Episode 218 - Dr. Rachel Graham, MarAlliance
In this episode of Soul of Travel, Season 6: Women's Wisdom + Mindful Travel, presented by @journeywoman_original, Christine shares a soulful conversation with Dr. Rachel Graham.
Dr. Rachel T. Graham is the founder and Executive Director of the international non-profit MarAlliance. Dr. Graham is an award-winning marine conservation scientist with over 30 years living in Central America and experience in development, environment and marine projects in Latin America, Africa, and Oceania. She and her team work towards win-win strategies to rewild the seas with endangered marine wildlife while improving local knowledge, livelihoods, and leadership capacities, notably to improve the sustainability of small-scale fisheries and wildlife tourism to build resilience in the face of impacts such as pandemics and climate change.
Dr. Graham’s work is widely published and showcased in the international media (NatGeo, BBC, CNN…). Her innovative and collaborative work set standards and critical baselines to measure marine wildlife populations, and led to conservation and policy wins, notably the creation and expansion of protected areas, marine species protection, and a first with the ban of fishing nets in Belize. In 2011, she won the Whitley Fund for Nature Gold Award for her work with sharks and communities; in 2021, a prestigious Pew Marine Fellowship for work on hammerhead sharks and communities, and in 2022, received Oceana’s Ocean Hero Award in Belize and The Explorer’s Club EC50 award. She is most proud of her two sea-loving boys and her diverse and talented team at MarAlliance.
The Foundation of Community-Based Conservation
Dr. Graham's approach to marine conservation is deeply rooted in her unique upbringing. Born to Peace Corps parents who met in Sierra Leone, she inherited a profound understanding of cross-cultural collaboration. As she explains, "I got handed a set of really excellent genes from my parents," who demonstrated the importance of breaking barriers between cultures and religions - values she's carried deeply into her marine conservation work. After her parents spent time in West Africa and beyond, her father was called back to the United States into the DC area, where the young family decided to follow their passion for travel, science, and conservation all the way to Tunisia. “That opened so many doors…and that really got me bit with the bug for traveling and exploring and discovering, and my love of the sea.”
One of the most powerful quotes that encapsulates her philosophy comes early in the conversation: "If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go with others." This sailing saying perfectly captures her collaborative approach to conservation. She emphasizes that while individual efforts might create quick wins or international splashes, Rachel understood very early on in her career that lasting conservation success requires deep community engagement.
Transforming Fishing Communities Through Collaboration
Dr. Graham shares a remarkable success story from Belize, where she worked with local fishermen to transform whale shark fishing into sustainable tourism. Rather than imposing external solutions, she focused on:
Creating partnerships with local fishermen
Developing training programs for former fishers to become tour guides
Establishing community-led monitoring systems
Facilitating knowledge sharing between fishing communities across countries
The result was transformative: "It generated millions of dollars in tourism in Belize," she notes, while creating a template for community-based whale shark tourism that has been replicated worldwide.
Indigenous Knowledge and Conservation
A crucial aspect of Dr. Graham's work is her recognition and elevation of local expertise. She speaks passionately about the importance of acknowledging what she calls "PhDs of the sea" - the deep ecological knowledge held by local fishing communities. This respect for indigenous wisdom has led to more effective conservation efforts and stronger community buy-in.
She shares a powerful example where a respected local fisherman's assessment of declining fish populations carried more weight with his peers than any external scientific report could have: "Within the next 20 minutes, they had all picked up their anchors and they had left because they said, 'Why are we here? We trust him.'"
Tourism as a Conservation Tool
Dr. Graham discusses how thoughtfully designed tourism can strengthen conservation efforts. She emphasizes the importance of creating transformational experiences that connect people with marine life. Speaking about whale shark encounters, she shares: "I love to see people coming out of the water back onto a boat in absolute tears of joy because for that moment you realize... you are not the biggest, you're not the best in the world. You are part of the sea."
These powerful experiences create conservation advocates out of tourists, expanding the network of people invested in protecting marine ecosystems.
Empowering Women in Marine Science
One of the most inspiring initiatives discussed is the groundbreaking work with Guna women in Panama. In an area where reefs hadn't been monitored in 22 years, Dr. Graham's team is training the first-ever Guna women scuba divers to conduct scientific assessments. This project is revolutionary in multiple ways, including breaking gender barriers in traditional communities, creating new professional opportunities for Indigenous women, and ensuring and establishing local leadership and monitoring systems. "The best bit out of it is now we have a large cohort of next-gen Guna women who can lead this monitoring and even the tourism moving forward," she explains.
The Urgent Need for Shark Conservation
The conversation concludes with a sobering discussion about the state of global shark populations. Dr. Graham reveals that "over 37% of them are actually threatened with extinction," among the 1,200 known species of sharks and rays. She emphasizes the critical role these apex predators play in maintaining healthy marine ecosystems.
Throughout the conversation, Dr. Graham presents a compelling model for modern conservation that:
Centers local communities and Indigenous knowledge
Creates sustainable economic alternatives through tourism
Empowers women in science and conservation
Builds cross-cultural understanding and collaboration
Focuses on long-term sustainability rather than quick wins
Her work demonstrates that effective conservation isn't just about protecting species - it's about creating systems where communities thrive alongside the natural world they help protect. As she puts it, her role has evolved to "facilitate the move towards more sustainable fisheries... and facilitate the growth of new professionals, of fisher leaders and more."
This conversation provides a masterclass on how conservation efforts can succeed through genuine collaboration, respect for local knowledge, and commitment to community empowerment. It's a powerful reminder that the future of marine conservation lies not just in protecting species, but in nurturing the human connections that make that protection possible and sustainable.
“We’re not out here to change the world. We’re trying to answer a few questions… So if you’re able to co-create a science that merges your traditional or what you call orthodox science with traditional knowledge, it’s a win-win situation. And from there, you’ve built bridges and you’ve built partnerships, understanding. And from that, all kinds of other questions come out.”
Soul of Travel Episode 218 At a Glance
In this conversation, Christine and Rachel discuss:
· The importance of collaboration and involving local communities and fishermen in marine conservation
· The ways she brings purpose, nature and connection into developing conservation programs
· How tourism can be designed to strengthen conservation efforts
· Efforts to get women more involved in science & conservation and SCUBA diving in Guna Yala, Panama
Join Christine and Dr. Rachel Graham now for this soulful conversation.
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Related UN Sustainable Development Goals
Sustainable Development Goal #3: Ensure healthy lives and promote well-being for all at all ages.
Sustainable Development Goal #5: Achieve gender equality and empower all women and girls.
Sustainable Development Goal #12: Ensure sustainable consumption and production patterns.
Sustainable Development Goal #14: Conserve and sustainably use the oceans, seas and marine resources for sustainable development.
Sustainable Development Goal #17: Strengthen the means of implementation and revitalize the Global Partnership for Sustainable Development.
Resources & Links Mentioned in the Episode
Learn more about MarAlliance and connect with Rachel: https://www.maralliance.org
Connect with Rachel on your favorite social media network! Instagram / Facebook / LinkedIn
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Soul of Travel honors the passion and dedication of people making a positive impact in the tourism industry. In each episode, you’ll hear the stories of women who are industry professionals, seasoned travelers, and community leaders. Our expert guests represent social impact organizations, adventure-based community organizations, travel photography and videography, and entrepreneurs who know that travel is an opportunity for personal awareness and a vehicle for global change.
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Soul of Travel Episode 218 Transcript
Women’s travel, transformational travel, sustainable travel, social entrepreneurship
Christine: welcome to Soul of Travel podcast. I'm your host, Christine, and today I have a really special guest that I'm excited to bring to the podcast. Um, Dr. Rachel Graham is joining us and we're going to be talking about sea conservation and, um, we're also gonna be able to be pulling in community and, um.
Gender equity and all of these other things that are really important notes here on the podcast. So I am really looking forward to this conversation. Um, before we begin, I'm gonna just share a little bit about our serendipitous meeting. Um, we were at the Adventure Travel World Summit in Panama and we are at the Conservation Fund breakfast.
And I was like, I have to go to this breakfast. I'm going to get up early. I don't care because I really want to see, hear Dr. Rachel Graham speak. And I was like, if there's any way possible, I hope I meet her. And I like walk into the room, set up my stuff, come back and there's someone sitting next to me and I was like, oh, excuse me, I'll just.
Sneak in here, and then I realize it's you and we start having this great conversation and I was like, what is the luck? Like the one person who I really hoped I would be able to find time to have a conversation with, like we sat right next to each other and hit off with like such great conversation prior to you speaking.
So I'm, I'm so grateful that the universe thought that that was important to make happen, and I'm happy to have you here today.
Rachel: It's such a pleasure to be here, and thanks so much and thank you for sitting next to me because I, I had nerves and you just, you just made me feel completely at home and, uh, it was a, it was a brilliant morning. I had so much fun, and it was such a wonderful audience. I mean, I, I'm very grateful to the a TWS for, for inviting me, so it's brilliant.
Yep.
Christine: Yeah. Thank you. It was such a good conversation, and like I said, I, I can't wait to bring that here. Um, but before we begin, Rachel, I'm just gonna have you introduce yourself and tell my listeners a little bit more about who you are and the work that you do at Mar Alliance. Okay.
Rachel: So, um, I am a marine conservation scientist. I was actually just generally speaking, a biologist before I started out in zoology. Really focused on wildlife and, uh, kind of moved and incorporated other aspects of, uh, biology, working in forests and more, and then really focused a lot of my efforts. 28. Where are we really Almost getting on to 30 years ago on the marine realm.
Working with, uh, large marine wildlife and, um, by those I mean sharks, rays, turtles, big fin fish, all these iconic species that inspire people to visit the sea and, and have that connection with nature.
Christine: Um, and I, I love this in the, this conversation in the context of travel as well, because I do think, like you said, this is a huge. Reason why a lot of people travel. And I also think it's a, an incredible gateway to like citizen science and conservation because so many people have this nostalgia for the sea or have this love of, you know, sea life.
And so it's, it's like this great bridge for these important conversations. So I, I think this is, is a great way to kind of bring those two pieces together. Um, before we get into talking about what you do today, I'd love to hear from you a little bit of your background. Like, when were you, when did you fi first like, find yourself drawn to travel to science and conservation?
And what sparked that interest for you?
Rachel: Well, I, I believe I really got, I got handed a, a set of really excellent genes from my parents. Uh, my father was actually a, I guess a first Gen Peace Corps who went off to west, a Sierra Leone, west Africa, where he met my mom, who's a Brit, doing, uh, voluntary service overseas, which is like the British equivalent of the American Peace Corps.
And, um, what happens when you're in your twenties and you have shared pursuits, you fall in love and, and they got married in Sierra Leone and then beatled around. West Africa and, uh, Morris Minor. And, um, I was still not quite on the scene at that point, but they were very adventurous and exploring everything, et cetera, until he got a telegram, which basically told him, you know, you need to get back to the states asap.
Your father is unfortunately dying. So he, uh, he brought my mom back over to the States when. And in the Washington DC area when it was still a lot of segregation, you know, a lot of misogyny. My mom was all about, you know, Beatles and Suede miniskirts and all the rest. Um, and so I was born out of that, uh, out of that marriage.
And we didn't stay very long in Washington DC because they realized they were, they just were enamored with Africa, which is a massive continent and so varied right from northeast West, south and central. And, uh, they were bitten by the bugs. So it wasn't too long after that we had the opportunity to move to North Africa, Tunisia, and we, I.
Flew through Iceland to Frankfurt where we picked up a pop-up top VW camper. We beatled, uh, I guess, I guess we room broomed all the way from Frankfurt down to Sicily, at which point we took a ferry over to Tunisia during the horrible winter choppy waters. It was not a, a very good start to our stay in Tunisia, but, um, that opened so many doors to the reb, so North Africa and many other places that, you know, many people hadn't really, uh, explored very thoroughly.
And, uh, that really got me bit with the bug for traveling and exploring and discovering, and also my love of the sea.
Christine: Yeah, I feel like that's a, a region that not many people hear about or talk about or think about or maybe think about in the context of being adjacent to the sea. I know I have a friend that has done a lot of work in Tunisia in the past, probably five or 10 years, but you know, certainly 15, 20, 30 years ago, people, I don't think it was a, a country that many people are familiar with.
So I always think that is interesting when you have such a, um, unexpected upbringing, I guess from who knows what anyone should expect. But I, I think it's, it really does shift how you see the world because it's such a, a. A way that people have no one else, not many people else have had that same experience.
And so you have a different way of viewing the world. And I think it's always really interesting too when parents have a global perspective and then they take their kids traveling. I think one of the biggest things about that is that you just understand that the world is vast, which seems seemingly simple and yet so many people don't have that perspective because when you just stay in one place and you don't have the ability to travel as much, it's, it's harder to understand how big the world is and how different the world is.
Like we kind of overlay our own experience over top of everybody else's. And it seems a little homogenous till you get out there and you're like, whoa, there are very many different cultures, ecosystems, environments, foods, et cetera. And I think that's a one of those things that really shapes people that have those experiences young.
Rachel: I, I completely concur. And as an only child, um, I, I guess creativity, I was curious. I, I, they fostered creativity. I met a ton of people. I didn't have an opportunity to be shy, so I got to meet so many people during the travels. And with that comes. Comes a lot of compassion and empathy and ability to actually step into the shoes of others, understand other people's viewpoints.
And that's what circles back to what you were talking about in terms of that kind of worldview, that ability to see a world as much bigger and to bring, to really better understand and be part of a whole host of different cultures. And for that, I am ever eternally grateful to my parents because, um, that those were very.
So there were many defining years for me, and, and I think it kind of set out that ethos of, of working locally, uh, building those partnerships locally and again, that sense of compassion and breaking of barriers between cultures and between religions and more, um, for which I'm, I'm ever grateful and, and aspects and so many aspects of which I've taken into my work as a marine conservation scientist.
Moreover, working with, uh, some of the species that are actually quite reviled in the work in the world, and those are the sharks and rays of the world.
Christine: Yeah. Um, I definitely have questions about. Sharks that we're gonna get to later, but as you were talking, um, I really, the, the next thing I wanted to talk to you about is this real focus on collaboration and community. Um, and I can, I can see from what you were just saying, how, I guess maybe instinctive that is in a way that it might not be for others who didn't have the idea of, or didn't have the experience of understanding community, um, through the lens of like, I guess belonging to a community.
So many travelers kind of are disconnected from destinations when they travel there, whereas I think once you understand where you're going as someone else's home and community, then it's so much easier to then ask questions or engage or interact differently. And then if you're looking at that from a perspective of conservation, then you also know that that's the place you have to start.
To create change. And I know when you were talking in Panama, like that was a, a major theme was collaboration and connection and kind of getting past the idea of the way a lot of organizations maybe like kind of drop in parachute into a place and like, here's the ways we do things. This is what we think is great, here's what we think would improve the situation.
Um, instead of doing that, really starting with the people there and saying, you know, what do you need? How can we support your work? Like letting locals be the experts where they are instead of us assuming that we have some authority or experience that, that we don't have. So I really wanna talk about collaboration and why that's important to successful conservation in your opinion.
Rachel: I would, I, I love to talk about this topic and I'll tell you there's uh, there's that wonderful sailing saying of, if you wanna go fast, go alone. If you wanna go far right, go with, go with others. And that's very much the case with conservation. You can get some great wins if, you know, you drop it and you do your work and you get your results and everything like that.
You can have a big splash internationally and all the rest, but what is that gonna mean in the greater scheme of things? Um, is that really going to ensure that you're gonna have the conservation of species or of a site that's going to benefit not only species, but those who depend upon the site or the species over the long term?
Very likely not. Um, so, so I am very much enamored with, okay, let's have conversations. Let's see. And it might be driven immediately by, uh, folks from communities who contact us and say, Hey, you know, we've got this question. We don't understand why this is going on, and we think that that's, but we'd really like to kind of figure it out and we'd like to reach out to you because we know you believe in kind of co-creation and partnership style work.
Um, it might be that way. It might be through other work that we've done. And then we just ask questions of what's happening with. This particular, what's happening with these mangroves and why, why all of a sudden are you losing your islands? Or, hey, are you seeing any more of this? What is considered a critically endangered species in another part of the world?
I go, you know, it's really funny. We used to have a lot of them. We don't have them anymore. And we have wondered what's happened to them. And, and then we're like, well, do you wanna, would you like to answer that question? And, um, there's so much wonderful curiosity, desire to know and to put traditional knowledge to the, to the test locally, to validate it locally for local, uh, partners and fishers to validate their knowledge that they have amassed over a lifetime.
I like to say that. Our partners in sea, the, the fishers and, uh, community members. So many of them have PhDs at the sea. That's how much knowledge they've accumulated or more, of course. And so that's basically that approach that kind of helps co-create a project and more, and during this whole process, it's very much having to manage expectations.
We're we're, we're not out here to change the world. We're trying to answer a few questions. And through that will come other things like, um, scientifically validating traditional knowledge. Why would we even need to talk about this when traditional knowledge in, in of itself is a great science? Because a lot of time governments and the way our systems are set up, be they funding and policy decision making.
Often just marginalizes that kind of information. So if you're able to co-create a science that merges, uh, your traditional or well what you call orthodox science with traditional knowledge, it's a win-win situation. And from there you've built bridges and you've built partnerships, understanding. And from that, all kinds of other questions come out.
All kinds of other needs, all kinds of other, um, projects that people would like to undertake. And some of them are within the scope of what we can actually support with and others. We go, you know, much as we would love to support you with maybe an aquaculture project that's outside of the scope of our work, but let us introduce you to others.
Who are the experts in this field? Oh, you are really keen to start a microenterprise that would create own products. Fabulous. Let us introduce you to this other group or organization. And this is really important because we have folks like ourselves, you, me, folks who are able to go to these, you know, big travel conferences who are able to put together these projects.
We have the privilege and the connections and the relationships. And so part of what we do is actually creating the bridges between communities we work with and the folks who can fund. Because ultimately what would be great is that donors and others will fund these communities and these projects directly.
And part of this whole process is also identifying natural leaders. Young folks who want to take the bat on and move, you know, conservation or economic alternatives forward. And so what we try to do is find opportunities for them to grow, to learn, to be stronger leaders, better communicators, get better education, and so on and so forth.
So we move outside of the strict marine science and conservation roles to try and play matchmaker. Where is ne where is needed between donors or other organizations and these communities on the frontline or We try, if it's within our set of skills, we try to actually support with those needs.
Christine: Yeah, I think what sounds to me what, what I, what I was really intrigued by. This kind of way of collaboration is that it's very empowering and also, you know, as you were saying, kind of the bringing indigenous wisdom and that way of life and connection of land forward and making it valuable. And I think that's also really important in general in the world right now is because I think so much of that wisdom, because it doesn't have this inherent modern value is lost because people aren't sure.
If you're trying to figure out how to get ahead in the world and this thing doesn't seem like it has value, then people don't hang onto it. And so I, I love that, that you are talking about how to quantify that value so it becomes a part of this equation that we were kind of talking about. Right. It's a really important thing, and like you've said, these people who have grown up in on the sea and understanding the plant life and the marine life and all of that, that's, that's something that we. You know, as outsiders or even US scientists, it takes a long time for you to even begin to start to amass that knowledge. And so I think that's such a valuable resource. Um, and, and I just love that it is a critical part of what you're looking to do. Um, one of the, the other things that you had mentioned, and this kind of ties this together, but purpose, nature, and connection were pieces that are also a part of this equation.
Rachel: And I also love it because so many people talking about adventure travel or impactful or mindful travel, these are all the things that are the key components of making those travel experiences valuable. Um, but can you talk a little bit more about, um, those pillars, I guess.
So just taking, just taking one little step back, which is that shifting of attitudes and approaches towards something that might have been commonplace for folks and they viewed it in a certain way and never realized that it has far more value in another realm. And I'll, I'll give an example of sharks.
Rachel: So, so for so many tropical country, uh, marine communities, sharks have been animals to be mostly afraid of. Uh, they form the basis of fisheries. Um, the saying for many was, A good shark is a dead shark. And never realizing that actually people will pay thousands upon thousands of dollars. From other countries to come and actually see a live shark.
And so part of the work that we've done is really building up the alternative value of sharks, the non-consumptive value of sharks. And with that shifting the attitudes away from the, you know, good shark is a dead shark to, we wanna protect them, we might still be afraid of them. 'cause there is always that, there's that intrinsic fear.
They are, you know, they're amazing, beautiful animals, but they are wildlife. They're, they're wildlife in the Serengeti of the sea. And you must give them respect as such. Um. But in, in doing so, in that shift of attitude and, and valuation, you see these shifts towards conservation. You see these enrichments of communities that have embraced that shift and moved away from consumption of these species into consumptive, uh, activities.
Not everybody. And so there are caveats here. Tourism is not the panacea for all sites, places, communities, et cetera. You have to have certain elements that are gonna make it, um, attractive to countries and people who have the disposable income to travel to those sites. But I'd say generally speaking, we've seen a massive shift in people towards shark tourism or marine wildlife tourism.
In fact. Wildlife tourism in general is growing exponentially as people are looking. For connection in the world. I mean, it's, it's worth, I understand about 120 billion annually now, and that's terrestrial and marine. And if you look at marine tourism only, so all of the going to resorts and coral reef tourism, shark tourism, uh, cruises as a subset of that, et cetera, we're looking at about 390 billion a year.
And a, according to some of the stats I've been seeing or reading about, is we're looking at anywhere from six to 7 million people are employed in this kind of tourism, especially marine protected area, um, focused tourism. So it's a huge provider of benefits. It's a huge employer. And with that, you see that kind of shift away from non exploitative to, um, I mean from exploitative and, and consumption.
Based use of marine wildlife to, uh, non-consumer based wildlife. And with that, what you're seeing is greater connection. Many opportunities for people to connect directly with the sea, with marine wildlife. And there's a crisis right now, as far as I'm concerned. I see a lot of people are just not connected to nature.
And this is, it's a crisis because I think people are losing themselves by not being connected to nature and. You are seeing a lot of people wanting to go to the sea and have that connection with water. It's been shown many times and especially by a friend, a late friend, Wallace, Jane Nichols, who wrote Blue Mind, that special connection that we do have with water.
Whenever we get in water, we calm down. We're more positive, we feel better. Our heart rate goes down and all of this, we need that. We need that to, to be happy, to be joyful. And I think that that's where both Marine and these incredible wildlife connections can both give us purpose in life and an element that we're increasingly missing.
And that's joy. Joy is so important, and that's why I think you're seeing a growth in this kind of tourism globally. And so myself as a marine conservation scientist, am trying to get communities more ready for this growth, trying to ensure that we're setting some guidelines in place so that this tourism is actually conducted in a sustainable manner, not just for people, but very much for wildlife.
Um, because many of these fe are also threatened with extinction. A lot of people don't realize that many of the species, they want to see those iconic sharks or rays or the turtles, many of them are threatened or critically endangered to extinction. So, um, we have a lot to do to, while we're seeking purpose, while we're seeking connection and joy.
There's a lot that we can do to give back to show the huge value of these species to the communities that depend upon them.
Christine: Mm-hmm. Um, one of the examples that really resonated with me, we talked about when you and I first met our, we both have a deep connection and love of Belize, and one of the projects you worked on there, um, was focused on whale sharks and was a really great example of kind of what you were just talking about, how you can, how tourism and conservation and community can all work together and kind of shift the narrative around something.
Can you, can you share a little bit more about that project?
Rachel: Absolutely. So what was interesting when in 1997 I had heard from colleagues that, um, there was a lot of fishing on what's called a fish spawning aggregation or fish spawning aggregations in the Meso American Reef, which is Mexico, Belize, Guatemala, and. Uh, Honduras. It's the second longest barrier reef in the world after the Great Barrier Reef in Australia.
And the largest portion of that Barrier Reef actually sits in Belize about 250 kilometers long. And there was one particular site in a dog leg in the reef at, in the central part of the country, central, south, southern part of the country that had, um, a huge number of fish that were being landed every March, April, and May of every year.
These were mainly mutton, snappers, Lu, Janis, and Alice and the Fishers, funnily enough were saying, yeah, we're getting some really big sharks too. And of course, being somebody who's loved sharks since they were, since I was three years old, I was like, wait, what? So it was one of these situations where it's like, well, let's find out what's going on with the fishery.
Clearly they're fishing a reproductive spot for fish because fish will come together in large numbers in order to reproduce. And so that's, that's like pilfering your savings account every single year. So it's not a most, it's not a very sustainable way of phish. But we needed to find out much more about what was going on.
And of course, in the back of my mind, I wanted to find out more about the sharks and lo and behold, all of these fish coming together and spawning and releasing eggs in the water, eggs and milk, that, uh, was attracting quite a few whale sharks at that point in 1998. There were very few areas known in the world where you could predictably see whale sharks.
There was very little known. Most of the information was coming from Australia, a little bit from the Philippines, and that was pretty much it. So. That kind of started in definitely me and my colleagues on this path of trying to figure out what's going on with spawning aggregations, how impactful are the fisheries and what is going on with whale sharks?
And I ended up doing my whole doctorate on whale sharks and the, and the, the fisheries. But what was interesting about this is if you're going to be talking to fishers and saying, you know, this is your savings account. Uh, can you fish some other time, some other place you have to provide or figure out an alternative.
So working with them over the years, um, there was no desire to stop fishing. There was maybe a desire to reduce the amount of fishing that they were doing, but they were really looking for decent economic alternatives that would, that would provide around the same cash or more. And that's when, well, let's develop the whale shark tourism.
Because if people know they can see whale sharks and it's the jewel in the crown for any snorkeler or scuba diver worldwide, people will pay thousands of dollars to go to Belize in this tropical shores and barrier reef to see the world's biggest fish. And it really does blow you away when you're in the water with the world's biggest fish.
We talked about purpose, we talked about joy, we've talked about connection. Imagine having all of that bundled up into one single feeling as well as being odd and overwhelmed to the point where, and I love to say this 'cause I've seen it so many times, I love to see people coming outta the water back onto a boat in absolute tears of joy because for that moment you realize, I.
You are not the biggest, you're not the best in the world. You are part of the sea, and there you are swimming alongside the biggest fish in the sea. It's a, it's a, it's a transformational experience. So that got me on the, on the road to creating the first spawning aggregation and whale shark course with fishers and the next gen, transitioning them over to becoming tour guides with a lot of knowledge which they would impart to their guests, who then took that back and shared that with their families and their friends.
It generated millions of dollars in tourism in Belize. And that also set the, almost like a template, not only for the type of research that I started and innovated, but also for how to build community-based. Whale shark tourism in a host of other places in the world that are seeing massive amounts of localized income thanks to predictable whale shark aggregations and the integration of communities in that event, I.
Christine: Yeah, it's such a beautiful example and also one of those experiences that somehow, I don't know why I've poorly timed it every time I've gone to police, but I have yet to experience. Um, but it, that awe I think is something that we talk a lot about in travel, is the thing that I think is a catalyst for so many people.
And where I think also that, um, tourism and conservation can work together because once people have that experience, they're so much more inclined. To wanna be a part of protecting it for others. So then you bring travelers into this conservation equation as well. And I think that's, um, is really powerful.
And, and like you said, having this be so community directed is really important to its overall sustainability. And that's one of the things I loved too when you were talking about is all the engagement with local fishermen and how much they become a part of the success of this. And I know you had shared too, like even bringing fishermen from like Mexico to Belize or Belize to Honduras to talk about things like working with lionfish and like there's all these different ways where the community are the knowledge holders and, and that you like, continue to allow them to be the leaders and the ones sharing the experience.
I feel like that's, that just doesn't happen that often and I feel like it's, um. Again, like very empowering to say like, why would I go and share the knowledge I learned from you with somebody else? I'd rather give you the opportunity. Also, I would imagine that the local fishermen in another country would trust this other fisherman maybe more than you.
But I would love for you to talk a little bit about like what that's looks like and what that, what that has kind of evolved to over the years.
Rachel: Oh, absolutely, and, and you've really. You really brought up a, a wonderful point in terms of working with fishers and, and raising their capacities and just empowering them to become better leaders in their space. More understanding of why one does conservation the way that one does. But there's also another aspect too that I've been integrating and that's, um, to ensure that we keep our commitment, we can keep our commitment with our partner fishers, and we can grow this incredible team and show that conservation and more are actually decent economic alternatives.
All of this co-created sciences, we actually run bespoke and really incredible immersive expeditions, and this goes. Directly back into actually doing the conservation and the scientific work. And it's all led by either myself and my team and the fishers or my team and our Fisher partners. And what's come outta that, and I mentioned this because not only have they over the course of our work in the last 28 years, learn new skills, but new confidence where during these exchanges and during all the work that we do, they get an opportunity to talk to people they would normally never come in contact with.
And in doing so, for example, in, in the Expeditions, for example, they might be talking to a top engineer in Google and they have a phone and they go, wait, I use Google every day. You mean you're with these people And you know, the Google, the Google folks are like, yes, I, I help run this part. When you search for X, that's my job.
And they get so excited. And then you've got these, or for example, you know, they might work for Facebook and they go, oh, I use Facebook all the time. That's amazing. So all of a sudden there's, they, they feel like they're part of a much larger global network. And that's part of it is how do you build these networks?
And from the Google side of things, a beautiful story that I had, I had a, a wonderful, um. Indian Google, Googler, as they call 'em, who came. We have a lot of folks from Google, Facebook, and various other venture capitalists and more who come on these immersive expeditions with the fishers. And they've all had these incredible, authentic experiences.
And these exchanges that go well beyond the time of the expedition, many of them are still in contact on WhatsApp. How's your family? How's things a Google type thing? And these are these incredibly humble fishers, and these are these top-notch engineers and um, and, uh, social media gurus and all the rest.
But in this one case, it was lovely because this young man came and he, he wanted to just be a marine conservationist and, and biologist for a week. So we put him through all the paces with the training. And I, I, I trained everybody at first, but then it was, I. And I trained a lot of the fishers. They train the other fishers, so through exchanges, to other countries, to other sites, et cetera.
And they now train the university students, universities they've never been able to go to because they didn't have the funds or they're only semi literate or more. And here they are training these top executives, these incredible engineers in all these methodologies, including advanced technologies. And the beautiful thing that came out of this particular story was I sat down with them at the end of the week and I said, how did it go?
And he goes, this was so profound growing up in India. My father would never let me ever talk or interact with anybody from that station in life because he was a Brahmin. And, and, and upper class right in, in the Indian culture. And he said, I learned so much. It's true what you say about them having PhDs at the sea.
I learned so much. I had such a connection. I I love to know more about their culture and I'm blown away. And it was transformational. And it's these transformational moments, either with us or just being in the sea where you really meet people from different cultures and you, you immerse yourself in that these are sometimes you're ready for a big change in life.
And we've had a lot of people come to us in that stage and have left their big corporations and have started a whole new chapter in their life. Some have gone on to do masters in marine biology in oceanography. They were. So bowled over by the experience that they had. So it's, and all of this was from a lot of the fishers learning new techniques, willing, generous with their knowledge, as I mentioned, sharing them between countries and the point that you brought up.
Super important, you know, who are they gonna believe more? When somebody says, I hate to say there's not a lot of fish down there when we do our census, I'm concerned you might want to consider maybe modulating your fishing effort. Would they, would it be more impactful coming from me or from a leading fisherman who's.
Gathered the same type of information, et cetera, using a lot of these standardized techniques that we use and just sitting down with them and saying, look, I'm really concerned and why don't you join us and you can see for yourself and I'll train you.
Christine: Yeah.
Rachel: is what's more, and I'll give a story on that.
We were doing fish spawning aggregation assessments. This was at a site in Belize, not the site with the whale sharks, another one. It had been well known for hosting thousands upon thousands of a Caribbean species known as the Nassau grouper. They're beautiful groupers, but they're not Many of them left.
And they had these huge fish spawning aggregations, and they were hit very hard. They were hit so hard that historically they would fish many of these fish. And because there were so many of them that were being fished, the value of the fish dropped significantly. So what the fishers ended up doing was taking the row out of the fish, the f the female gonads, saving those 'cause they had much higher potential for sale and throwing away the fish.
Right? We, we listen to that now and we go, are you kidding me? And that is akin to shark thinning where you slice off the fins off a shark and then you throw the shark alive. Back in the water. Um, just because the fins take up less space in the boat and they're a lot more valuable at 100, $200 a pound versus only $2 a pound for shark meat.
Same thing with the fish. So we were doing these underwater censuses. I was there with my, my partner, traditional Fisher Dan Castanos. And we were swimming by in scuba, a whole host of, we could see hook and line when we had to avoid the hooks so we wouldn't get caught ourselves. And we came up near some of the fishers and we were doing these transects near where there should be thousands of fish.
And we come up and the fishers say, Hey, how's it looking down there? 'cause you know, we're, we don't seem to be getting much biting. And I just didn't say anything because I knew of it came from me. They wouldn't believe me. But when it came from a really top fisher, like Dan, and he said, we counted for Nassau grouper.
And they said, wait, what? And he said, I'm not, I'm not joking. We counted for Nassau grouper. And he says, I'm a fisherman and I'm shocked. I'm really shocked. And literally within the next 20 minutes, they had all picked up their anchors and they had left because I said, why are we, why are we here? We trust him.
So my job is now really to facilitate the move towards more sustainable fisheries, to facilitate marine conservation, to facilitate the growth, um, of new professionals, of fisher leaders and more. And, um. I made a, I might have started out doing a lot of the work and I still train and I still guide and we sit down, we co-create and strategize, but it's really the role of enabling and facilitating all these incredible local leaders, um, local conservationists to be able to do the work.
Christine: Yeah. Um, I just, yeah, I think there's so much to be learned from that across the board, not just in this example, but when we look at creating, uh, tourism experiences in general. So I'm hoping this is like sparking things maybe for people listening that work in the industry and then also for travelers just understanding and witnessing what things look like maybe from behind the scenes.
'cause they might not always have that perspective. Um, when you talk about some of this, um. I guess co-creation and raising leaders and all these different opportunities. One of the things that comes to mind is the thing you shared about the first Una women, scuba divers and this program to really empower women to be involved in science and conservation and promote gender equity and like, let them have a place in being stewards of their ecosystems, which isn't something, um, that they're always given the opportunity to.
So I wanted to, uh, yeah. Jump into talking about that work in the, in Una in Panama.
Rachel: Absolutely. And you know, I, I really, again, I have to go back to my DNA and I'm very thankful to my mom, Christine McCallum because she really promoted a lot of, uh, women micro enterprise projects in Africa and the Middle East and other places. And so, really gave me a view and the confidence, excuse me, gave me the view and the confidence.
Um, two. To really look at things from a gender perspective as well, and to see, to really truly see the injustice and inequalities that you see in, uh, due to gender discrimination and more in all these spaces. You know, back in the nineties, I, I was kind of an anomaly. A woman working with sharks, really in the tropics that was practically unheard of a woman on these small little out outboard pangas with a whole bunch of male fishers.
That's pretty much unheard of. And, um, it, it's interesting to see how that evolved into relationships of great respect on both sides. And interestingly enough, I just wanna make this one comment, which is, I have, I have had more equitable treatment. And kindness and uh, I'd say due to being a woman from community, from communities and traditional fishers, then I have seen from peers, male peers, in the academic arena.
It's been remarkable. So, um, so back to the DNA of really supporting women. I created MAR Alliance in 2014 where women led organization, NGO. We work obviously with a lot of men. We have men as part of our staff as well, but a lot of the leadership are women. And, um, this has been absolutely critical to being able to view situations, uh, opportunities from a very different lens, and also to have access.
In communities and to sites, people that a lot of the time men may not have. So, um, it's, it's also a privilege. You have to be very, very careful because there can be a lot of jealousies Also, you need to be very careful at the community level that, um, community women are not, are not going to interpret it as, oh, you're gonna run off with their, their man, et cetera.
And, and you do have to really constantly watch out for that. I have, I've long briefing sessions with, with, uh, new recruits, um, who are women who work in the communities with us. It's very, very important. Um, so as part of this, not only training up the next gen of scientists, local students, sometimes some female fishers, but there are not that many in Central America it was.
Wonderful to be able to move from working with fishermen in indigenous areas like Panamas Guna, which is known as the Sandblast Islands, but they really love the traditional name of Guna, um, to doing assessments that are led by UNA women. So to give an example, Guna has beautiful reefs. Um, that's why, and they subsist a lot from tourism, people visiting those reefs, these gorgeous islands and more.
But nobody had really monitored those reefs in over 22 years. And the last time there had been a big monitoring that had been conducted. It was from an outside institution, and there were. No women involved, et cetera. And, and so I was thinking, well, it's time. Climate change is changing a lot of the seascape and the coral scape, so let's see how those corals are doing.
But this time we're gonna do it with a twist. How about we find some wonderful, uh, eligible student, uh, UNA students, uh, biologists, but also maybe tour guides and more who would like to be part of this assessment? We provide all of the training, um, and not only in scuba diving because none of them were scuba divers, but also in all the monitoring techniques and then conduct this assessment.
So I'm super proud to say that that assessment was completed in September with the results, and we're now putting those results into reports and papers and more, and it was led by the Una. In their koala, which is their indigenous, autonomous, self-governed area. And we're really looking forward to seeing how this all translates into finding the best spots to help the UNA Congress to identify marine protected areas, uh, to maybe establish some coral restoration projects, to refocus some of the tourism to areas that may be a little less fragile and so on and so forth.
But the best bit out of it is now we have a large cohort of next gen UNA women who can lead this, this monitoring and even the tourism moving forward.
Christine: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I just, um, I'm obviously always really excited when I hear about projects like this where, um, you can bring women into these roles that they don't have, um, access to historically. And I think it's, it's really important, um, to, to expand those opportunities and expand that conversation and to, to kind of. Push the boundaries a little and help shift narratives. I, I think it's, it's, it's always really incredible what happens when I see this happening in different ways around the world. So I, I wanted to highlight that. Um, we don't have much time left, so like, probably in way less time than you'd ever wanna spend talking about sharks.
I wanna talk about, you know, the global efforts in education and conservation that, that you've focused on and why safeguarding shark populations is really so important to marine conservation.
Rachel: So in terms of global efforts, a lot of what we do on the country basis or site basis are contributing to our global knowledge of sharks raise attitudinal change and more. As we started out this whole POD podcast and saying, you know, conservation is not a singular or a solitary endeavor. For it to be successful and sustained, you actually have to have lots of partnerships and go it together with a lot of other folks.
And this is very much the case with all of the work that's being done with sharks and rays around the world because there's a lot of attitudes to change. There's a lot of fisheries that need to be, um, that need to be on sharks that need to be. Change mitigated, made more sustainable so that we can actually ensure that we have sharks in our future.
Why? We have over a thousand, 200 species of sharks and rays. And right now, over 37% of them are actually threatened with extinction per the international Union for the conservation of nature. Um, there are about 350 experts around the world. Uh, myself and several in my team are part of that, uh, group, and we assess populations and the status of all of these many, many species without 1,200 species.
We're finding new ones every month. Some of them pop up at fish markets and remote places. Um, and it's very important because. You can take a few, you can take a few sharks out of a system. Think about a, a, a Jenga, right? For those folks who are who know that game Jenga, where you have the block stacked one on top of the other precariously, and you can take a few out and your tower will stand, but you take too many.
Or let's say if you've color coded your Jenga blocks, you take too many yellow or you take too many red, then all of a sudden that tower will fall. And this is what we're seeing in losing these middle level and these top level predators. Sharks occupy multiple levels in the food chain. It's not all about great white sharks at the top of the food chain.
Not at all. So they really help structure the food chain, the ecosystems in, in our seas. So you can take a few. But you can't take a whole bunch of them without all of a sudden having all these knock-on effects in the ecosystem that are very similar, we think, to removing wolves in, for example, what was it?
Yellowstone was the example. You take away the wolves, you have too many deer. The deer then overgraze. It changes the course of the river, it changes also reforestation, and all of a sudden you have a too many ticks because we know dicks are, uh, deer are tick factories, um, and so on and so forth. So we have a similar system or, or knock on effects in the sea.
The differences that. Everything is being overfished at all levels in the sea. From the krill to the small bait fish, the little herrings all the way to kind of the mid-level predators, the snappers, the groupers, the barracuda to higher levels like some of the smaller or mid-size sharks all the way to the apex.
Hammerheads, great whites, tigers, everything's being fished, which is an overfished. We've lost 90% of our top predators in the sea in the last 50 years. And why is that important to us as people and us in who love to travel? Because when we travel and we go to the sea, this is what we wanna see. We consider that this is part of our connection with wildlife in the sea.
But I really would love for people to remember that, you know, you can't eat it and see it too. So be very mindful of your consumption practices, especially when you're traveling, because I see a lot of folks who go, oh, I can't wait to see the big snappers and goers underwater. Then they don't see them, but then they go to the restaurant and order goer.
So you can't have it both ways, especially when you consider that a lot of these mid-level predators, the top ones even more, don't reach maturity until they're five, six or more years very different from your cat or your dog, and they have very few young that survive to maturity. So that is why a lot of these populations are not bouncing back, and that is why I'm, I'm very respectfully asking people to reconsider their seafood footprint.
If you eat seafood, that's fine. But instead of eating it five days or three days a week, consider it eating it maybe once or once every two weeks. Give them a break. If you give them a break, they will come back and then you'll get something to see when you're in the sea. I.
Christine: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing that. I mean, I think obviously education is such a, a critical part of the work that you do as well, and I think there's so many deeper conversations that. We don't really have with regard to marine conservation. And I, I just think there's so much opportunity.
So I appreciate that. And I also noticed when I was digging around on your website that you had created a metaverse exhibit that is an edu interactive educational resource that looked really, really interesting. So I'm gonna make sure I share that in my show notes. 'cause I think, um, especially for kids, but I'm sure adults as well can learn so much from something like that because I just think. Um, yeah, it's just like the great unknown that's part of the magic of it, but also it's the great unknown and we don't, we need to learn more in order to understand what we're protecting. And again, why so many things we talked about today is, you know, empowering people to share their knowledge and to be a part of the solution.
Um, I also just wanna remind people listening. Um, you mentioned the MA alliance expeditions, um, but that's an opportunity for people to get involved and also, um, that they can donate to MA alliance. To really help you protect and research threaten marine life and their habitats. Um, so I'm also gonna make sure I share all of those things in our show notes 'cause I think that's great ways for people to be involved.
Um, and then before we end our conversation, Rachel, I have a few, um, what I call rapid fire ish questions to round out the, the conversation today. Um, the first question is, what are you reading right now?
Rachel: Um, I'm actually reading the Ministry of the Future.
Christine: Wow, that sounds very interesting. Is it fiction or nonfiction?
Rachel: it's fiction, which is a little too close to truth and it's a little worrisome. It's also, um, the first chapter is brutal. Uh, but yes, and then I.
Christine: you for sharing.
Rachel: Yeah. And, and just, just, I do, I do read, I do read kind of biographies and, and other things like that of, of influential, inspirational people like Eleanor Roosevelt.
She's amazing and super and what a lady, and a lot that we can learn from her, even though she's been gone for a very long time. So I try and balance out the reading, so.
Christine: Yeah. And I love for those listening to the podcast. If you could see over Rachel's, Rachel's shoulder, she has a giant bookshelf and like almost all the books are blue. And I was like, Hmm, is that intentional or is that because all books about marine are also blue? But um, yeah, I just was noticing that as we're talking, um, that.
Rachel: Also some of the artisanal sawfish from the ladies who are making these incredible artisanal sawfish that then support the release of the critically threatened sawfish in the most remote part of Central America, which is the Dianne and Panama, which is where a lot of the migrants are passing through to go north.
It's a, it's a, it's a really, it's a, it's a very difficult place, but these women are, uh, making these incredible, beautiful artworks. Everyone is individual. Anyway, that's above my head on the, on the bookcase next to the mandaree.
Christine: Yeah. Thank you. I wish we had so much more time to talk. I knew. Well, it's always hard for me to figure out like what we can talk about, but um, when I saw your keynote presentation I was like, oh, I wish she had like, at least another hour. And so I'm glad we got to expand on some of that here. But for people listening, I really would encourage them to make sure they visit, visit your site and they'll probably be lost like me reading all these articles on there.
Um, let's see. Back to my, see this is why they're rapid fire ish questions 'cause we already jumped out of, out of lane. Um, what is always in your suitcase or backpack when you travel?
Rachel: Uh, definitely, I, I always, always a water bottle, which actually I'm very grateful to the Venture Travel Conservation Fund because they help support some of our work, and they just gave me an amazing bottle, uh, from the company mirror. I was like, oh my God, it stays cold for like two days. I'm, I'm really grateful.
So that is definitely something that's in my backpack all the time.
Christine: Yeah. Um, to Sojourn, um, to me means to travel somewhere as if you live there. Uh, where is some place you would still love to sojourn?
Rachel: So being a Marine person, it, it's gonna, it's hard. I tell you, I've never been to Patagonia. I'd love to go. I, and then I do love to hike. So if I'm not actually at sea on the coast, I would love to go to Bhutan. I've heard it's amazing. And so, um, being the, uh, with the love of hiking that I have, I'll try to make that, uh, a reality.
Christine: Yeah. Thank you. Um, what is something that you eat that immediately connects you with a place that you've been?
Rachel: Kaho cabbage. Um, Cahoon Cabbage is a wonderful East Indian dish from Southern Belize that's prepared from the people who came over from. India proper to come and cut the sugar cane 150 or more years ago. And they learned to basically chop these palms, take the heart of palm, prepare them with turmeric and other spices, and it that with a kind of chicken with it, oh my goodness.
It is one of the most amazing dishes. And when I have a bite of that, I'm, I'm immediately transported home to Southern Belize.
Christine: I don't think I've ever had that there, so I'm going to have to make sure that I look
Rachel: Absolutely. Yes, you must.
Christine: Um, who is a person that inspired, or, we kind of talked about this, I guess, really, but encouraged you to set out to travel the world?
Rachel: Uh, it, I would say my mother, Christine McCallum. And, um, she actually wrote her autobiography, which I, which I absolutely love. It's, uh, it's, you are mostly welcome. I love that. Um, it's what one of her staff used to tell her, uh, years ago, and the other person is actually my grandmother, AUB Lee Graham, who came from very modest beginnings in Tennessee and rose to be one of the directors of the Library of Congress.
And she was a huge believer in self-betterment, in constantly learning. Very curious woman who also traveled very extensively around the world.
Christine: Thank you. I am gonna definitely look up your mom's book. That's so great. I appreciate you mentioning it. And um, okay. If you could take an adventure with one person, fictional or real, alive or past, who would it be?
Rachel: I feel so privileged to know so many amazing people that I would love to travel with. But I think now, um, my mother is, is she's, she's a, I wouldn't say she's a spring chicken anymore, so I would probably want to go and do one last fabulous, amazing travel, um, journey with my mom. I think she would really love that.
And, uh, yeah, yeah, probably not roughing it like we've done in the past, um, in the VW camper or intense, et cetera. Probably a little bit more luxury would be nice. So that's what I do.
Christine: Thank you. Um, the last question, soul of Travel is a space for recognizing women in the industry and celebrating their work. Who is one woman you admire and would like to recognize in this space?
Rachel: We've got, we've got a, a growing number of just remarkable women. And I, I, I can't even count on any one particular, um. My two national coordinators, uh, Kira Foreman in Belize. She's amazing. She's a daughter of fishermen. She rose to become the senior scientist in the whole Chan Marine Reserve in Belize and is now our national coordinator.
She's also a turtle, one of the world's turtle experts. I, I, I think she's amazing. Um, and Emma Hickerson, who was the lead researcher at the Flower Garden Banks Marine, uh, sanctuary is Australian by origin. Um, constant curiosity, incredible professional, uh, juggling. And this is the thing we all juggle as single mothers.
We've juggled chi, having children, raising children, having an incredible career, and, um, remaining curious, hopeful, joyful, and. Engaged.
Christine: Yeah. Thank you so much. I feel like that could have been the segue to a whole, a whole nother conversation. Um, but yeah, I appreciate so much this time and this connection, and again, I'm, I'm like, I'm ever grateful for the forces that how to sit down next to each other because, um, I've enjoyed getting to know you so far and I'm grateful to have this conversation be here in this space for my listeners to get to know you as well.
Um, thank you so much for being here.
Rachel: Christine, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for having me on and, um, I'm, let's continue the conversation, even if it's off the podcast. I look forward to being in touch and hopefully you'll come and join us in the field and let's see.
Christine: Yeah, I would love to do that. Thank you.
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