submerge yourself into the experience and you want to pack it all in especially if it's a bucket list destination but truly what is more meaningful to like Run around a country, checking things off a list, or for years and decades to come, to remember the interaction you had over, you know, this piece of cheese, or this, like, task that they tapped, um, and poured for you on your trip to Italy.
And I would [00:12:00] argue it's the latter. So it was really experiential. And I think that probably goes back to my marketing career as well. What I was most excited in, I mean, I was a sort of Jill of all trades. I oversaw a department, but the things that I was most excited by was when we could build an experience.
So, you know, I'm a fan of. Building that experience. I'm a fan of doing things a little bit differently, and I think that filters down into the way I run my company, whether it be for private clients or the actual experiences I build for the groups.
Christine: that's absolutely the way I travel as well. And I think that's probably also what resonates when I see what you're creating. Um, and I have something else I want to pick up on that, but. I want to just kind of talk about this idea of experience forward because you have a marketing background, so this is a great question for me to ask you, but it seems to me I've had difficulty in conveying the power [00:13:00] of that beyond I'm this idea that people are thinking they're going somewhere for this certain checkbox, right?
And you know that it's, that's not going to be important. It's this connection and it's these moments and it's these usually happenstance experience, even though we do our best to curate the perfect journey, it's still this outlier. That's the moment, right? How do you communicate that?
Zoe: You're curating and you're not present. Yeah.
Sorry. How do I what?
Christine: How do you, how do you communicate the value of that? Or how do you, I guess, convince travelers that that really is where the value lies, not in checking the box, but in really, truly looking for that connection.
Zoe: hmm. I mean, I'll be perfectly honest and I'll admit that I don't think I've found the perfect way to articulate it I think I have had a tremendous amount of like I don't want to say luck because [00:14:00] it's not an accident But, one marker of success of Stellavision is that, like, we draw the right people.
And that's not to say there's a wrong kind of person, but most of my clients, um, are people that are, you know, excited about listening to my advice. They know that I'm on the ground here in Rome. They know that I'm coming from a place of experience and passion, and they are very open to recommendations and things like that.
That being said, like, maybe it is my background in marketing because I've worked for tough clients, and I've worked for tough CEOs, and I sort of view it as my job to make the best possible recommendation I can. That is what you're going to pay me for, and I am going to give 110 percent of myself to that.
If you choose not to take it, That's totally fine. And what I always say to people is, like, [00:15:00] I'm here to make your fantasy, your dream vacation come true. Now, I can tell you that the Amalfi Coast is going to be a gong show, and it's going to be crowded, and it's going to be a huge amount of steps and expensive meals, and I would love to send you to Ischia instead.
And it's completely fine if someone says to me, No, my dream is to take that epic photograph of the Amalfi Coast. Fantastic. Let's make that happen for you. I can give you my best recommendation, and, um, we go from there. But, very luckily, we, like, I joke that, um, we have different, um, clients, and some are low maintenance and chill, some are wonderful but high maintenance, some are, like, it doesn't matter, but I'm very fortunate that on our tours especially, which are such a community driven enterprise, we haven't had an asshole, not one, not one nasty, [00:16:00] malintended difficult person that made the group uncomfortable and made things difficult for us as the staff or their fellow travelers.
And so we do, we're very lucky to draw the Stella vision kind of traveler, someone that comes here with an open mind. Someone comes here, grateful for recommendations. And, um, I think that's just about. Letting myself be known and putting out there who I am, what I enjoy. I had a great affirmation this past weekend when I have a two time traveler named Lizzie, who I'm just such a fan of her.
She's a young woman who can afford to go on these incredible vacations. And she's been with us twice on two group trips. And she sent me an email saying like, I'm spoiled. How do I find Estella Vision in the next destination that she's visiting? Because she's been to Italy [00:17:00] two years in a row now. And I said, look, I can't pretend to be a destination expert there, but I have a lot of personal travel experience in this area.
And I have a lot of transferable skill set. So if you want me to plan your holiday, I'm going to drop the charges because I'm not, you know, I'll make my commission, sure. But I'm not going to charge you because A, she's like, A very valued return client and B, I'm not a destination expert. I'm just a, someone with personal travel tips, but that's how I started my business being a savvier than most traveler and build it up for there and build the professional network and then call out the people who like to travel.
Like I do. And that's how it's how it's kind of gone on and on.
Christine: Yeah. Um, so the, the idea of kind of like getting it right for right now and pivoting and then aligning with your true [00:18:00] identity and that being, you said, you know, not luck, but alignment. And I think all those things are like, are huge game changers and I see that in other businesses, like, and I'm sure you can relate to this.
You, you start with this idea of you, the way you think the tourism industry works or
the way you go about it, or you know, what you think you're building. And then all of a sudden you're like, that wasn't it. Or it just, it, it gets stuck. And then all of a sudden you, Question that or you tweak one thing and you dial in on that on the value set, and then you start being able to communicate it for you.
What did that feel like from the like push start to now? Yeah.
Zoe: Oh gosh, I mean, I always say that I'm an experiment without a control group, like, both in my personal life and in television, because, I mean, is it my late 30s? Is it the move to [00:19:00] Italy? Is it the pandemic? Like, who knows what has set me on this particular path? And the true is, the same is true with television, like, I know that I offer my clients a superlative experience and more than just the travel experience, like a level of care and personality.
Now, if you forecast 10 years down the road and hopefully I have a business that grows and scales, how's that going to look? How is that Like culture couldn't be distilled. I can't tell you today, but that's not today's challenge when you're a business owner in their first few years of business. Um, but from the time I hit go, I would say that.
Like, there was a lot of imposter syndrome, um, for sure. The way I kind of explain my career, Stellavision career trajectory is I actually have two jobs. One is as a travel entrepreneur, and the second is as a business owner. [00:20:00] It's my first time at both. You know, I had a certain level of professional expertise, and, um, I certainly excelled in the roles I held before this, but I freelancing for yourself and working for a company are two very different things than owning a business.
And, Being a savvier than most traveler is a different thing than being a travel entrepreneur. So in the early years, I would say that when I pressed go, I hit that button, the imposter syndrome really was present about the travel entrepreneur. And I would say I've overcome that for sure. Um, I really stand by what I offer.
And I know that I facilitate Just like a certain level of ease and comfort and really exceptional experiences. Some of which are like on par with incredible luxury experiences in Italy. Like I can get you up in a helicopter [00:21:00] over Etna. And as luck would have it, the volcano put on an amazing show for my clients that day.
Am I the only one to offer that service? Of course I'm not. But, um, I can do it. And it was flawless, and they had a wonderful time. What's a little bit more unique about me is I sort of take my personality and my experience of a traveler and infuse that into the business. So while I can offer that kind of a luxury experience, I can also offer like the luxury of like atypical concierge.
So for instance, I have arranged for a tattoo artist to get to a remote Tuscan villa with 24 hours notice and everyone on a trip got a tattoo that wanted one. Um, and that's probably a little more unusual compared to some of my luxury concierge peers. Um, and I love that Stelevision and I can encompass both of those things.
And I, Feel as though I have earned the right to put that imposter syndrome to bed. I will be totally [00:22:00] frank. The journey as a business over the journey as a business owner is it's still one of growth. I have things to learn. I have, you know, places that I really need to buckle down. And it's in this interesting moment of trying to grow the business at a pace that allows me to focus on.
Where my skill set lies and bringing the support and ensure that there's multiple salaries that you know can recompense different people Um, so that's where I am and it's a sticky spot and i'm sure once I get through that The next phase will be scaling and how do I do that in a meaningful way where you know, I really do have A one on one relationship with almost all of my clients, and that will change, but I know that what I offer is worth bringing to a bigger number of clients, so I don't think, you know, it'll ever be the growth, the change, the friction of business ownership will ever be done, but, [00:23:00] um, it's always going to be a bumpy journey, and I would like to say that anyone who owns a business, anyone who's a Like self employed, a solo entrepreneur, and they say, you know, smooth sailing.
They're lying. They're lying. But so it's, you know, a press go. And just like we were off to the races, but it's been different challenges and different stages. And I anticipate. I'm going to talk to you today about how to grow your brand and how
Christine: Yeah, thank You so much for like saying it like it is, which I, of course, expect you to do. But, um, it, I think no one becomes an entrepreneur because they don't want to grow. And if you did, you made a wrong choice. Like, yeah.
Zoe: evaluate how I want to grow and how big I want to grow because I mean, to be further transparent. Television is funded [00:24:00] by a smart decision I made as a freelancer and I was offered equity in a company and It was a startup. It did incredibly well. Everyone worked like dogs. I have like a trauma bond with those colleagues and like to be perfectly frank, it made us wealthy.
It gave me the ability to invest in myself and my company. And It was pretty miserable. It was pretty miserable. And that wasn't my company. I was obviously working for someone else's vision, but I was back home visiting Toronto and sitting on the couch of a girlfriend who we met through working there.
And she sort of made an off the cuff comment about, Oh, one day when Stella vision is sold for 200 million and I like recoiled, I don't want to, I don't want to do the kind of work I don't want to. Um, work with the kind of people that would create that opportunity for a [00:25:00] television. To be perfectly frank, that's not why I'm in this.
Do I want to grow? Of course I do. I want to grow creatively. I want to grow financially. I want to build a team. Maybe television goes to other countries. Like there's an exciting future of growth for me. But I don't know if it's the Italian experience seeping in as well, but the idea of working that hard for that big a payday and growing to, like, I physically recoiled at the idea.
Um, and she was just being supportive, of course, and wishing me well and, you know, wanting the thing that had happened to us on someone else's dream to happen to my dream. And it was a very, and I hadn't really thought about it before, but in that moment I realized. I don't want to grow that big. I don't want to, I don't need a company that's worth that much.
I want to earn a good living doing what I love. And yes, I need to scale, but I don't ever want to scale that big.
Who knows? Maybe I'll be singing a different tune in 20 [00:26:00] years, but um, remind me of this conversation if I am.
Christine: Yeah, I think that's really interesting because I, I think, and again, this is something that I've talked about with many people, but the idea that when you start a business, you know, you have to know where you're going, which we've already debunked. That's not true. Um, and then also that it has to grow for the sake of growth or like that success is this growth, right?
And you just grow and grow and grow and grow and grow. And then that means you're succeeding. But to know that you have. And of course it could change, but right now you have like an end point where that feels like a comfortable place to grow to that still feels aligned with your values.
I mean, that's a bit of a new conversation where people are saying like, I only want to be this big.
Zoe: But I think it's especially germane in our industry. Because as we deal with over tourism, I mean, the fact is, you, like, and not just in, not just in our industry, like, whether [00:27:00] it's clothes production or any number of things, but I'll speak for what I know, I mean, part of Stellavision's brand promise is to see Italy differently.
Again, I'll get you to the Amalfi Coast and I'll do it with flair if you want to go to the Amalfi Coast. But I want to show you the spots of Italy that are not so overly touristed. And it's also important to me to show them to you respectfully. I'm not going to take a group of 30 people and, you know, selfie sticks and flags through a small sleepy town.
I want to take a group of You know, 10 or 12 people to have earnest interactions with locals. And there is a problematic side to this notion of scale in the travel industry, because more isn't better for those that are visiting a place, those that live there, it's not sustainable. And like, we're beginning to see Italy bring [00:28:00] in some real measures to fight.
over tourism and I would certainly be heartbroken to See, you know some of the small towns that I cherish some of the places that I visit In my summer vacations, which of course I send individual respectful Right clients to, um, you know, I don't want to talk about those at that top of line of a big piece in the New York times and have everyone descend upon this small little haven that can't really sustain that level of tourism.
Um, so yeah, I think your point is an excellent one. How big do we want to grow? And I think it's something in our industry that we have to be really responsible about as well, not just for our own sake, but for the places that we send business.
Christine: Yeah, I love that so much. And I think that that's something that I really feel I noticed when I traveled when I was younger, like I would just notice [00:29:00] that, you know, in certain places where you're like, like, we're too much here. This is, this is just not right. And I, I didn't know what about it, but I'm like, man, this just, This is, we're doing a disservice by being here.
We're no longer experiencing this destination. We're overtaking this destination. And it, it doesn't even for me as a traveler, then I, I don't, I'm not even getting what I'm there for in the first place, right? Like we, I think we're really seeing what that balance is. And I love so much that, that you're expressing that so fully, because I That the responsibility that we have as travel creators and designers is immense and as content creators and storytellers and all those things, like we wield the like arrow where people go and we, we are the ones that If you, if you run a trip here, this is where the people are [00:30:00] going.
So we have so much more power than I think we ever understood in being able to shape what the industry looks like and feels like. I think before we were so caught up in meeting consumer demand that we're just like build it, build it, build it, build it, build it. And I think more people are learning to say no.
Yeah.
Zoe: especially on the back of the pandemic. I mean, Italy's largest business is tourism, right? And on the one hand, you have the number one visited, number one most visited country in the world, right? So it's not exactly starting from nothing, but then you put, you know, Like a Bosch through all of that business and people really struggling.
And then we were just grateful to see the business return in 2021, 2022. But sure enough, um, now we're like looking at the problems, like the Jubilee is about to start here in Rome. So in [00:31:00] 2023, uh, we had the largest number of travelers ever for the year, which was 33 million. And they're projecting the same again.
for 2025, and they're expecting 30 million religious tourists as well. And as a Rome resident, I'm thinking like, I don't think I'm going to catch a taxi next year. Like, and what is my plan? Um, but it was interesting what you said about, Like over tourism and as content creators and we shape the story Because another idea that i've been toying with recently is like in this idea of over tourism and how to manage it There is no unbiased Adjudicator, there is no one without a stake Saying actually this is what I want or this is what would be the right amount and of course, you know we see places like city centers and mayors You Airbnb policies, [00:32:00] um, but mayors have termed and their viewpoint is not necessarily everyone's viewpoint.
And some people are hungry for the revenue while others are looking at the problem that the lack of rent for locals is creating. So, um, again, I'm not going to change the world, even in my own industry. I'm like, Not even a fingerprint. I'm barely a like hangnail, but how can I, in the values of my business, be smart about the way I affect, um, particularly those gems that, you know, where I can send valuable business in that people that are respectful, people that are there to put money into the local economy without disrupting it in an ungainly way, um, It's also a very privileged way of traveling and a privileged way of being.
So it's something I'll continue to evaluate and it's why I'm so grateful for conversations [00:33:00] with fellow travel entrepreneurs like yourself.
Christine: Yeah, I agree. And I was just going to ask, like, how much does this conversation spill over, I suppose not in your more custom trips, but in your group trips, is this anything that you talk about with your travelers? Do they notice any of this difference as compared to any of their past travel experiences?
What is that dialogue?
Zoe: They can certainly feel it. Um, now for logistics sake, our travel always starts. In a big city, whether it's Rome, Palermo, Florence, that's where the International Airport is, and that's what makes sense. And almost without fail, we get out of the big city. Like, we spent about 18 hours there. And you could argue that there are so many more sites, restaurants, there's so many more things to do.
Um, but my travelers quickly understand the value that we offer of showing you an Italy less traveled and offering those experiences. So where they have questions, we bring it up, [00:34:00] certainly. One thing I always like to stress is like, not just what is by the book respectful, but what is the local version of respectful.
To be frank, it's never been a problem because I don't have disrespectful clients and customers. And like I said, no assholes thus far, knock on wood. But for instance, like, we have a tour photographer on every, um, tour. And one thing I always talk is, like, where is that line of capturing an experience with reverence and, you know, it's, well intended and where is it invasive?
And you know, I, sometimes each photographer has a different line. I know where Stella Vision's kind of line stands and I ensure that that is enforced and that's more of a staff conversation than a traveler conversation, [00:35:00] but It can be, I mean, the places that are, I mean, this is a terribly overused expression, but off the beaten track, the Italian culture is such that they're often quite charmed to have us, especially because, you know, we're not rowdy, we're not littering, we're not being disrespectful or loud.
We are inquisitive about their culture. We are putting You know, euros in those shop tills and we're being very respectful and interested and that is such an Italian culture. They, they want to share the best of their country with us and that is such a privilege of being here and working here as well.
Um, so I wouldn't say that like a formal conversation has ever arisen, but um, people certainly feel The the change in the atmosphere as [00:36:00] soon as we get out of rome get out of florence get out of palermo And enjoy these less visited spots. Um [00:37:00]
Christine: Well, I had, um, the line from your website of professional photographer on each trip is one of my, my talking points. And I, I love, um, that you talked about kind of the line of, um, You know, understanding where photography is appropriate [00:38:00] or what, what, just what that looks like having a conversation.
And that reminded me, um, I took the rise travel Institute anti oppression and tourism course a couple of years ago, and they have a, one of the chapters is on ethical travel photography. And, um, It was very eye opening. Again, it was like one of those things I noticed as I moved around the world with a camera.
I studied photojournalism for a while and so that was a way I literally viewed the world. Um, but you notice, I, I would notice how that felt. Like some people, that was like an invitation. It almost gave me like more credit to be there because I had this Camera and maybe that was important. Maybe I wasn't just a traveler.
Maybe who knows? It would give you permission in some places. And then in some places it would be the thing that would close the door because people didn't want to have a photograph. They wanted their privacy respected, um, culturally, maybe [00:39:00] it really meant something to them to not be in a photograph and, or to have their children photographed.
So I, I think there's that, that aspect of having a photographer. And then there's also the idea of being present, which I was going to run a trip in Peru that didn't get to happen during the pandemic. But I, I was not going to allow people to have their phones out or cameras out except for very limited parts.
And we had a photographer coming because I wanted people to be
In it.
Yeah,
So I wanted to talk to you about what your motivations were are behind the professional photographer.
Zoe: so that sort of circles back to um my own experiences informing my business because nothing is as valued a souvenir to me as my photographs. Um, I am a total addict now that we've co hosted with some influencers. I can like compare the number of photos in my phone to theirs, and it's [00:40:00] appalling how many I have in comparison.
Like my pictures from my travels mean the world to me. And they're kind of like the best souvenir because they're capturing those moments. However, there is certainly a Style through our current social media, ethics, culture, whatever you want to call it, that creates a lot of distance from being in the moment.
So this notion of having a professional photographer on a tour kind of presents two opportunities. For those who want to turn their devices off and be on vacation for a full week and still go home with a, you know, professional caliber photo set, they can. And for those who are insta addicts, no shame, I'm one of them, and they want to be posting in real time for the people back home, they do get an album nightly.
But what I found is in either [00:41:00] instance people tend to put their phone down. their phones away because they know the pictures are being captured. And there's less of a, oh my gosh, am I like, I can't miss the shot. Um, they know someone's there with a camera getting the shot. Uh, so it has inadvertently for two completely different types of travelers created a similar, and that's not to say that people don't take pictures, they do, but I find that there's, um, certainly less, emphasis than there would be otherwise.
Christine: Yeah, I think it's such an interesting way to create, yeah, just another conversation or another piece of awareness. Um, well, I want to get to why I found you in the first place was your, we talked a little bit about your group travel experiences. Um, and the trips that you were running that are really focused on body, physical health.
Positive travel. And, um, as I was reading a little bit more about you and thinking about this conversation, I remember reading something [00:42:00] about, you know, when you're traveling in Spain or Italy or certain parts of Europe where, um, so I'm 5'10 I, I guess I would be considered plus size by some worlds. Um, I will feel uncomfortable in, in a swimsuit at this point in my life, more so than I would have in the past. But I remember the first time I went down to the pool with my daughters when I was in Spain and we traveled for like five months together. And I was like, I feel great here. I do not feel the same. I feel in other places to look and be a certain way in my swimsuit this is something I maybe was aware of but not I just hadn't experienced that before.
And then a few other places we went and by the end of the trip I was just like, I don't even care. And it's not a worry and my experience is so freeing for me. And I think that's why when I saw the trips that you're [00:43:00] creating with that intentional acceptance and inclusivity and thought. I just thought, oh my gosh, this is really incredible.
And it's also just this beautiful statement of allowing women to be who they are without any pretense. Like that allows I would think the connection and the engagement and the experience to be so different. So this is what I want to jump into. I want to talk about where that came from for you and then what, how that's been received by travelers and other people in the, in the travel community.
Zoe: So, um, your experience in Spain was my experience in Italy as well. And this was before I knew I was staying here. Um, much like, you know, if I went to Jamaica for a week or something like that in my previous Canadian life, the first day getting all of the accoutrement and the jewelry and all of the trappings to distract, [00:44:00] um, and by the end of the trip, maybe you're a little bit more comfortable.
You're just like the shock of it is gone. Um, it was sort of like that times tenfold when I moved to Italy and my Philosophy on this was that the sea and swimming is part of the lifestyle here in a way that most of us North Americans aren't used to. And even for the, you know, people who live in California or our beach side, things like that.
Um, the media is doing something very different. So sort of the bottom line was that no one, especially on a 40 degree summer day. It's going to deprive themselves of getting in the sea or getting in a bathing suit just because of the way they feel. And there's certainly standards here. Some of them are more antiquated than what, you know, the needle has moved to in North America.
But it really is self driven. You [00:45:00] know, if I was. a 21 year old girl dating, I might be in a different, you know, camp, but for our travelers who generally skewer in their thirties, who are like single, not single, traveling alone, traveling with a friend, a family member, something like that. I think the biggest opportunity that these size inclusive trips are is In the community, you know before you get here that everyone has signed up for this trip and to be honest at times Some people are signing up for it because the dates work well for them, right?
But they still know that they're coming to a size inclusive trip and we were very deliberate. Um, I say we it was my first collaborator christina winkelmann And I about naming these trips like i'm a fat person Um But we didn't want it to just be about fat travel. It really is about inclusivity.
Everyone has hangups [00:46:00] getting into a bathing suit. Um, and it, knowing who you're showing up for or showing up with dispels a lot of anxiety, I think, you know, I can't. put a protective bubble around my travelers, would that I could, um, but we can set certain values and let it be known that this is the standard to which we're holding each other and the greatest compliment I can give my travelers or maybe the pat on the back I can give those of us who are working on projects like these is that it sort of goes without saying and everyone is comfortable with one another.
We're gently monitoring situations to make sure it remains as comfortable an environment as the one we intended. I can think of one occasion in three years that we've been running these trips that we're like, [00:47:00] okay, You know, maybe a third strike might merit a soft conversation. Didn't come to that. Um, so really it just creates, like you say, you dispel with some of the initial, like we all have our hangups.
I could be embarrassed or shy or a little like slow to bloom about any number of things that have nothing to do with my body. But that's a big one. It's a big one. And we're taking that. barrier off the table and as you say like it forges friendships quicker, um, it cuts through the bullshit faster and it just makes people more comfortable just to like know what the parameters of the community or the experience is going to be.
And then where I can, I'm working really hard in the background to make sure You know, if on day one, I meet someone who would benefit from a chair with no arms, I'm doing what I can to ensure that the restaurant I've booked [00:48:00] on day four has a chair with no arms, that kind of thing. But that's between me and that's the like under the water swan stuff that the travelers don't see.
Christine: Yeah, I'm sure it's recognized, especially for travelers that that might be the reason why they were afraid of this kind of experience in the past or intimidated to put themselves into that experience. I, I think, um, it's really beautiful to have that. that intention behind it. I just was thinking as you were talking of this trip, I led in Alaska and it's a place that's off grid.
And so there's no running water. Um, you take a shower in Fairbanks before you leave and you don't take one again until you get back. That's something that some women are like, nope,
but it's interesting. It's not often not the case. Nope, because [00:49:00] I don't, I need a shower every day. For some people it is, obviously. But it's like I won't be able to uphold a standard of beauty that I feel like I might need to maintain in a group of women. And like, we would get there and, uh, Like my dear friend traveled with me and she's like I took my bra off and I'm not putting it back on until we leave And I was like, oh, yeah, this is a trip I'm here for and you know by the end like we all have like messy hair and we're wearing our ski hats and Like just the level of like all of that stuff off Yeah, I think we don't realize consciously how much energy that takes. And I know that's not what you know, you're saying is happening, but I think there would be some element of that, that barrier being removed or that energy also being released just in knowing that no one's expecting you to show up anyway, other than you are. And like even if I'm packing to go to Paris or [00:50:00] something, all of a sudden, I think I'm the woman who has the perfect pair of jeans and the right blazer and the perfect blouse and the perfect earrings, which today I'm wearing like my t shirt, right?
That's the woman I really am. But when I'm traveling, all of a sudden I think I'm going to magically be, you know, sex in the city or something, you know? Yeah. And so I just, I'm wondering like for you, how much of any of that was behind it or what kind of conversations were you having or hearing that made you realize this was something that's necessary?
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Zoe: Um, well, I guess it's also the reason why our trips are for self identifying women and non binary folks comfortable in female spaces. Like, love men, person, like, I'll plan a trip for honeymooners, for a group of brothers, a family, no problem. But. I remember being a traveler on a group trip with couples as a single woman and it changes the dynamic.
It changes the way [00:51:00] you look and present yourself and interact with people. It's just a different vibe that when women show up together. And I think that The size inclusivity or the queer inclusive trips. They're just another layer of that where All of our travelers are very different. Some of them have very different experiences life experiences that they hail from different States education, whatever that may be as well.
But when you know that this group has signed up to show up for something like this, and there is that sort of mutual level playing field, like, some people are still fashion plates, some people are nothing but like, Sweatpants gals. God bless each and every one of them. Um, but they all know we're not here to dress for men.
We're not here to socialize with men. We're not here to worry about [00:52:00] how we look in a swimsuit or um, ordering a second portion at dinner. Because this is community, I like, I wish I had a better way to express it, but I think it's true of every community, like, there's ways that I relate to Canadians, and there's ways I relate to Jews, and there's ways that I relate to Glasgow graduates, and yet I'm nothing like any of them, but when I walk into those communities, Just like when I walk into a group of fat women or women that are sensitive about size, inclusive, or representation issues, I might not have anything in common with them, but I know that we share a value.
And that is incredibly powerful and that alleviates one layer of Not only like will we connect or connectivity but like we actually connect on something that's pretty important in my [00:53:00] life to me um And it forges some really amazing bonds Even
Christine: and accepting in an area that's usually one of our tenderest spots, right? And that's just like, so I think so important. And I think like you were saying, groups of, Women, I think it's even more important just because there's so many spaces where that's not allowed or in our lives that it hasn't happened.
And we've been excluded for whatever reason. And I think that,
Zoe: if it's just the labor of like Testing the water and making sure that this is a space where it is lab because it might be But you know if I don't know you and you don't know me And you show up looking in your jeans and blazer and your fashion paris outfit Because today you want to make a good impression and I do the same You would have no idea that I'm also a sweatpants and a t shirt girl, and I would have no idea that you're also a sweatpants and t shirt girl, but when there's an unspoken rule that we can both show up in our sweatpants and t shirts, which is also what I've done this evening, I did put [00:54:00] on a necklace just because it's 10 p.
m. here and I didn't want to fall asleep and I needed, you know, a little bit of a perk, but you already know who you're dealing with. into a certain extent, and I think that is the privilege of television, like you create a certain playing field that exists before you even arrive here. So just like I tell my travelers that I want their vacation to start before they leave home, I take care of all the planning, I take care of all the question marks, and you know how much time a savvy traveler puts into planning their vacation.
So just like they can expect a certain level of ease before they even leave their homes, they can be confident that Before they even leave their homes. They don't need to test the water. They don't need to like, spend the first two days pulling that information and that bonding. They know, okay, if she's shelling out X amount of money to be here, just like me.
This must be important to her too. could just enjoy Italy together.
Christine: [00:55:00] yeah, I love it so much. It's like, uh, one of my, one of my groups as well, like they are like, it's, you're arriving like into a hug instead of that,
Zoe: I love that.
Christine: spot, right? Like of, of, not being sure where you fit in or how things are going to feel. Like you just, you just arrive like settled and embrace, like you feel welcomed.
And I just think it's really important.
Um,
Zoe: is what it is.
And it lets you show up as your full self on day one. Instead of finding out is it okay for me to be me in this environment.
Christine: Yeah. And what a gift to get to be in a room full of people who are their full selves. Because I think that's when also big magic happens. And when you're traveling in a group of women to see everybody just lit up is like, and I'm sure you know, as someone who curates those experiences, like witnessing that is just like the five star moments.
Like,
Zoe: I mean, I almost, I almost had this [00:56:00] like idea of a business and I was like, I want to do this thing. I think I'll be good at it. I didn't fully appreciate as foolish as this sounds in retrospect, how it would change my life, how it would evolve my own self discovery. And. acceptance and the relationships that I would form.
Like, you know, I'm professional, of course, but um, it's amazing. It's amazing that when you offer people the chance to be themselves, when they're coming to you because they want your version of Italy, what that creates and what that does for our relationships as well. It's been such a privilege.
Christine: yeah, I think so many entrepreneurs. create, especially in travel, I've noticed, and especially amongst women, create the space we needed, whether we knew it or not. And we create the space that we needed to heal in or to grow in. And we're like, Oh, you get d You go, like you said, you get a little further in and you're [00:57:00] like, Oh, I see what I did there.
That was good.
Zoe: Shame of me for not realizing I was doing this all along, but yeah, absolutely.
Christine: Yeah. Um, well, one more thing I just wanted to talk about really quick before we get to our rapid fire questions, um, especially in celebrating women. I love your blog series that you have that it's women doing cool shit in Italy. I was like, I love this. So I just want to talk about that a little bit.
Zoe: Okay, so I actually um that is going to be moving on to social media because my ADHD brain Sometimes gets caught up in it has to be this this that and the next thing and the blog posts are fantastic But that means that the social content doesn't always go live if the blog post isn't ready and perfect So we are taking that series and we're moving it on to social for 2025 because like you I love it I think it's fun and it's what i'm interested in and it's who I want to introduce my travelers to The woman doing cool shit in italy
Christine: Yeah, I think it's great. And it's [00:58:00] just, it's a fun resource and it's a great way. I mean, we meet so many people when we travel and I think like for me, you know, I'm a celebrating those people, even just in a moment, it's, it's really important. And so this is a fun way that you can just celebrate those people and, and bring them out into the world through.
Zoe: For some people, I mean, one of the people I put a spotlight on is my former next door neighbor slash landlord, who's a jewelry designer, and some people want to come to Italy and buy a tchotchke, and some are like, no, I'd rather shop somewhere meaningful. But in another country that I wouldn't have access to back home and they bought her things and other people have met Courtney Mills, a opera singer who performs for our groups.
She's currently on an incredible stage show in Puglia, like a world acclaimed soprano. And I know they're still in touch. I know that they're still like, They have developed that interaction into a friendship. So the [00:59:00] women you meet, like, they're a blog post, they're a social media post, and they're also, you know, your friends, your vendors, like, the people you would relate to in your hometown that are here.
And it's a really, a privilege to be able to, like, shine a light on the amazing things they're doing and introduce them to my travelers.
Christine: Yeah. Thank you so much for, for doing that. And I just, I love that.
Okay. We're to the rapid fire end of our conversation. So what are you reading now?
Zoe: I am actually going back to The Birth of Venus by Sarah Dunant. It takes place in Medieval Florence. I was in Florence last week with a very, very special and difficult to get ticket to see The Secret Michelangelo Rooms and it inspired me to pick up this book from my adolescence about Medieval Florence.
Christine: I love that. What is always in your suitcase or backpack when you travel?
Zoe: Contact lenses. [01:00:00] Um, and I mean, my, my internal embarrassment as a travel entrepreneur is I need to become a better packer. So really I have one of everything. I like the home comforts, but miniature size for sure. That relieves
Christine: packing only somehow gets worse every year and I don't understand why.
Zoe: me. I was like, I really should improve. The one thing that's changed is I now I travel so much that I kind of like have a go bag of like, I don't even unpack. I don't even like duplicate. I just have the like toiletries. Serums, all of that just ready to go where I can grab it and put it in there.
Christine: Yeah. Um, to sojourn is to travel somewhere as if you live there. Where is some place that you would still love to sojourn? Mm
Zoe: Sojourn is to travel as if, I mean the highest on my personal travel list is Japan. That's a trip that I've been waiting 15 years to do because I want to do it right. I want to do it with like a [01:01:00] bankroll in my pocket for three weeks. I want to do it right. Um, could I see myself living there? I don't know.
I've never been there.
Christine: hmm.
Zoe: That's high on my wish list for sure.
Christine: Yeah. What is something you eat that will immediately connect you to a place you've been? Mm
Zoe: Ooh, that's a great question. Um, this one's hard because I'm from Toronto, which is the most international city in the world. And so many food memories bisect their way through Toronto's amazing culinary scene. But I would say a dish that like, Maybe it's Sicily, um, like the granita that can't be replicated.
The Sicilian sweets, they're sweet too from the way they do them there. It's just, I leave my heart in Sicily, not just because their sweets are delicious, but also because their sweets are delicious. So let's say Sicilian granita.
Christine: Um, it just reminded me, my daughter, one of the things that she [01:02:00] most remembers from our travel experience. We were in Austin and, um, she got the gelato that they put in the like brioche bun and then like seal back up. I don't know if that's super typical or not, but she's like, mom, this is like French toast and gelato and like all of the magic things, and it's like hot on the outside and cool on the inside, and I don't know how it
Zoe: How old would she have been at that stage? Yeah, I can imagine and like my 13 year old self would have thought I'd hit the jackpot So the most typical version of that is actually sicilian granita more than a gelato So, um, Forgive me sicilians but for those who don't know a sicilian granita is like if you can imagine the consistency of like 7 Eleven slushie, but make it artiginale and delicious and they would never use anything that 7 Eleven had ever heard of or touched.
Um, because Sicilian summers are so hot that they will have, [01:03:00] um, granita and brioche for breakfast. And so her gelato sandwich is really a granita. You either dip or you put it in there. Yeah.
Christine: Yeah. Oh my gosh. That would also, I'm sure be one of her favorite food groups. So she'll have to put that on her list.
Yeah.
Um,
Zoe: years and then send her my way. She'll be a, she'll be a television traveler.
Christine: I mean, she will absolutely, she cannot wait. Um, let's see who was a person that inspired or encouraged you to set out to travel the world?
Zoe: Um, maybe my dad, though he did it inadvertently, but he, and my mom as well, obviously created this life that, and he, he just traveled for work so much. This is maybe why he comes to my head first, but he, he was going places and I wanted to go them too. He wasn't scared to move. Like I moved for university, not knowing anyone.
And. My parents kind of regretted creating children [01:04:00] that had no fear to hop oceans, but they were the example. So,
Christine: Yeah. If you could take an adventure with one person, fictional or real, alive or past, who would it be?
Zoe: um, Okay, so many, but the first person that's coming to mind is Tracee Ellis Ross, the actress. I just think she's like a fucking badass. She obviously knows luxury and is really affirming in her single woman take on the world empowerment. But at the same time, through all her interviews, she really gives me the instinct that She wants to dive deep and she, um, I think we'd make good travel buddies.
Why not?
Christine: Yeah, why not? If it can be anyone, you get to pick, so.
Zoe: I mean at my dinner party, there'd be a lot of people but uh, she would always she'd be one of them And she's who came to mind. So
[01:05:00] sorry, i'm ruining your lightning round
Christine: No, it's okay. They're never, I call them rapid fire ish. It's always more ish than rapid. Um, the last question, uh, who is one woman in the travel industry you admire and would love to recognize here in this space?
Zoe: Um I'm going to say ronnie chima. She owns chima's travels and she really Leads with her values as well and what she does. Um, just really interesting tours has had a really interesting journey. Um, I've never heard of someone else auditioning travelers. Like she will call people to make sure they're a good fit.
And I think that's ballsy and brilliant. And, um, we haven't chatted in a while, but in those early imposter syndrome days, she was a resource and I really appreciate her for that.
Christine: Yeah,
Zoe: beautiful things.
Christine: I do still have [01:06:00] application for my sojourns as well.
Zoe: Good for you.
Christine: Yeah, I just I'm curious. And even more than making sure everyone's a harmonious fit, like, I also want to make sure the trip is what they what they think. And, and, like, I want to understand what they're looking for. And, and if this isn't like that moment, or maybe I just want to make sure it's right for them.
And, um, And the group. So yeah, that's part of
Zoe: I mean, who knows? Like I said, had no assholes, but maybe my first asshole and I'll change my tune and I'll
get Ronnie
Christine: Uh, I think when you are really, like you said, calling in your people, like that's who shows up and I would wanna trust that. But I also know women that have been in the industry a lot longer than I am, and they have the horror stories that make me like, leave that on my website. Um, but regardless, that's a, a funny place for us to go ahead and end this conversation.
Zoe: off the podcast. I've got this that we can go to,
um, entrepreneur to entrepreneur.
Christine: [01:07:00] Yeah. Well, thank you so much for being here. I'm, I'm so glad that we finally made this happen.
Zoe: Me too. Me too. And yeah, I look forward to seeing how things unspool for you and definitely give me a shout if you are in Italy, we have some big things coming in 2025.
Christine: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I wanted to make sure we'll put it in the show notes, but if you can just tease like one, what's your favorite thing coming in 2025.
Zoe: Um, well, we have announced our returning Sicilian trip, but there's a new Sicilian routes landing, and that's all I can tease for now. Okay.
Christine: we need.
Zoe: Thank you.
You can find me on Facebook at Lotus Sojourns on Facebook, or join the Lotus Sojourns Collective, our FB community, or follow me on Instagram either @lotussojourns or @souloftravelpodcast. Stay up to date by joining the Lotus Sojourns mailing list. I look forward to getting to know you and hopefully hearing your story.
