Episode 58 - Elisa Spampinato, Traveller Storyteller

Travel

Jan. 5

Historically, the travel story that is told to people is very sanitized. It reinforces a power hierarchy and creates conditions for an extractive relationship. Christine’s guest is sharing how her work helps people tell a different story that allows for a two way engagement that is not as extractive. Christine and her guest both love asking questions and believe it isn't always about finding the answer, but about finding a better question.

Christine is very excited to be joined by Elisa Spampinato. They had the pleasure of connecting at the Transformational Travel Council.

Elisa’s story is really representative of a lot of people that Christine speaks with because they really find themselves or tourism finds them because they're out there engaging with the world. Travel is less about going someplace and more about unwrapping and sharing the story of the world with others. Travel is this way to show the beauty, the story and people with others.

Elisa Spampinato is a Writer, Photographer & Gypsy Soul.

She is a travel writer who focuses on the untold stories of local communities with the purpose to unveil sustainable and regenerative practices at the grassroots level, discover ways to travel in a responsible way and prepare transformational encounters.

Elisa offers a Community Storytelling workshop specifically designed for Community-Based Tourism experiences, which aims to make the communities aware of themselves, preserve their cultural heritage and support the conservation of the natural environments while providing them with the tools that give voice to their own narratives and reach new potential visitors.

Elisa has many years of experience as a Community-Based Tourism expert and Sustainable Tourism professional.

Christine is so happy to bring this subject and this conversation to Soul of Travel.

In this conversation Christine and Elisa dive into:

Elisa’s story and how travel found her
What community based travel is and why it's important to focus on this topic
The two pillars of community based tourism
The power of storytelling
Why it's important to tell the stories of communities
The importance of asking who is telling the story
How storytelling helps in breaking down stereotypes
Ways to cultivate the stories of people and communities

Resources & Links Mentioned in the Episode

Want to learn more about Elisa and Traveller Storyteller HERE!

Traveller Storyteller launches its first campaign, Destination Community: Prepare your encounter with the People. Learn more HERE!

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About the Soul Of Travel Podcast

Soul of Travel honors the passion and dedication of the people making a positive impact in tourism. In each episode, you’ll hear the story of women who are industry professionals and seasoned travelers and community leaders who know travel is more than a vacation. It is an opportunity for personal awareness and it is a vehicle for change. We are thought leaders, action takers, and heart-centered change makers.

The guests work in all sectors of the tourism industry. You'll hear from adventure-based community organizations, social impact businesses, travel photographers and videographers, tourism boards and destination marketing organizations, and transformational travel experts. They all honor the idea that travel is more than a vacation and focus on sustainable travel, eco-travel, community-based tourism, and intentional travel.

These conversations are meant to educate, inspire and create community. They are directed to new travelers and seasoned travelers, as well as industry professionals and those who are curious about a career in travel.

If you want to learn about new destinations, types of travel, or how to be more intentional or live life on purpose, join Christine Winebrenner Irick for soulful conversations with her community of fellow travelers exploring the heart, the mind, and the globe. These conversations highlight what tourism really means for the world.

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Credits. Christine Winebrenner Irick (Host, creator, editor.) Hilary Matson (Guest). Original music by Clark Adams. Editing and production by Rayna Booth.

Transcript

KEYWORDS

tourism, community, story, travel, tourists, people, community based tourism, storytelling, experience, authentic, share, conversation, place

Christine Winebrenner Irick 00:08

Thank you for joining me for soulful conversations with my community of fellow travelers, exploring the heart, the mind and the globe. These conversations highlight what travel really means for the world. Soul of Travel honors the passion and dedication of the people making a positive impact in tourism. Each week, I'll be speaking to women who are tourism professionals, world travelers and leaders in their communities will explore how travel has changed them and how that has rippled out and inspired them to change the world. These conversations are as much about travel as they are about passion, and living life with purpose, chasing dreams, building businesses, and having the desire to make the world a better place. This is a community of people who no travel is more than a vacation. It is an opportunity for personal awareness, and it is a vehicle for change. We are thought leaders, action takers, and heart centered changemakers I'm Christine Winebrenner Irick. And this is the Soul of Travel.

Elisa Spampinato is a writer and trains others in storytelling for community based tourism. These are stories that connect us at a grassroots level stories that educate and create connection. Elisa does this work through her business traveler storyteller, where she is connecting travelers with traditional, indigenous, urban and rural communities around the world. In our conversation, we talk about the power of storytelling, as well as the importance of asking who is telling the story. Historically, the travel story that is told is very sanitized. It reinforces a power hierarchy and creates conditions for an extractive relationship that Elisa shares how her work helps us to tell a different story that allows for two way engagement that is not as extractive.

She and I both love asking questions and believe it isn't always about finding the answer, but about finding a better question. Join me now for my soulful conversation with the Elisa Spampinato. Welcome to Soul of Travel. I'm very excited today to be joined by Elisa Spampinato. And we had the pleasure of connecting in the Transformational Travel Council in the space of that. And so I feel like every conversation that has come out of that connection and community has been really treasured. So I'm excited today for everyone to join us and to hear about you. For those of you joining. Elisa is a writer and trains others in storytelling focused on community based tourism. And these are stories that really connect us at a grassroots level and are stories that are meant to both educate and create connections. So I'm so happy to bring this subject and this conversation to full of travel. So welcome.

03:39

Thank you, Christine, I'm pleased to be been invited to these to your podcast. And I know since we met, I met a great friend of fluids, etc. And then you our connection is like back doing the first lockdown. So I treasure this connection as well. So these students in a moment so intense, so I thank you, I'm very happy to be here and to share part of my work my experience and with the help to inspire and create some thought, some reflection on the subject.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 04:14

thank you. Yeah, and I definitely invite people and I know we'll we'll probably address this but much of this process, like you said is is about creating awareness, like setting up questions that we need to ask ourselves and ask of others. And so this is a very, I think should be a very thought provoking conversation and one that is really okay to not walk away with answers, but to walk away with questions. So we'll just stop.

04:44

Absolutely. So this is a time to to ask yourself question probably new kinds of questions to get new answers. So it is the right time for humanity, I would say in the tourism industry in particular. So yeah,

Christine Winebrenner Irick 04:58

well as we begin our Congress session, I would love to hear from you kind of what was your journey that brought you into travel or how to travel, find you? And then, and then a little bit about your work, and then we'll explore that more as we work through our conversation.

05:16

Yeah, perfect. Thank you. So I haven't started in tourism. Actually, I My background is in anthropology and social science. I'm a sociologist and anthropologist and my being I get involved with international cooperation with social projects at the grassroot level, I went to Brazil to finish my first master. And then I do another mastering Brazil and stay there for a few months, where that then when I met tourism, or tourism found me in a way because I cover communities in a very special environment in a way because usually, we think about traditional community in a rural area, the first time I met community involved with tourism, in urban urban environment in the, in the city of Rio de Janeiro, so, and I decided to do my my research, my dissertation on slum tourism, because I found it so fascinating. Because there there was only aspect I was working on the local development, the cultural issue, the tourism came by were very different different ways.

So sometimes was very restorative and destructive. And other times in other cases would actually something coming out from the grassroot and I heard at the time as long term is bad. So I usually try to avoid the One Direction answer or free for all. And I thought, oh, here, there is more, let me dig in. And I started to, you know, explore different favelas in Rio de Janeiro and I study, I did a case study of six, and that this dissertation became a book years later. So that is the way I found all tourism or tourists found me because I found it was a space where I could all my interest and my passion work coming together. So the anthropology studies know the culture, the economic development, itself, empowering of the community and community based tourism. So I found very interesting so and since then, I started working with it in Brazil, different kinds of community.

And then I went back to London, and from a big parenthesis where I was teaching Tai Chi actually, were while I was training structure, tai chi and qi gong, then I go back to tourism and community based tourism, it from a different perspective. So I, my journey with tourism was also different because I started from university, I started engaging in nine projects or the project initially just with a local NGO, international cooperation on the side. And then he went to when I moved to London, especially with voluntary tourism concern. So more campaigning awareness for me pro ethical tourism and responsible tourism, I'm talking about 2011 And then I had that gap, but then I go back in 2016, I get involved with gstc became a member did a lot of things, but from a different perspective until I decided to go into the trade because I was ending up talking also always with people that I grabbed we women, yeah, tourism can be a story today but also can be supportive can valid give value in in space, and help in the women empowerment and all the local development, cultural conservation, environmental protection, but when how because the big changes were happening was suddenly cutting for Australia. So they okay that now we are to move in another space.

So that's why I ended up working in communication and marketing. And me as an anthropologist, I never thought I'm going to end up working in marketing somehow I'm not a marketer, but I I work with local community. So I support them to tell their own story. And the file the space on an international and global level, where usually space, there aren't for different reasons. So yeah, that's why that's what I do, apart from telling the story because when I first moved to London, and I realized that in places where we were talking about ethical tourism and responsible tourism, these stories of these projects that I met in Brazil were in there. So I say this something there is a big gap here and is a language barriers a cultural barrier is the lack of marketing, your lack of contact is okay. So the story kind of asked me to be told so I have started telling the stories first in some blogs, tourism concern, also quality tourism, which I am an associate with and I carry on and decided in the lockdown. Okay, I have to do the This, this should become the main part of what I do the and then yeah, that's why I'm saying this my journey still continue. But what I do is this I tell the story of local community with them. So within a graphical approach rather, from here,

Christine Winebrenner Irick 10:16

yeah about them. Yeah, I love that. And I mean, I think your story actually is really representative of a lot of people that I speak with that kind of really find themselves, or tourism finds them because they're out there engaging with the world. And, and it's just for me, what I say a lot of times is that travel is less about going someplace, and more about unwrapping and staring, sharing the story of the world with others. And like that's, that's how I perceive travel is this way for me to show this beauty and the story and people with others. And so, and I also have a background in sociology, and I so I really understand that perspective, I think it immediately drops us into this, this space of being people focused and being culture focused, and starting to ask those same questions that you found yourself asking. And then, you know, you said it's interesting, you find yourself working in marketing, but really, as someone with your academic background, who is really able to tell those stories, and we start seeing marketing shifting towards the storytelling model, like 100% make sense? Now I'm sure like, as you follow the breadcrumbs, it doesn't make sense. But then when you look at it from a wider lens, and what I would love to do here to begin this conversation is really start to understand some of these things that started coming your way. You mentioned, you were working in responsible tourism, and you found yourself kind of like seeing these disconnects between place and people. But I would like to help people understand more. For instance, what does community based travel mean to you? And why is that focus? So important?

12:16

Yeah, thanks for the question, um, is a very valid question because he can mean different things in different places. So is this is because while we talk about some, for example, in Brazil, chemical history is a very strong political connotation, because it's used as a used literally as an instrument as a tool to affirm the identity of local minorities or cultural minorities, to affirm by identity. And so they use this term to talk about something that I will tell you in a second, because I kind of absorbed it from Brazil Latinamerica, while in Asia, this term might mean something slightly different.

Now, even though if you call it community tourism, a community based tourism community lead tourism, what we all agree and right now, we have also the big tour operators, the leader, world leaders, to operators of solo independent travel, like the adventures and travel day using this term, so something that is becoming more we've become more familiar with. So when we talk about community Tourism Committee based tourism, in the case I use it is when there is let's say, two pillars, one is fundamental, the second can be or not be there. The first is that the community has to be the protagonist. So meaning the community is in charge of the core design or design, design of experience is the one that gets the profit is the one who manages is the one that is in charge of development. So is, is not just the committee is not receiving passively tourist, because some others brought them there. And that they'll be given some pennies, let's say as a as a things. Now, if the other way around is a grassroots bottom up kind of experience. Of course, we can say 100% designed by that, because sometimes it's just the core design depends on the case. But the most important thing is the profit goes there to the community mainly and then the tour operator, they help to build that connection. They take part if the other way around, right, that model they used to run.

So the other pillar which I think is really important and not always unfortunately it's possible to have is the tourism is just a complimentary activity is not the main activity. These because these create that independence. So tourism, as I say that I use earlier the word used by community. Yes. Community when they are strong, they strong in themselves. plus identity they know they are the one what they know what they want. They are aware that tourism is a risk, put at risk, they own culture, they own roots, if become the main activity if the tourism so the money, the profit from tourism become the only goal is going on. Because we see in the past and many communities are aware of this, they risk they will risk to lose identity identity. So they don't want to do that. And no one should aim to build a project where it will destroy your leave on the sale, the traditionalist activity, it's now saying that sometimes in some cases, tourism became the main activity because was the way that the community used to survive or the pan in some cases of indigenous community, because they have no land yet to add the income from tourism to help support their own existence. But all the community they are aware of themselves that they know their history, and they know what tourism can be. They don't want everything to be the only activity because it's a contradiction, we want to visit the community because the community has a history as as a lifestyle. Traditional activity can might change during the year because of climate change because of the different distribution of land etc. But at the end of the day, tourism comes after, as to support and share what they are, which means all the traditional activity they are involved with, I don't want to really lose and sometimes lose, you actually helped them to rediscover those activity and you know, help in the cultural conservation. There are many examples of this.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 16:45

Hey, it's Christine. Interrupting this episode for a moment to make sure you know, you still have time to join our 2022 Lotus book sojourn. Hey, it's Christine. Interrupting this episode for a moment to make sure you know you still have time to Join our 2022 Lotus Book Sojourn This is a unique journey exploring the heart, the mind and the globe through the pages of nine specially selected books written by inspiring female authors. Your year long journey will include 18 guided virtual discussions with a community of light hearted women, as well as weekly journaling prompts and reflection, and an assigned travel companion for each book in the journey. Last year, women said this was one of the most surprising and impactful experiences they had. Join us for rich discussion, meaningful connection and opportunity for exploration from the comfort of your home, or wherever you might be in 2022.

Our first book club gathering on Zoom is January 12. Visit the website at www.lotus sojourns.com/book-sojourn to join today. Now back to our soulful conversation.

Yes, I mean, I think it's really important to understand that at the base of community tourism is either this collaboration or community driven focus of what is actually happening there. And so you know, as you mentioned, in a lot of places, this outside force is coming in and describing and controlling what tourism looks like. And then also through that really leading where the money goes. And in the traditional tourism model in these communities, most of the tourism dollar doesn't stay in that community. So like you said, this focus is on really ensuring that these communities receive the economic benefit first. And then the other thing that you said there that I think is so important, especially as we've seen through the this COVID pandemic, is that we don't create a model where communities are so dependent on tourism, that the loss of tourism is detrimental. And I mean, we've seen that happen greatly over the course of the last two years.

And so I think it's really, really important to examine how those structures have been put into place and asking the questions of how do we create a more self sustaining model? What are what are we asking of these communities? What can they create, and then build upon that we can enjoy with but not for the sole intention of tourism. And so it's been really interesting because I have seen through the communities, some of the communities that I work with where tourism has, you know, been inaccessible over the whole course of this time, tourists might not still be returning for, I don't know, you know, an untold amount of time still to some of these rural communities and things like they are creating regenerative agricultural practices that are very fundamental to these communities. But in the future, this might be a really interesting way to create a cultural connection where we can go in and see these projects that they've created.

Understand more like farm to table cuisine or how this kind of small, you know, suburban farming was created like that, as a tourism experience is something that's much more representative of the destination and his community lead and has a greater purpose for the community than, say, a traditional performance or something like that, that has, like you said, is much more extractive and isn't really kind of loses its actual true connection to the destination. So thank you for sharing that. Because I think that that is very helpful to understand. The other thing that I would love to look at is why storytelling is so important. And I know when we've talked in the past, you've mentioned because it is so immediate, it's such an easy way to create a connection. As humans, we understand stories like we are storytellers, right. This is how history has been shared over the course of of of our time, and things like poems and songs are ways that we, we remember the stories and share the stories. So why is it important to tell these stories? And what what does this create? What does this allow for?

21:22

Yeah, thanks for the question. Yes, we are all storytellers, we, our brain is made to absorb storytelling, the stories that we will learn about the world, we, we we connect, we understand the world and we lead so since ever, so this tells you a lot about the instrument, powerful instrument is that when we talk about communities even more important because you come to this aspect of these stories, most of the stories are not visible, and doesn't mean that they're not going to exist, but if they're not told, of course, from the eyes to the eyes of the tourists in existence, right.

And these are the stories that are more valued, they represent more value to those stories I really want to ever in our thing to experience and I use this word with with the with the times because I know that it's been overused but when we talk about a cultural experience, to me being and spending time in the community, urban or rural, modern or traditional is the most direct way to experience that community being a solid culture being with the people from the community spending time with them. This doesn't mean that everyone wants to do that kind of experience.

But if you look for the the culture in that place where you're going to visit and you're going to travel to you really need to spend time with people that live there and the community with tourism allow you to get to having a deep experience because it's not filtered and storytelling from them becomes very important because what happened even though for the experiment they already exist, if you don't tell the story, this becomes isolated so they the community experience is available but the tourists can get there the story can storytelling in particular can help to create this bridge and this bridge is not only knowledge, but is also preparation In which sense and and it exists in a way I like this a lot as well we know when we go and visit other places we may suffer a cultural shock right because we want to visit places that exotic out of you know out of our normal experience right so this mean that some times my we might be put in a place that okay, I don't know this what this means and this is good because you learn at the same time because we're talking about coming into a community and then coming in relation with people is important to whether a support I think to create this bridge and prepare yourself

24:13

because just to give an example so I was talking during the lockdown because I met a lot of community members through zoom during the lockdown I couldn't go anywhere, tap a lot. So I met this amazing woman she said my Pucci that she moved to Santiago. So in the city so long story my my poor chair, the majority living in the city. Unfortunately, we moved from the rural but that she had a strong connection with as Oldham a portrait with a lead. But then she told me that to come back to the point of the cultural clash or misunderstanding. I asked him at the end of our interview, say Tommy, you know, do you remember any weird question or something that a tourist may ask you that make you laugh or puzzled you or something say, Well, yeah, once One lady asked me, What do you sleep? So, like, asleep in a bed? You know, maybe people have this idea and was sleeping on a bunch of leaves. So I don't know. I mean, we human will leave it.

We had 1021 in the city of San Salvador, what do you think I sleep? This is some like, funny. But if you think well, if someone asked this kind of question means that we have, in our mind an idea of this traditional community, especially when we talk about indigenous, which is out of the world, like totally disconnected. And this comes back to what you were saying before culture changes that we are. So we have to admit and be prepared that we are this full conversational culture, these performances sometimes have been created, because tourists want to see that. But actually, that was something that is not real anymore, my OB in one day. So tourists should be more prepared to expect that the cultural change over time, they may still be nice, like to where they dress, the traditional dresses, but maybe no everyday, why not? Maybe they want to go to university, they open their own businesses, and these are permanent, a lot of cases even with the Cayenne, women in Nam In Thailand, they want to be interpreters, was nothing wrong with it, we have to be aware that you know, so telling the stories also tells you a story of a person, because in the first place is so hard to tell the story of the community.

And on the first day, I'm not about in the individualization. So I need to Okay, the individual individuals, the person, before the community, for me is the opposite. But when you are to tell a story, the community is so diverse has a lot of power dynamics within it. A lot of the story and the layers that you cannot tell the story of the community, what is the story of activity is much easier to help the tourists to connect with another individual. And that's what I do. So one to one human to human and through the story of another human being, you can maybe start to understand what her or his community is. So his dimension, a context. So that's why I will invite everyone to read the story of Ganga Salah that I shared last year, just to have an idea. You see this woman, you might visit her by you to know what is behind what is background, you know, their memory by grandparent why she moved to Santiago, she might have more time to tell you all these in one month visit for example. So she's very happy to share the story. But sometimes there is no time. So his story can help to bridge that gap and to connect human to human. So and it's very powerful because storytelling is powerful, because allow this connection. Yeah. Direct, unfiltered. Yeah.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 27:55

It just you reminded me of I remember when I was really little I grew up in Montana in the United States, which is very rural. It's also really depicted as kind of rugged Western cowboy. Even when I was young, I remember someone saying, Oh, do you ride a horse to school? Like, what are you talking about? Like, no, I don't ride a horse to school, like, where is that image being painted? Or where what? Where is that context coming from? And I just remember, I think this was the beginning maybe of my like sociological, inclination, it was like, how, how is this being represented, represented? And where did they pick up this filter or, you know, way of seeing a particular place. And you know, this is kind of the next thing that I wanted to talk about is how storytelling really helps to break down stereotypes. Looking at who is telling the story is really important. Stepping away from these kind of dominant narratives of travel, which, for example, might be this thing that I just shared about, you know, living in Montana and riding a horse to school or the story you shared where, you know, you're indigenous, you must be sleeping, like not in a house in a bed, like where do Where do those stories come from? And then also looking at the way that the story of travel is told now, which or historically has been very sanitized, has a reinforces power hierarchies creates the conditions for these extractive relationships that we were talking about, like very one sided conversations or performance is or even if you're storytelling, it's not a two way exchange. And so I would just love to talk a little bit about that, like how does your work and educating both sort retailers and local communities to tell their story how does that kind of break down some of this dominant narrative?

30:10

Right, thanks, thanks for the question because I think is, is really crucial, especially in the moment we are. So I think the image that we have of places is becoming what it is not because the indices are bad, right? Because it's simple doing this, because as a human, when we have, we do that we have all stereotypes about German, Italian, Spanish in our head, there is something that he can, you know, summarize what the culture is. And of course, when you visit the place, you will realize if you visit once, you know, if you open mind, you will understand that they do this one case, and you know, the picture is bigger now, when we talk about marketing, when we talk about how we present plays a destination. Now, I realize that this top down kind of way you're presenting it is also a result of that lack of time is also a result of lack of skills. Because when, so what I propose is to kind of rethink the travel marketing in a way that is really from bottom up.

So the grassroots should be the ones talking about themselves presented to this nation because first of all, this nation is not just the place this nation is made of beautiful nature, of course, and you know, all the natural environment biodiversity, but also people meaning culture, mean tradition, media lifestyle, so why don't involve them in the presentation with explanation why also, these will give an extreme advantage, I'm talking about competitive advantage to the destination itself, when you ask to present yourself, you know, to the tourists, because when we look south, by South America, we have a lot of images, they are kind of similar, I wouldn't say you can put together two images and oh, there's a beautiful sunset and it can be Chile but also can be Argentina or could be in Peru. So what makes the place really unique is the culture or the people so what I'm trying to do with my work is actually adding to that one direction and Parsh narrative other narratives which are from the bottom up so is is an award as I was saying before is a work that takes time of course is longer but in fact the work that I do with the community is CO creating because as we now talking about core designing experiences finally after decades of presenting a product to the community and you know, using the community, you know, and other you know, top down we start talking about core designing experiences finally, but then now we start we should start talking about CO designing the marketing and this is it comes after No it's just natural, because if you present an experience or if you could design spirits but this experience is not it's presented in a way it is and you try to use other modular web experiences to talk about that experiences doesn't work.

So this is a quite innovative concept I understand then every time I talk with people some people agree yes of course by who's going to do that because usually is easier to send someone in a place and do a brief you know description of what it is then actually having someone there for a while that can actually create and CO create the way the experience will either use and will be presented because and is when I work with community because this work I do we commend you because I am a storyteller but I don't want to be the only community storyteller. So in my ideal world I won't be necessary there will be of course I will write my story but of my experiences but also the majority will be community members telling their own story presenting my own community based tourism project to tourists and when I talk to them in the first place I say okay, you are sorry Taylor for writing you don't need anyone else to come here and tell your story you are now also how you can tell the story is up to you you don't need to other mastering journalist to tell a story and you can tell it because it talks about experience the most direct and the most the less filter better so can be a song a picture video. So the way you presented experience you know as a marketing tool, so using the storytelling a marketer can be cannot be friend for so and that opens up and you see the sparkles in the eye.

Okay, yeah, great. So opens up possibility. I don't know Do much into your workshop, in a way, I just give them or you open the door say, Look, your creativity is the way you are the story I can help you guide you in this process. And I you know, but at the end of the day, if you show them that there is a everyone we are clear with being we are gentle as a human. That's what makes it different from the animals, right? We create that on this before. And once you assume and you recognize the power that you have, the sky's the limit and beyond. So it is incredible to see how empowering is the storytelling for them. Because in this case, until now, the main experience I had is like when I'm talking to them and ask him about a story and creating a story with them based on this experience. But simple things the moment I published a story and they see the story published, and they asked my relatives to translate it for them. Because usually English is not a mainland of the first language, even though the second but they kind of say, Oh, this might be or it's been published might be, you know, interesting, something. So it's great. So you see that they actually are empowered by the experience. Because they say, Oh, my story is important.

And tourism has been showing, you know, in the practical and I have a lot of example, being involved in a tourism experience that give the opportunity to the community to understand the value that I cultural a present because everyone I was born close to Rome. And for me, all the history I have around me was kind of taken for granted. There is always up now when you see, you know, tourists coming from miles away and visiting a village and say, oh, oh, well, yeah, they talk about it. Oh, yeah, it's painted from Turner, I'll see in the National Gallery in London, let's be, of course for the community, they usually have the Yharnam reference, which doesn't need to be international, not always it is. So understanding, kind of stepping out of our community and see how important is the cultural, this is something this is something that happens very often when they start involving themselves with tourism. So this is important. So this is an important part of this. But there's another aspect and about the storytelling and empowering is because even before writing and publishing a story when they tell their own story to me when I asked them.

Remember, when you were a child, which kind of activity you were doing, what do you like to do? Like, you ask this to someone, someone that has kind of not forgot, but is lived all her life in another environment. Coming back to that moment, you can see even through the through a screen that you brought her back. So the story to see a retailer they own story helped her to Gary, kind of in a way I use this, this this term, I say that I give the story back to them. While they're telling me my story. So make sense. They kind of say, Oh, this is my story. This is me. Oh, what a dumb look at what I've done in my lifetime. You know? So yeah, that's powerful for me as well. Witnessing that. Yeah,

Christine Winebrenner Irick 38:25

to hear. There's a strength in finding your own voice hearing your story having it witnessed and that gives it some next level of importance internally and externally. I know through the work that I do on my sojourns, like a huge part of it is focusing on bringing women to meet with women in wherever we're traveling, often artisans, because I really love how that connection both allows for like this human to human understanding and Woman to Woman understanding. But also when you bring in the artists and part of it then you're looking at culture and language and storytelling, because so many times the the process of creating the art is the storytelling like that's the passing of a story from generation to generation, either literally or figuratively, through the symbolism that's maybe woven or carved. And so I love that idea of thinking about bringing more power to that process. And I have I remember sitting down with a group of Weaver's in Guatemala, and they were trying to teach me how to do embroidery.

And they had assumed we were going to be able to accomplish this huge project. Because it's really easy for them, right? They're like, Oh, yeah, we'll do this and this and this in two hours. And like two hours in I think we've embroidered like this much. And they were kind of laughing and then also like, what are we going to do here because we're clearly never finishing this. And I think that extends experience allows them also to see, to take away the idea that it's easy, right? They, they maybe think it's easy because it's something they're doing every day. And it's passed down. But when they see me attempting to do it, they realize that this isn't necessarily easy, right. And so that process is also very empowering. And in sharing, I wanted to also speak about, kind of, from the marketing perspective, or the storytelling perspective, using words like, authentic or local are kind of like these quick ways of tapping a consumer into an experience that we've kind of, we fall back on, right, because it's easy.

We think this automatically paints a picture. But really, there's so much room for interpretation, right? What does authentic mean? What does local mean? And it's almost again, like, it's asking us to be storytellers, instead of saying local, what do we mean? Who is local? What is local mean? Authentic? What do we mean by authentic? Like, what am I actually saying to you, like, if I'm saying that we're going to participate in an authentic craft, could I instead say, we're going to sit down with Weaver's who have lived on this land for four generations who are going to teach us to dye this, this cloth with local, you know, dies and share a meal that's locally produced, you know, that's what authentic means. But we're just like, trying to one off market it. So we just say that word. But in, in reality, painting that picture, the storytelling is going to drop our our traveler into this experience. And one, they're going to know if it's for them, because their depiction of iPhone six, they might be like, Yes, that's what I want. But really, nope, they don't want that, or, yes, they really want that.

And now they know what they're getting. And so I think, you know, not assuming that those kinds of words are bad or overused and shouldn't be used, but like, why are we using them in the first place? And what do we really mean? I just think that's an interesting way, again, to like to start asking questions, you know, not putting a label on something being overused or cliche or whatever. But why why are we using it? What story? Are we trying to tell? What message are we trying to communicate? And can we just do that instead? Like, don't take the shortcut, let's go ahead and get like, really, you know, use all of our words and our language and our connection tools and really invite people into the literal story of a place.

42:47

Totally, I couldn't be more accurate, couldn't agree more what you just say, we'd all now I want to just to clarify that I usually, I usually I use the word authentic with a very political, strong political connotations. So for me, our authentic is only when the community is kind of out arising. That or your community is involved, but because then meaning it comes from the grassroot, of course, if you start using the authentic is becoming, you know, maybe already risco everyone using it, what that means. And I totally agree as a storyteller, you just don't use the word you describe it, what that means in that case, and that description should be the reflection of what the community is happy to share, and what the community identify itself with. Because authentic is something that has to come from the grassroot I mean that I use it in political science and to make an you know, a statement, I kind of use authentic from my imagination. So the authentic is only what is coming from there is already existing before me go in there and doesn't exist because I'm going there exists regardless me.

And that, I think is my pre you know, my bias definition authentic in this case, but I agree, I wouldn't use it because especially in the marketing, I wouldn't use it, I use it. Usually in article were actually talking about the issue and you know, philosophically, but when I'm presenting experience authentic should be there because it doesn't say anything, or is beautiful is something I do in my watch, like what do you talk how do you present your place? I don't use that what is beautiful for me, it might not be beautiful for someone else, the beauty is something very relative and culturally related and socially related, is relative, I mean to cultural and social. Sometimes we have a family. So is is very relative. It can be everything and nothing so and yes, I agree with you. Let's pay into what actually that is in real terms, because we'll attract the right People, so there will be a kind of a way of engaging already. So as far as this is a bridge, you know, you're you're building already because you're describing what actually is going to be manner attract everyone. You know, I'm okay with that I attract people, they happy to know that more about this and experiences and stuff. So yeah, totally. Well,

Christine Winebrenner Irick 45:21

I just looking I'm like, This always happens people are listening are like, Oh, here's the time where Christine says, Oh, we're almost out of time. And how did it happen so quickly, but, again, but why we have kind of dived in a little bit to your workshops, you kind of mentioned how you cultivate those stories with people. But I just wanted to give you a moment to talk a little bit more specifically that you do offer community storytelling workshops. Can you just share who that's for and what service that provides, so that people know a little bit more specifically about the work you do? Yeah,

45:59

thank you for that. Well, the committee's storytelling workshop is directed to community based tourism project, also supported by tourists board, local government or regional government or DMS DMC DMO. So everyone who want to support those kinds of project because the students of the workshop or the community members, people involved in tourism, so either to guide the local enterpreneur, someone that has an you know, an ideal product or one T, you know, involved in an existing project or creating a new one. And the idea is like, these workshops, Hain to give the tools to this protagonist, to tell him their own story themselves using it as a using the story as a as a marketing tool. So these meaning that in different some cases, this is a workshop that I do with, with a region, sometimes in one community, or sometimes in a different community thinking about a Core Design Workshop, yeah, to present a new idea or ideas of marketing.

So this is actually the grassroot moto map, travel marketing, and I'm kind of presenting as an idea, which is totally innovative, totally revolutionary, because it's taken over time, but actually will give something more different, I wouldn't say eliminate the other one. But this is a kind of an addition to that. So from top down to bottom up, we meet and we have a bigger picture of what actually is the destination. So this is the idea. That's why helps also a community to understand what marketing is is not a selling is like communicating is bigger for some community marketing is a bad word. So is the is and then So marketing is support them as to be seen as an instrument, allow building, you know, this connection, building this this bridge, like welcoming the right tourists. So that's why it's important that you tell your own story, because you will attract the tourists that you want to attract is up to you. The community may decide I want this kind of tourist and not this one.

And I present what we do in a certain way. So the engagement is okay, the the build the bridge will be right for the right people. So this is a bit is a bit of what I do in a workshop. And thanks for the question, because I think is something is very powerful when I've seen practice one thing, and this is an ongoing process, and people once they learn doing it will start experimenting is multimedia is is they see that, really the sky's the limit. And I will collaborate more on the local level as well amongst them as interpreter and with external support its operators.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 48:52

I really I love that. And I feel like for me, I really want to play around with this idea as well bringing it into my business because I feel like I often have a hard time communicating the story I want to tell because I'm trying to use this traditional model. And it's not allowing for I can't fit my like peg into that hole. It just doesn't work. And so something gets lost in the translation because I'm trying to do kind of both things and they're not I'm not doing either one quite the right way. And so I love this like really thinking about how can I invite the women that I'm connecting with to be the people that talk about this journey and what it means to them and and telling their story.

And so I'm really excited for the doors that this opens both in terms with connecting with travelers, but in allowing communities to really take the reins and like you said Let letting them dictate who comes and setting this precedent that when we choose Travel, it is not out of a sense of entitlement or our ownership of this experience. It is as a welcomed guests to each community that needs to be done respectfully and carefully and thoughtfully and mindfully. And I think when we start to approach travel with that intention is when we're really going to see travel become much more healing and much less extractive. So I really appreciate so much this conversation, I wish that we had more time but in the future, perhaps we can pick one of these ideas and go a little deeper. But I'm also happy to perhaps be leaving people with questions that they can ask and definitely to reach out to you. If this has, you know, sparked some curiosity if they want to have a better understanding of this way of connecting. Before we go one I want you to let people know how they can reach out to you and then to I have just a series of rapid fire questions that we're going to end our conversation with. So at least if you can let people know where they can find you.